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If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Not often, but there is always that awful time you roll snake eyes, and coupled with Vulcan allowing MC meltas again, it guarantees any vehicles withing melta range WILL be blown up.

I'm already thinking how much damage 5 multi-melta devs in a drop pod can do.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Not often, but there is always that awful time you roll snake eyes, and coupled with Vulcan allowing MC meltas again, it guarantees any vehicles withing melta range WILL be blown up.

I'm already thinking how much damage 5 multi-melta devs in a drop pod can do.

None, because 5 MM Devs in a pod is illegal.

Crazyterran wrote:

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Every. Fricking. Time.

My old fluff build for Raven Guard is becoming a real viable build. I except people to accuse me of bandwagoning soon.

Scout troops (now with stealth in addition to bolstered defenses from a TFC), freed up spot in Fast Attack with the Storm becoming a dedicated transport, HQ going with jump infantry, scout bikers.

This pleases me.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Not often, but there is always that awful time you roll snake eyes, and coupled with Vulcan allowing MC meltas again, it guarantees any vehicles withing melta range WILL be blown up.

I'm already thinking how much damage 5 multi-melta devs in a drop pod can do.

None, because 5 MM Devs in a pod is illegal.

...you know what I meant

But seriously, 5 devs, 4 multi meltas + a combi-melta on the sgt, all basically twin-liked with armor re-rolls, all for155 pts...

Land Speeder Storms moving to Dedicated Transports is such a no-brainer decision, and I'm happy to see it.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Land Speeder Storms moving to Dedicated Transports is such a no-brainer decision, and I'm happy to see it.

I really can't +1 this enough.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.

Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.

Yes and the "Grav Cannons" are on Centruions, witch are S&P

yes my point, so 5 twinlinked shots that wound on 2,3+?

Say you have 3 centurians firing at a riptide
13.33 hits
11.11 wounds
7.40 wounds after the 5++
dread riptide

or against a stock wraithknight
13.33 hits
8.66 wounds
dead wraithknight

Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.

It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tvih wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Every. Fricking. Time.

when outside melta range? all the time


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

rerolling meltas isnt nearly as good as ultramarines rerolling just about everything.

I must have missed the post where we learned the grav gun's stats.

I said ONE of the top builds, not THE top build...

No new pictures. Sad panda.

Enjoying the rules rumors discussion, though. Hopeful for a smoother WS bike army.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.

Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?

How is it wrong? The post I was responding to claimed that his entire collection was 'invalidated' by having to add a Captain. In your case, you had 7 squads of bikes, now you will have 5. That's certainly not an 'entire colection' invalidated.

As for that being sufficient reason to be pissed off about it... If you built them last week, sure. If you have been using this army for any length of time, well, you built them for a purpose, and you used them for that purpose. Editions come and go. If you choose to switch to the new edition (and that is by no means compulsory) then you just have to accept that your army will need to change. Because that's what happens every time a codex is revised, or the core rules change. If that's something that enrages you, you're possibly playing the wrong game.

Don't forget the bike command squads...

If the rumours are true, I'm seeing a White Scars force as being the following:

2 Captains
2 Command squads (5 bikes apiece)
2 9-man bike squads as troops
1 9-man bike squad as FA

This still leaves you with 2 FA slots left for more bikes, speeders, attack bikes and the like, and you've got 34 bikes, 3 attack bikes and 2 bike characters in your list. You could add another 16 bikes and 2 attack bikes at the cost of your last FA slots as well for a total of 57 bikes. At that point you've got to be approaching the 2k mark and another FoC. Those bikes will also be significantly tougher and nastier than they were before...

In addition I'm seeing the LSS as a dedicated transport being a great boon for the WS, as it feels like a great way to add more troops cheaply while fitting the theme of the force.

I'm thinking that the following would be reasonable for somewhere between 1.5 and 2 k:

- 2 bike captains
- 1 biker command squad
- 2 full bike squads as troops
- Sniper scout unit
- Assault scout unit in a LSS
- Land speeders, attack bikes, scout bikes or just more bike squads to taste
- Support tanks (Whirlwind, AA tanks?)

It's not ideal but it is doable, and of course there's the very strong possibility of this changing again with a White Scars mini-dex.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

You have no idea how often you dearly wish you could. And I'm the one on the receiving end, when I see someone failing pen my armor 1'' away, even I feel bad.

Tigurius at 165?

That is sooo wrong but it feels so right. I want. Him and Pedro, load those sternguard into a stormraven, take biomancer powers, reroll until you get power 2, 3, and 4 (or 1), and then enjoy relentless special ammo bolters, IWND, FNP, the enemy they're charging is at minus 1 str and toughness, and you either get high str force attacks and EW on tigurius, or shots that give us wounds back.

So very right.

 Hedgehog wrote:
If the rumours are true, I'm seeing a White Scars force as being the following:

2 Captains
2 Command squads (5 bikes apiece)
2 9-man bike squads as troops
1 9-man bike squad as FA

This is impossible as each Captain only allows you to take up to 5 Bikes as a Troops choice.

 insaniak wrote:
Because that's what happens every time a codex is revised, or the core rules change.

You obviously don't understand the difference between making a choice of your own free will because your unit got nerfed (what happens every time a Codex is revised) and been forced to shelf hundreds of euros worth of your models with no choice at all (something that rarely happens with an update, but is happening here). You can choice to use a sub-par unit if you want, however I imagine 99% of opponents would have qualms about me using illegal models.

Wow if any of what I just read is true space marines just got serious. Any codex not written in 6th ed. Is not going to even be playable now...

rothrich wrote:
Wow if any of what I just read is true space marines just got serious. Any codex not written in 6th ed. Is not going to even be playable now...

To be fair, BA have been unplayable since 6th first came out anyway...

rothrich wrote:
Wow if any of what I just read is true space marines just got serious. Any codex not written in 6th ed. Is not going to even be playable now...

Tyranids will still be fine. And then they'll get gooder soon enough.

 Exergy wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.

Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.

Yes and the "Grav Cannons" are on Centruions, witch are S&P

yes my point, so 5 twinlinked shots that wound on 2,3+?

Say you have 3 centurians firing at a riptide
13.33 hits
11.11 wounds
7.40 wounds after the 5++
dread riptide

or against a stock wraithknight
13.33 hits
8.66 wounds
dead wraithknight

Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.

It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.

I just have to point out that they don't get twin linked grav cannons, they get a grav cannon and a grav amp which lets them re roll failed wounds.

40k Radio wrote:Q: Has auxillary grenade launcher changed?
A: 24" rapid fire.

My captain is very happy.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You can say this over and over until you are blue in the face, but it is still an incorrect statement. What happens every time a Codex is revised is some units get nerfed and people make a choice of their own free will to dump those units and take something else.

With the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, my Tarantulas and Mole Mortars all became unusable.
With the change from 3rd to 4th, Lasplas Razorbacks were suddenly not an option, and everyone running Chapter Approved Chapters found themselves with illegal lists.
With the change from 4th to 5th, my Marine army that included Apothecaries in every squad was suddenly illegal.

That's just the ones straight off the top of my head. I'm fairly sure there are more that I'm not remembering right now due to insufficient sleep and/or coffee...

This is not even close to the White Scars predicament, as there is no choice been given to players with an old army by GW.

Sure there is. Keep using the current codex, or put those extra squads aside for bigger games. Or, as someone else posted, look at running them as Command Squads instead.

Get the difference between nerfed and invalidated, get the difference between choice and no choice, then we can talk. If you can't see the difference between the two then we've nothing left to talk about. Then again it's easy to say such things when it's not your money left to gather dust on the shelf.

I've been playing this game since 1994. My Marine army has changed significant;y in every single edition so far. I expect it to change significantly in every edition to come.

 Exergy wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.

Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.

Yes and the "Grav Cannons" are on Centruions, witch are S&P

yes my point, so 5 twinlinked shots that wound on 2,3+?

Say you have 3 centurians firing at a riptide
13.33 hits
11.11 wounds
7.40 wounds after the 5++
dread riptide

or against a stock wraithknight
13.33 hits
8.66 wounds
dead wraithknight

Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.

It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.

Well first of all presuming that they would get 5 TL AP2 shots that wound on 2's each is very optimistic and second of all, I'd like you to know how many times the price of a Riptide that would cost, the range of those weapons (36'' or bust basically) and the fact that they're crap at shooting anything else, while being extremely vulnerable to return fire as Riptides get S8 AP2 pie plates and they have no invulnerable. So either sit in cover you have to invest many points into, go to ground or sit in a convenient building you won't always have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

Pfft you mean the worst.

Vehicles are rarely seen in this edition anyway and a melta unit is crap at anything else. Riptide? You dun goofed.

Plasma (and if the hype is true, Grav) is the name of the game in 6th. I'd just take a set of Tri-Las Predators over a clumsily implemented melta drop pod squad anyday. That way I can still kill a Riptide a turn and handle optimistic vehicle users and MC's with equal measure.

In addition, flamer weapons are unreliable, require you to get close and only really come into their own against GEQ. In an all comers list you will not see flamers unless they are absurdly cheap and in a drop pod - and if they're the only part of your army that truly benefits from the trait, you won't take it.


I predict the best Chapter Tactics will be Raven Guard for stealth abuse, Iron Hands for the FNP buff and the Ultramarines Tactical/Devastator ones for the massive Tactical buff and footslogging Devastators.

Imperial Fists get the gutter end because the Tank Hunter aspect isn't anything to cheer about if your opponent doesn't field any, and in that case you've just got a weaker version of the UM Tactical buff, which gives you re-rolls on all ones.

If these rumours are even close to being true then I am glad to start a new allied detachment for my DA (well to be honest, I do already have a small detachment of Templars). My local FLGS is already getting ready for the release, and everyone is pretty excited (except the nids and chaos players, but the nids guys will be happy soon too).

 insaniak wrote:
With the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, my Tarantulas and Mole Mortars all became unusable.
With the change from 3rd to 4th, Lasplas Razorbacks were suddenly not an option, and everyone running Chapter Approved Chapters found themselves with illegal lists.
With the change from 4th to 5th, my Marine army that included Apothecaries in every squad was suddenly illegal.

That's just the ones straight off the top of my head. I'm fairly sure there are more that I'm not remembering right now due to insufficient sleep and/or coffee...

 insaniak wrote:
I've been playing this game since 1994. My Marine army has changed significant;y in every single edition so far. I expect it to change significantly in every edition to come.

A few examples with a few more in reserves; that's fine but doesn't nearly equate to "what happens every time a Codex is revised" as you had stated previously.

And sure it has happened to you a few times, but that doesn't mean it was a good move by GW. If anything I sympathise with you more for having to deal with it more.

 insaniak wrote:
Sure there is. Keep using the current codex, or put those extra squads aside for bigger games.

You have to realize this is not an option for everybody, so isn't a very good solution IMO. Standard rules of the game say you use the most up to date Codex. It's great that you might be able to play with old dexes whenever you like, but people over here aren't the same.

 insaniak wrote:
Or, as someone else posted, look at running them as Command Squads instead.

This is one option I am looking at. Since there are about 3 pages between my initial post to you and your response above you probably missed the updated White Scars rumours and my musing on how they might make up for the loss we've suffered a good bit. I'm still super peeved at GW, but even if I complain about it here, in practice I'm going to get on with it and make a new list. We all need a platform to vent after all

Q: Have TH/SS termies gone up in price?
A: TH/SS Terminators cost +5 points

Was this really necessary with how easily they die now? Sadface....

Q: are drop pods still 12 to a pod?
A: Dop pod is back to 10.

This also gives me a sadface.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Vehicles are rarely seen in this edition anyway and a melta unit is crap at anything else. Riptide? You dun goofed.

Plasma (and if the hype is true, Grav) is the name of the game in 6th. I'd just take a set of Tri-Las Predators over a clumsily implemented melta drop pod squad anyday. That way I can still kill a Riptide a turn and handle optimistic vehicle users and MC's with equal measure.

rarely see vehicles, but you are gong to take a set of preds...

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Vehicles are rarely seen in this edition anyway and a melta unit is crap at anything else. Riptide? You dun goofed.

Plasma (and if the hype is true, Grav) is the name of the game in 6th. I'd just take a set of Tri-Las Predators over a clumsily implemented melta drop pod squad anyday. That way I can still kill a Riptide a turn and handle optimistic vehicle users and MC's with equal measure.

rarely see vehicles, but you are gong to take a set of preds...

Was just about to post this

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Vehicles are rarely seen in this edition anyway and a melta unit is crap at anything else. Riptide? You dun goofed.

Plasma (and if the hype is true, Grav) is the name of the game in 6th. I'd just take a set of Tri-Las Predators over a clumsily implemented melta drop pod squad anyday. That way I can still kill a Riptide a turn and handle optimistic vehicle users and MC's with equal measure.

rarely see vehicles, but you are gong to take a set of preds...

A rare proposition, and they have a rare talent in this edition. You don't need re-rollable meltaguns to kill a 140 point Predator, and I'm only still considering taking them.

All the Tau players I've seen don't prefer to field vehicles, they'll keep with things like Riptides. Eldar will field Wave Serpents and Prisms maybe but tank hunters will make little difference at all as they have some weird rules that neuter AT weaponry. Mechanized Space Marine armies don't work and aren't seen anymore. Imperial Guard vehicle heavy armies are extremely rare and their side armor sucks.

I've gone to two tournaments over the last 3 months and played 8 games between them. They were:

War of the Roses Tournament with the ETC team, 1850 points:

1) Tyranid MC spam Nids
2) Blood Angels assault marine list. He brought no ground vehicles.
3) A CSM Nurgle list with two Rhinos. He didn't come back for day 2 and I wiped the floor with him.
4) A C:SM Flyer circus with no ground vehicles
5) A CSM list with one badly implemented Mauler Fiend and two MC's forming the brunt, safe to say he did poorly

The only vehicle spam army was the guy playing Dark Eldar and I'm unsure how well he did, all I know is he didn't win - that was the Codex Daemons flying circus.

Tournament 2, 1250 points doubles, Warhammer World:
1) Double Riptide Tau and Dreadnought drop pod abuse Marines. They won against us but lost their other two matches, and when we played our third match up against some pleasant blokes they remarked about how they were blatantly cheating, although we didn't notice it ourselves.
2) Fortress of Redemption Marines plus IG. They holed up inside it and sent forth Vendettas. Their only land vehicle was a Land Speeder. They weren't playing competitively and didn't do great overall.
3) Eldar with no vehicles bar a flyer.

*The team, 'Tanks R Us' who won the 1500 Doubles Tournament with land slide victories back in 5th came back and won one, lost one and drawed one. They were practically the only army abusing vehicle spam at the entire event.