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neconn av 13 spam,
Preds, (vanilla and BA)
land raiders (yes there are people who take them)


Probably mostly depends on who or where you play. I will see lots of armor, because people in my area like armor...

But i found the comment funny...

Brother Weasel wrote:
neconn av 13 spam,
Preds, (vanilla and BA)
land raiders (yes there are people who take them)


Probably mostly depends on who or where you play. I will see lots of armor, because people in my area like armor...

But i found the comment funny...

Vehicle Spam is one of the few builds still decent for BA

Any decent IG player has a ton of tanks and would be hard pressed NOT to field at least a few

Flyers, flyers, flyers.

Land Raiders have been in many lists now ever since Heldrakes became common, and Broadsides got nerfed.

So, if I'm getting this right, a Vulkan army will basically reroll failed hit, wound and armor pens rolls with all of its meaningful special/heavy weapons? Ultramarines can make all their tac squads twin link their weapons and "1.5-link" everything else, on top of what appears to be blanket price cuts?

That sounds...like a bad internet fandex. I guess we'll have to see how it ultimately turns out, but if these look to be true, I certainly wouldn't see a reason to use C:CSM unless playing a dedicated Cult Legion army

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, if I'm getting this right, a Vulkan army will basically reroll failed hit, wound and armor pens rolls with all of its meaningful special/heavy weapons? Ultramarines can make all their tac squads twin link their weapons and "1.5-link" everything else, on top of what appears to be blanket price cuts?

That sounds...like a bad internet fandex. I guess we'll have to see how it ultimately turns out, but if these look to be true, I certainly wouldn't see a reason to use C:CSM unless playing a dedicated Cult Legion army

Well at the moment C:SM sucks and has done since at least Christmas, and universal MEQ based armies are stuck at the bottom of the toilet and almost unplayable in many occassions. If Crudhead actually has the balls to pull rules like this out of his arse then I'll be pleased.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

You obviously don't understand the difference between making a choice of your own free will because your unit got nerfed (what happens every time a Codex is revised) and been forced to shelf hundreds of euros worth of your models with no choice at all (something that rarely happens with an update, but is happening here).

You have a choice... you simply don't want to go through with the effort. That IS your choice but don't claim that you're not making one. If you've only got a Khan mini for a captain, all it takes to make your army legal is to buy a single bike squadron and make 3 more captains from your left over bits so you can field over 100 bikes on two force orgs. That's a hell of alot cheaper than shelving your "hundred euros" of figures. No one is claiming that its a perfect or even optimal choice but you're treating it as if GW said you simply can't field more than 5 bikes in an army.

 Exergy wrote:
Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.

It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.

Supposedly, the Grav Cannon isn't twin-linked. Instead, Centurions get a Grav Cannon and a Grav Amp in their package. If I recall, the Grav Amp allows you to reroll damage, not hits. I don't remember where I saw that rumor, but it was around the time the Centurions appeared. So three Centurions are getting ten hits on average, with 1.667 potential immobilized/hull point lost results. I'm too lazy to do the math on the rerolls, but on average, the Centurions should be shaving off about 3 hull points a turn, right?

If that's not bad enough, depending on the wording of the Grav effect, it could be even worse. If it's true that each 6 when rolling for damage produces an immobilized result and removes a hull point, then each hit after the first is knocking off two--one from the effect itself and one because each immobilized result after the first knocks one off too. So, with average rolls, Centurions can take out a Land Raider, and with worse than average rolls, a Russ.

That is, of course, if the Grav Amp allows rerolls for damage and if the Grav Weapon effect is worded in such a way as to not preclude stripping two hull points with each hit.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, if I'm getting this right, a Vulkan army will basically reroll failed hit, wound and armor pens rolls with all of its meaningful special/heavy weapons? Ultramarines can make all their tac squads twin link their weapons and "1.5-link" everything else, on top of what appears to be blanket price cuts?

That sounds...like a bad internet fandex. I guess we'll have to see how it ultimately turns out, but if these look to be true, I certainly wouldn't see a reason to use C:CSM unless playing a dedicated Cult Legion army

Well at the moment C:SM sucks and has done since at least Christmas, and universal MEQ based armies are stuck at the bottom of the toilet and almost unplayable in many occassions. If Crudhead actually has the balls to pull rules like this out of his arse then I'll be pleased.

I haven't seen MEQ armies really being as bad as people say. That said, even accepting it as true, I'd rather not have the "MEQ comeback" be on the back of "rerolls for literally everything!".

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
A few examples with a few more in reserves; that's fine but doesn't nearly equate to "what happens every time a Codex is revised" as you had stated previously.

That's every time the Marine codex was revised. You'll have to excuse me if I don't recall every change to every codex since 2nd edition straight off the top of my head. Since the discussion was about Marines, I figured that pointing out the obvious changes to Marines specifically would make the point.

And sure it has happened to you a few times, but that doesn't mean it was a good move by GW. If anything I sympathise with you more for having to deal with it more.

My point wasn't that it's a good move, just that it should be expected since it's pretty much par for the course where GW are concerned, so really not worth getting worked up about. Either accept that it will happen, or find a less aggravating game to play instead. Unless of course you prefer to stick with a hobby that makes you angry. I don't know, some people might want that from their hobbies, and who am I to judge...?

 insaniak wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You can say this over and over until you are blue in the face, but it is still an incorrect statement. What happens every time a Codex is revised is some units get nerfed and people make a choice of their own free will to dump those units and take something else.

With the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, my Tarantulas and Mole Mortars all became unusable.
With the change from 3rd to 4th, Lasplas Razorbacks were suddenly not an option, and everyone running Chapter Approved Chapters found themselves with illegal lists.
With the change from 4th to 5th, my Marine army that included Apothecaries in every squad was suddenly illegal.

That's just the ones straight off the top of my head. I'm fairly sure there are more that I'm not remembering right now due to insufficient sleep and/or coffee...

This is not even close to the White Scars predicament, as there is no choice been given to players with an old army by GW.

Sure there is. Keep using the current codex, or put those extra squads aside for bigger games. Or, as someone else posted, look at running them as Command Squads instead.

Get the difference between nerfed and invalidated, get the difference between choice and no choice, then we can talk. If you can't see the difference between the two then we've nothing left to talk about. Then again it's easy to say such things when it's not your money left to gather dust on the shelf.

I've been playing this game since 1994. My Marine army has changed significant;y in every single edition so far. I expect it to change significantly in every edition to come.

With the change from 4th to 5th my 6 Devastator Squad army was gone. I really didn't need 6 squads anymore. I lost the ability to take 2x Special Weapons via Cleans and Purge so my Rhino Rush/Drop Pod bomb list using Tac squads with double special weapons and 4 librarians 2 HQ 2 Add ons to Command Squads in DP with 4 Fear of the Darkness powers was gone too. Completely gone. I no longer needed 4 Librarian models... You're right the list does go on and on and on.

I remember wondering what became of the thousands of excess Carnifexs after the Fexzilla book was updated.

Of course, when you pop a Land Raider, it usually disgorges high value targets in PA or TDA, which will be forced to advance on foot and be torn limb from limb by the Devastator Centurions next turn. If they do decide to advance, the meatshield 1W types will be murderered outright, and there's a good chance that any bosses in the group will be severely weakened, possibly to the point of having to fend off an assault with their initiative reduced to 1.

Yikes.

It's almost like Centurions with Grav Cannons were designed to open Land Raiders like tin cans and gib their helpless and frightened occupants.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You can say this over and over until you are blue in the face, but it is still an incorrect statement. What happens every time a Codex is revised is some units get nerfed and people make a choice of their own free will to dump those units and take something else.

With the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, my Tarantulas and Mole Mortars all became unusable.
With the change from 3rd to 4th, Lasplas Razorbacks were suddenly not an option, and everyone running Chapter Approved Chapters found themselves with illegal lists.
With the change from 4th to 5th, my Marine army that included Apothecaries in every squad was suddenly illegal.

That's just the ones straight off the top of my head. I'm fairly sure there are more that I'm not remembering right now due to insufficient sleep and/or coffee...

This is not even close to the White Scars predicament, as there is no choice been given to players with an old army by GW.

Sure there is. Keep using the current codex, or put those extra squads aside for bigger games. Or, as someone else posted, look at running them as Command Squads instead.

Get the difference between nerfed and invalidated, get the difference between choice and no choice, then we can talk. If you can't see the difference between the two then we've nothing left to talk about. Then again it's easy to say such things when it's not your money left to gather dust on the shelf.

I've been playing this game since 1994. My Marine army has changed significant;y in every single edition so far. I expect it to change significantly in every edition to come.

With the change from 4th to 5th my 6 Devastator Squad army was gone. I really didn't need 6 squads anymore. I lost the ability to take 2x Special Weapons via Cleans and Purge so my Rhino Rush/Drop Pod bomb list using Tac squads with double special weapons and 4 librarians 2 HQ 2 Add ons to Command Squads in DP with 4 Fear of the Darkness powers was gone too. Completely gone. I no longer needed 4 Librarian models... You're right the list does go on and on and on.

It is one of the harsh realities of GW. They are a business and part of that business includes releasing new lists and rules that force you to buy more of their stuff. I don't have to like it, but I accept it.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Wow if any of what I just read is true space marines just got serious. Any codex not written in 6th ed. Is not going to even be playable now...

To be fair, BA have been unplayable since 6th first came out anyway...

Yea... it's certainly been a challenge. Most of my list has moved over to shooting units for the time being.

I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

 Eldarain wrote:
I remember wondering what became of the thousands of excess Carnifexs after the Fexzilla book was updated.

My friend who played during the switch says Ebay was literally swarmed with them...

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

I know how you feel
Space Wolves since 1989
Dark Angels Since 2002?
The last time I went to a Game Store before I could even unpack my Spave Wolves I was getting "Bandwagon, WAAC and Cheese".

I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Poopoo it. The only thing that bothers me is that "I told you so" doesn't satisfy as much a month later.

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

If the sallies rumors turn out to be correct (chapter tactics+Vulkan=reroll all failed hits, wounds, armor pen with all flamers/meltas), I'm certainly fully expecting a repeat of the last codex, where very C:SM army I faced until the SW book came out was a Vulkan army. UM's with twin link/half-link everything look possible too. I resisted bandwagoning my CSM's during 5th, never could bring myself to do it, but damn it looks like there really won't be much of any reason not to if these rumors hold out

 Vaktathi wrote:

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

If the sallies rumors turn out to be correct (chapter tactics+Vulkan=reroll all failed hits, wounds, armor pen with all flamers/meltas), I'm certainly fully expecting a repeat of the last codex, where very C:SM army I faced until the SW book came out was a Vulkan army. UM's with twin link/half-link everything look possible too. I resisted bandwagoning my CSM's during 5th, never could bring myself to do it, but damn it looks like there really won't be much of any reason not to if these rumors hold out

Given how much hate UM gets, do people even play them anymore? I have seen a ton of Vanilla SM armies, but only 1 was UM, and that was from a player that just started playing. I also haven't seem many Vulcan lists, but I started early 2011 so I guess that bandwagon was over by then...

 warboss wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

You obviously don't understand the difference between making a choice of your own free will because your unit got nerfed (what happens every time a Codex is revised) and been forced to shelf hundreds of euros worth of your models with no choice at all (something that rarely happens with an update, but is happening here).

You have a choice... you simply don't want to go through with the effort. That IS your choice but don't claim that you're not making one. If you've only got a Khan mini for a captain, all it takes to make your army legal is to buy a single bike squadron and make 3 more captains from your left over bits so you can field over 100 bikes on two force orgs. That's a hell of alot cheaper than shelving your "hundred euros" of figures. No one is claiming that its a perfect or even optimal choice but you're treating it as if GW said you simply can't field more than 5 bikes in an army.

Damn. Really really hoping captain + 1 bike squad is incorrect. Surely 2 via the general FOC rules of 2 troops min would be more sensical? Not looking forward to rush building and painting tactical squads so I can play legal games..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Poopoo it. The only thing that bothers me is that "I told you so" doesn't satisfy as much a month later.

Fingers crossed!

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Given how much hate UM gets, do people even play them anymore? I have seen a ton of Vanilla SM armies, but only 1 was UM, and that was from a player that just started playing. I also haven't seem many Vulcan lists, but I started early 2011 so I guess that bandwagon was over by then...

Quite a lot of people play Ultramarines, yes. Despite all the bizarre complaints about them on the internet, out in the real world they're generally not as badly regarded.

Any info on how many W the fatties might get?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

If the sallies rumors turn out to be correct (chapter tactics+Vulkan=reroll all failed hits, wounds, armor pen with all flamers/meltas), I'm certainly fully expecting a repeat of the last codex, where very C:SM army I faced until the SW book came out was a Vulkan army. UM's with twin link/half-link everything look possible too. I resisted bandwagoning my CSM's during 5th, never could bring myself to do it, but damn it looks like there really won't be much of any reason not to if these rumors hold out

Given how much hate UM gets, do people even play them anymore? I have seen a ton of Vanilla SM armies, but only 1 was UM, and that was from a player that just started playing. I also haven't seem many Vulcan lists, but I started early 2011 so I guess that bandwagon was over by then...

Yes. I have my Void Eagles, which are vanilla Marines (Ultramarines) and they are rightly feared. I have (so, so many....) Black Templars, which I played for 7 years and won with...a handful of times (but had fun). I have my Void Angels, which are Blood Angels - and only have not discovered the alleged horror of them in 6th because I have been busy playing my Necrons for the first time, mostly.

Truth to tell, the Void Eagles (all beaky!) are among the hardiest and most fun of my armies.

Well I don't think anyone in my local group will accuse me of bandwagoning since I have stuck with my SilverSkulls (C:SM) even after Tau came out and I have sizeable Tau army boxed up. I haven't won a game with my SM in nearly two years LOL.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

I played with that damned 4th ed csm dex all 5th and never proxied a loyalist dex despite the fact everyone told me I might as well. I'd rather not start now.

I would of rather got a half decent dex in the 1st place.

also so far from what I read it sounds like all of the chapters got prety good rules. The ultramarien's choose one of three at the beginning kinda feels clearly the best of the lot, but none of them read as crappy to me.

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

I could care less about i win buttons. I just wanted rules to repersent my csm legions. I'm butt hurt loyalist got thows options and we didn't.

 warboss wrote:
You have a choice... you simply don't want to go through with the effort. That IS your choice but don't claim that you're not making one. If you've only got a Khan mini for a captain, all it takes to make your army legal is to buy a single bike squadron and make 3 more captains from your left over bits so you can field over 100 bikes on two force orgs. That's a hell of alot cheaper than shelving your "hundred euros" of figures. No one is claiming that its a perfect or even optimal choice but you're treating it as if GW said you simply can't field more than 5 bikes in an army.

What choice is that? What effort is that? I'm not treating it like GW is telling me I can't field more than 5 Bikes in an army, I'm saying that GW have come along and made it impossible for me to field my current legal list under the new book at all.

We don't play 2k+ around here, so tell me, how do I take the Captain, 50 Bikes, and 2 Storm Talons from my current army and put all of that into a legal army in the new book? If I get a second Captain I can have two 5 man squads of Bikes as Troops and then I have to fit the other 40 and 2 Talons into Fast somehow. That's not possible, plain and simple.

Like I've said several times, I'll get over it and get on with a new list, I would just appreciate if people stopped telling me I can use all my models with a little effort, because the simple fact is I can't.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Except Mutilators have invulnerable saves.. lol. Of course they both suffer from ugly as Please don't try and bypass the swear filter like this. Thanks. Reds8n model syndrome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwyidion wrote:
Tigurius makes me urpy. Looks like 5 points less than Eldar's generic farseer + Autarch without upgrades, but tougher, meaner in combat, much better psyker, better reserves manip.

Just - why?

GW loves them some Space Marines... Just kidding. I think it's crap too. /sigh

 Lockark wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

I played with that damned 4th ed csm dex all 5th and never proxied a loyalist dex despite the fact everyone told me I might as well. I'd rather not start now.

I would of rather got a half decent dex in the 1st place.

also so far from what I read it sounds like all of the chapters got prety good rules. The ultramarien's choose one of three at the beginning kinda feels clearly the best of the lot, but none of them read as crappy to me.

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

I could care less about i win buttons. I just wanted rules to repersent my csm legions. I'm butt hurt loyalist got thows options and we didn't.

Very much the same.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Just saw your post now. This is a very good point and could make the whole thing mostly a moot point after all as you could just Combat Squad to get more than two squads. I really hope you are right; I don't think losing the extra Attack Bikes is such a big deal, so fingers crossed; you give me hope mate

Out of curiosity since I mentioned it anyway, how does Combat Squads work for Bikes? Do you actually need 10 models or does the Attack Bike count as two? I am starting to get some ideas, but would depend on how this works, as admittedly I've never even considered doing it with the current list.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Poopoo it. The only thing that bothers me is that "I told you so" doesn't satisfy as much a month later.

40k Radio has been posting this stuff on their Facebook. They later mentioned (when asked) that the bike squads as troops are 3-5 man squads, and one of them can be upgraded to an Attack Bike.