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Pariahs and Flayed ones.... 2 units that get shrugged off as horrifically useless, but have an interesting synergy with each other.

On one hand, consider pariahs: It's just an Immortal with a warscythe right?

Wrong. While it's psychic interaction is a bit "meh", you've got the reduction in Ld aura... anything within x number of inches gets their Ld stat reduced to 7 if it wasn't already lower. An interesting item on it's own, if entirely useless at the initial glance... but it has an interesting synergy going for it. It can make flayed oned relatively good picks against Ork Boyz, Tac Squads, and other various generalist units.

Yes, that's right. I said it. Necrons that are good against Orks. Well, some of them, at least...

But what i am suggesting here is more a means to utilize 2 units that people refer to as crap, and here's how...

Pariahs, in whatever numbers seem reasonable for the points
Flayed ones, in a squad of 10
Necron lord, kitted with gaze of flame, lightning field, res orb, warscythe and nightmare shroud
Monolith

You've effectively got Ld. 6 opponents testing every round to see if they hit on 6's... that brings you into the wonderful world of survivability. A res orb takes it even further. Warscythe gives you the means to deal with any less savory things that might slip through the cracks. Pariahs soften up anything that might be a little too heavy for the flayed ones to deal with at full strength, as well as staying close enough to grab a countercharge that will ruin anyone's day. The lord's layout also provides that little extra oomph to get you over the hump at the end of CC, in the form of a Lightning field. The monolith stays close enough to effectively grant hit and run, with an added bonus of rerolling failed WBB rolls.

Is this an end-all, be-all, ungodly unstoppable combo? Not entirely, but it certainly gives you a big hit of potency that needs to be dealt with, while not looking too threatening.

Thoughts, comments, and counterpoints encouraged and appreciated.

Are you considering how you'de get this duo stuck in at full strength? I've only ever seen Flayed Ones infiltrated and will be shot fist in most cases. I can see this working against armies that come right at you, which is most armies since you're playing Necrons. If you have enough flayed ones you can even guarantee that phase out isn't possible until they are taken care of.

What would you back this up with?

Have you tried Pariahs and the Deceiver.... last time I checked the Deceiver does not care if you are LD 10 Fearless, you are Pinned if you fail that Morale check! The Pariahs help with bringing LD 10 down to LD 7...

Actually, the Deciever got Errata'd to basically focing No Retreat wounds instead of pinning Fearless units.

The issue with Pariahs is that they aren't Necrons so can't use Shroud, the Monolith or any other means of moving up the board. That makes them slow as dirt. They also don't have WBB, so they rely on T5 3+ to stay alive. Do you know what happens why I try and march my Plague Marines up the board? They don't make it into CC, for one thing. However, atleast my Plague Marines are only 23 points a pop, compared to that 35 point paper-weight.

I'd like cool combos like this to work, really I would. The fact of the matter is that they don't. Flayed Ones seem like a workable CC unit, especially if they're supported by a Lord or the Nightbringer, but that's because they have all the things that Pariahs lack: speed (Infiltrate and Deepstrike), durability (WBB is a wonderful thing), and numbers (they're blighting cheap).

As an aside, Gaze of Flame and Lightning Field are terrible powers. Infact, every upgrade except Warscythe, Destroyer Body, the 4++, Rez Orb and Shroud are worthless.

a buddy of mine runs the deceiver near a pack of pariahs w/ attached gaze lord (no orb, what's the point) and some flayed ones. He's working on controlling assaults at the moment by using scarabs to create a shield for the unit that forces the enemy to attack through the deciever... heh heh heh.

It's pretty cool. I think this is one of the better uses of synnergy in the dex. Follow up with 10 destroyers, 3 heavys and warriors and you have a decent army. You're still not beating IG, but you're doing allright.

Dronze wrote:you've got the reduction in Ld aura... anything within x number of inches gets their Ld stat reduced to 7 if it wasn't already lower. An interesting item on it's own, if entirely useless at the initial glance... but it has an interesting synergy going for it. It can make flayed oned relatively good picks against Ork Boyz, Tac Squads, and other various generalist units.

Yes, that's right. I said it. Necrons that are good against Orks. Well, some of them, at least...

You do realize that this combo doesn't work on Boyz mobs that are greater than 10, as they are fearless, and don't care about LD....

I have found the Pariah to be very useful in Necron lists. A small unit of 4 goes a long way in swinging the battle to the Necrons favor and costs a mere 144 points. Ive used them in several tournaments and I was always happy I chose them over a 5 man Immortal squad by the end of the tournament.

It may be the unit just works with my list, but I wouldnt discredit them entirely.

I will admit I am not a fan of Flayed though. The only real use I have is a small 5 or 6 man squad that flank marches to grab H. Weapon teams or contest objectives. Probably my least favorite choice in the codex next to the warriors.

DarkHound wrote: The issue with Pariahs is that they aren't Necrons so can't use Shroud, the Monolith or any other means of moving up the board. That makes them slow as dirt. They also don't have WBB, so they rely on T5 3+ to stay alive. Do you know what happens why I try and march my Plague Marines up the board? They don't make it into CC, for one thing. However, atleast my Plague Marines are only 23 points a pop, compared to that 35 point paper-weight.

There are a couple of problems with this statement. First off: Pariahs not being Necrons is an asset. Sure they don't get a WBB roll, but they also do not count toward PO. Shots directed at Pariahs are not directed at your more valuable Necron units. Second: Marching Plague Marines across the board is moot. Pariahs do not need to see combat at all to be effective. At worst throw them into combat to stop a unit from assaulting something far more vunerable (Warriors, Destroyers...etc) at best they are a ld reducing bubble of nastiness. Most people who play Necrons or against them seriously underestimate the effects of ld 7 when taking -25% casualty tests.

DarkHound wrote:I'd like cool combos like this to work, really I would. The fact of the matter is that they don't. Flayed Ones seem like a workable CC unit, especially if they're supported by a Lord or the Nightbringer, but that's because they have all the things that Pariahs lack: speed (Infiltrate and Deepstrike), durability (WBB is a wonderful thing), and numbers (they're blighting cheap).

As an aside, Gaze of Flame and Lightning Field are terrible powers. Infact, every upgrade except Warscythe, Destroyer Body, the 4++, Rez Orb and Shroud are worthless.

Unfortunately I can't really defend the FO. I am not saying they cannot be effective, only they are not my style. However, comparing them to Pariahs is a mistake. Deepstrike is a gimmick in a unit with no ranged weapons, and Infiltrate is arguably just as bad in an army that needs to stay in close support of its units. ( Especially its CC units.) Neither ability would be missed by me if they got redone. As to being durable and cheap, I would ask compared to what? Their durability is counteracted by the fact that they will not get to strike in CC if they make use of their WBB rolls. Their ability to reduce a foes ability to hit them is really only reliable when paired with a Lord with gaze (which is hardly useless) and near a unit of pariahs (as the OP was originally proposing).

Compare them to a unit of warriors, same points cost, same toughness, troops choice, and have a ranged attack. Not to mention they are expensive models themselves, unless you convert Warriors into FO.

I will agree with you on one point however, Lightning fields suck hard.

Sovereign Prime wrote:
Pariahs not being Necrons is an asset. Sure they don't get a WBB roll, but they also do not count toward PO. Shots directed at Pariahs are not directed at your more valuable Necron units.

Well, imo, it's a double edged sword. Sure, they don't count for you WBB, but if you're facing artillery, they're gonna go for your "Necrons" ASAP. The only problem I have with them not having WBB is their ridiculous points cost, you could get 2 Warriors. If they cost less, I would be able to overlook their downsides, but at 36 points a pop, it's too expensive. Especially if they, as you said, get gunned down in the beginning (attract all the fire)

Sovereign Prime wrote:There are a couple of problems with this statement. First off: Pariahs not being Necrons is an asset. Sure they don't get a WBB roll, but they also do not count toward PO. Shots directed at Pariahs are not directed at your more valuable Necron units.

Thats like saying not being scoring is an asset because they're expendable. Not being Necrons means you don't add to the PO, which is infinitely worse than not being part of it at all.

Second: Marching Plague Marines across the board is moot. Pariahs do not need to see combat at all to be effective. At worst throw them into combat to stop a unit from assaulting something far more vunerable (Warriors, Destroyers...etc) at best they are a ld reducing bubble of nastiness. Most people who play Necrons or against them seriously underestimate the effects of ld 7 when taking -25% casualty tests.

Oooh, scary 12" range. Too bad they're moving 6" per turn, while pretty much everyone else is atleast moving 12. They're shooting isn't powerful enough to justify their price, so they need to see combat in order to be worth it. However, they won't see combat with anything you need because they simply lack the mobility.

Sovereign Prime wrote:Unfortunately I can't really defend the FO. I am not saying they cannot be effective, only they are not my style. However, comparing them to Pariahs is a mistake. Deepstrike is a gimmick in a unit with no ranged weapons, and Infiltrate is arguably just as bad in an army that needs to stay in close support of its units. ( Especially its CC units.) Neither ability would be missed by me if they got redone. As to being durable and cheap, I would ask compared to what? Their durability is counteracted by the fact that they will not get to strike in CC if they make use of their WBB rolls. Their ability to reduce a foes ability to hit them is really only reliable when paired with a Lord with gaze (which is hardly useless) and near a unit of pariahs (as the OP was originally proposing).

Compare them to a unit of warriors, same points cost, same toughness, troops choice, and have a ranged attack. Not to mention they are expensive models themselves, unless you convert Warriors into FO.

Deepstrike is situationally useful, but Infiltrate becomes great when Monoliths are involved. Infiltrate lets you set up after your opponent has, and lets you get several turns worth of movement up the board. This means you can put them where your opponent has to deal with them. By using Monoliths as tethers you're able to pull them a good distance if you're opponent moves to counter them (either out of the way, or brings too much heat). Besides that, you have the ability to Outflank, which means you can chew through backfield squads later in the game.

I'll recant what I said: they aren't cheap, just priced properly. This is apparent when compared to Necron Warriors, or MEQs in general. Look at Chaos Space Marine Chosen; they're CSM who payed 3 points for Infiltrate, bringing them to the same price as Flayed Ones. The Chosen hit harder (Grenades, Bolters, Bolt Pistols), but the Flayed Ones are more durable (Necrons, Terrifying Visage). Don't under estimate Visage: its a Ld test, not a morale check so it affects even Fearless models. Gaunts test at Ld 5, and Carnifexi at only Ld7. Even Space Marine squads test on Ld8 (~40% chance to fail).

Pariahs are one of the few units in the game that can confidently engage Assault Terminators.

Think about it: Six Pariahs vs Five Assault Terminators with Thunderhammer and Storm Shields. Pariahs attack first as well, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, no saving throws. If the Pariahs get attacked first, then 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds. Four dead Terminators.

So we can expect one Terminator to attack back, with two attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, no saves. So that's 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.83 wounds.

The Necrons win by 3, meaning the Terminators are testing on Ld4 (Ld7, -3 for losing).

Of course, had the charge been in the other direction, then 6 attacks from the Pariahs, 3 hit, and 2 wounds with no saves allowed, leaving three Terminators with 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.74 wounds with no saves allowed, winning by 2 and forcing 2 No Retreat saves on the Pariahs. With a 0.66 expected value of another wound, rounding up, there's one Pariah left in combat with the three Terminators. Not great, but not bad either.

Yes, Piriahs are able to take on Assault Terminators with ease. Piriahs aren't bad at assault. However, the issue still is: how are they going to catch them?

You are assuming that unit isn't mixed, and doesn't have a character with them.

The combo is known, but it is very hard to arrange. The pariahs are a lot of points in a unit that isn't very tough (by Necron standards) and is possibly the slowest unit in the game. Other classic sloths like Meganobs and Oblits can get transports or teleportation. Pariahs footslog. Then the Pariahs have to survive, so a min # unit may not be sufficient. Then they AND the Flayed Ones need to assault at least one, and preferably multiple, things that can actually fight back.

This would be great if Pariahs and Flayed Ones were strong units you would be fielding anyway. But they aren't.

DarkHound wrote:Thats like saying not being scoring is an asset because they're expendable. Not being Necrons means you don't add to the PO, which is infinitely worse than not being part of it at all.

Wrong. You are making the assumption that having a high PO number is only a good thing. While some lists make use of high PO numbers, it is just as viable to keep a low PO number and protect a unit by keeping it in reserve, thereby making PO impossible to obtain until that unit comes in.

DarkHound wrote:Oooh, scary 12" range. Too bad they're moving 6" per turn, while pretty much everyone else is atleast moving 12. They're shooting isn't powerful enough to justify their price, so they need to see combat in order to be worth it. However, they won't see combat with anything you need because they simply lack the mobility.

Again, several things that perturb me. Only 12''? How about a 24''+ bubble from each side of the Pariah unit, give or take a few inches you can get from unit coherency. I'd like to know what else is all moving at least 12 inches a turn. Warriors? FO? Immortals? There are a few units that will most likely be plodding alongside the Pariahs. Add in the fact that almost every player barring Tau and Guard is going to be trying to CC you and your argument begins to fall apart.

Next is the fact that their shooting is equal to that of an Immortal, which is one of the better elite choices in the list. Discounting their shooting is just silly, you get a gun that can shoot while moving along with the effects I have already listed above for 8 points more. Combined shooting with other units, forcing low ld tests with the OPTION of being half decent in assault (which most necron units are not) is the bread and butter of the Pariahs. If you can win the CC by charging in, that is just a bonus, but they do NOT ever have to see combat to justify their points

DarkHound wrote:Deepstrike is situationally useful, but Infiltrate becomes great when Monoliths are involved. Infiltrate lets you set up after your opponent has, and lets you get several turns worth of movement up the board. This means you can put them where your opponent has to deal with them. By using Monoliths as tethers you're able to pull them a good distance if you're opponent moves to counter them (either out of the way, or brings too much heat). Besides that, you have the ability to Outflank, which means you can chew through backfield squads later in the game.

I will give you outflanking can be mildly useful, however I disagree with your other points.

Deepstrike is a horrid option, and situationally useful is optimistic at best. If they land directly where you want them, they are still waiting a turn to do anything. Outflanking is a better option every time imo. Infiltrating as a combo with the Monolith is just like relying on the Pariahs to assist the unit of FO. Expensive and just not that cost effective.

The FO can infiltrate out but are sitting out in the field, isolated and likely taking casualties while you wait for the Monolith to come in for reserves. Alternatively you could start with the mono on the board and get similar results all while benefiting from the Monoliths Portal WBB. As I stated earlier, Most opponents will be coming to you, so a Monolith slingshot would be just as effective, infiltrate or not.

DarkHound wrote: I'll recant what I said: they aren't cheap, just priced properly. This is apparent when compared to Necron Warriors, or MEQs in general. Look at Chaos Space Marine Chosen; they're CSM who payed 3 points for Infiltrate, bringing them to the same price as Flayed Ones. The Chosen hit harder (Grenades, Bolters, Bolt Pistols), but the Flayed Ones are more durable (Necrons, Terrifying Visage). Don't under estimate Visage: its a Ld test, not a morale check so it affects even Fearless models. Gaunts test at Ld 5, and Carnifexi at only Ld7. Even Space Marine squads test on Ld8 (~40% chance to fail).

I agree they aren't cheap. However those things you listed all have either ranged weapons or grenades, which the FO lack both of. Also WBB doesn't make them more durable in the assault per se, as they still are denied their attacks. Most units of MEQs include a Power weapon or fist at that, which is another thing FO do not have, further slanting the assault against them. They are hardly justified points wise for infiltrate and an ability that will fail on average leadership over half the time, compared to similarly priced units.

Although a little back on topic, FO working together with a Lord with Staff of Light, Gaze of Flame, RO, turns their assault viability towards the positive, and the RO can still save those units that fall to powerweapons in CC. If you base your list around the FO, possibly including Pariahs, I can see the list working. Not to mention surprise factor, few people probably expect to see FO in a list anyway

Nurg, I would hesitate to use that example, being it seems a bit favored to the Pariahs. I could be wrong, but aren't Pariahs and Terminators the same points cost? Not to mention if they have mixed weapon loadouts, Several Termies could strike first and ruin your day. 3 Lighting clouds/2 TH Termies perhaps?

Of course I'm assuming that the unit of Terminators isn't mixed. I haven't seen loyalist Lightening Claws in a long time. If you want to consider Characters, then we would have to input a Necron Lord into the Pariah unit and simply complicates a simple comparison with contingencies.

Pariahs are faster than Mega Nobz or Obliterators and have a longer ranged weapon than the former: the Gauss Blaster. The comparison to Obliterators isn't apt because those are Heavy Support. Pariahs carry anti-infantry firepower and assault power in the same package, and pay a premium for it.

Personally I haven't found their lack of We'll Be Back to be a huge problem, as it's easy enough to deny Necrons their We'll Be Back, and as mentioned they don't directly contribute to Phase Out (though they do indirectly). T5 and Cv4+/Sv3+ is pretty good, particularly combined with a Solar Pulse.

I think the problem that most players face with them isn't that they aren't a strong unit, but that they're not an easy unit. They're not a great unit either, but consider the increasing number of psykers in the game, and what else the Necrons can put down, and they have their utility.

Take the combination with the Deceiver's Deceive, or the combination with a Lord's Nightmare Shroud for clearing large mobs of Imperial Guard, or the unholy murder they can unleash on a Seer Council if accompanied by a Lord with the Lightening Field.

Heck, consider the following:

Ork Mob of 29 Boyz with Sluggas and Choppas, and a Nob with a Powerklaw are attacked by a Necron Lord with Lightening Field, Chronometron, accompanied by six Pariahs (Pariahs are about equal to the Boyz, the so the combat should be in favour of the Necrons):

First the Necrons shoot: they need every advantage they can get! 15 Gauss Blaster and Staff of Light shots, 10 hit, 6.70 wounds, no saves. Round up to 7 wounds. The Necrons then charge.

The Lord attacks first with 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.34 wound, no saves. The Pariahs then have 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, no saves. For a total of 5 wounds, on average.

Then 17 Orks Boyz attack back with 3 attacks each or 51 attacks, 25.5 hit, 8.42 wound, 2.78 aren't saved. Rounding up that's 3 wounds. Then the Nob attacks with 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, unsaved. Rounding down that's 1 wound. So a total of 4 inflicted on the Necrons.

So 9 more S3 AP- hits on the Boyz, for 3 wounds, or 2.50 more unsaved wounds. Rounding up that's 3 unsaved wounds.

So the Necrons would win 8:4, inflicting 4 more unsaved wounds on the Orks. That leaves a Lord and two Pariahs attacking 10 Orks.

In the next round the Necron Lord has 3 attack, 1.5 hits and does 1 unsaved wound. The Pariahs have 2 attacks, 1 hit, and 0.67 unsaved wounds. In total the Necrons cause 2 wounds (rounded up).

9 Orks attack for 27 attacks, 13.5 hits, 4.46 wounds, 1.47 unsaved wounds, or 1 wound rounded down. For the sake of argument the Nob causes a wound on the Necron Lord.

The Lightening Field then produces 0.66 unsaved wounds on the Orks, for 1 rounded up.

The Necrons win 3:2, meaning that the eight Orks left take their Morale check on Ld6, and then get mopped up by the Necrons with their Chronometron and I3 vs I2.

But the Pariahs could have been wiped out, the Orks could have tested on Ld7, and faced a Sweeping Advance of I4 vs I2. So on and so forth.

Sovereign Prime wrote:Wrong. You are making the assumption that having a high PO number is only a good thing. While some lists make use of high PO numbers, it is just as viable to keep a low PO number and protect a unit by keeping it in reserve, thereby making PO impossible to obtain until that unit comes in.

Do you know why people don't mind Monolith spam? Its because all those points you spend are effectively dead points: they don't have to deal with the Monoliths because of PO, so while the Monoliths can still impact the game they weaken you. The less points you spend on Necron units, the less units you have to lose, regardless of the actual point cap. If you run only the minimum squads of Warriors in reserve, when they show up the game shifts from you playing with a 360 point handicap to you only having 360 points of Necrons to lose. If in a 1500 point game, you can only lose ~450 points before you lose, you're fighting with both hands behind your back. Your opponent only has to do a third the damage to you as you need to do to him. Playing with more Necrons means you have more you can lose, so your opponent has more he has to kill. The logic behind the low PO armies isn't sound, and the only Necron armies I've seen do well have heavy ammounts of Necron units.

Sovereign Prime wrote:Again, several things that perturb me. Only 12''? How about a 24''+ bubble from each side of the Pariah unit, give or take a few inches you can get from unit coherency. I'd like to know what else is all moving at least 12 inches a turn. Warriors? FO? Immortals? There are a few units that will most likely be plodding alongside the Pariahs. Add in the fact that almost every player barring Tau and Guard is going to be trying to CC you and your argument begins to fall apart.

Next is the fact that their shooting is equal to that of an Immortal, which is one of the better elite choices in the list. Discounting their shooting is just silly, you get a gun that can shoot while moving along with the effects I have already listed above for 8 points more. Combined shooting with other units, forcing low ld tests with the OPTION of being half decent in assault (which most necron units are not) is the bread and butter of the Pariahs. If you can win the CC by charging in, that is just a bonus, but they do NOT ever have to see combat to justify their points

The aura is only 12", and by "everyone else" I meant your opponents (because everyone else has, you know, transports). Now, you have to assume your opponent isn't an idiot. Pariahs are fair at close combat, and their only downside is that they'll never get there. A smart opponent would understand that, and either kill them before he gets there or ignore the fight all together. So, if an assault army can't kill them off at range you're free to shield the bulk of your force with the Piriahs, right? The answer is a resounding 'eh'. All your are doing is giving your opponent more inscentive to attack that block and call your bluff. And with a real assault army bearing down on you, that is all it is. Piriahs aren't bad a close combat, but they aren't good enough either.

The problem with the Piriahs compared to the Immortals is the same with the Flayed Ones: essentially, its because they aren't Necrons. Because they aren't Necrons they can't take advantage of any of the army's mobility (Monoliths, Shroud). Because they aren't Necrons, they are dramatically less durable. Plus the Piriahs pay extra points because they aren't sure what they're doing: they have guns, yet lack the durability to stand and shoot; they have CC stats and equipment, yet lack the mobility to get into CC.

Sovereign Prime wrote:Infiltrating as a combo with the Monolith is just like relying on the Pariahs to assist the unit of FO. Expensive and just not that cost effective.

The FO can infiltrate out but are sitting out in the field, isolated and likely taking casualties while you wait for the Monolith to come in for reserves. Alternatively you could start with the mono on the board and get similar results all while benefiting from the Monoliths Portal WBB. As I stated earlier, Most opponents will be coming to you, so a Monolith slingshot would be just as effective, infiltrate or not.

Like I said before, you have to assume your opponent isn't a fool; I am your opponent right now. Did I say the Monolith would Deepstrike? No. You play it smart, and run the Monolith like usual. If the FO look like they're getting over-whelmed or that they're prey is going to get away, you pull them away with the Monolith.

As for Infiltrating, it seems you have a misconception about it. Infiltrating is not best used to put the unit as close to enemy, yet as far away from your army, as possible. It is not used to get into CC turn 1 (unless you're Shrike, but I digress). The most important thing about Infiltrate, especially for a CC unit, is that it lets you set them up after your opponent sets up. This lets you see exactly what your opponent plans to do, and where he's weakest to assault, then lets you put the FO where they need to be. This doesn't always mean to put them at the 18" line; sometimes it just means they'll form up just beyond the Deployment Zone so that they DO have the support of the army's [Monoliths, Orb, Shroud, etc.] because it would be unwise to engage without it.

Sovereign Prime wrote:I agree they aren't cheap. However those things you listed all have either ranged weapons or grenades, which the FO lack both of. Also WBB doesn't make them more durable in the assault per se, as they still are denied their attacks. Most units of MEQs include a Power weapon or fist at that, which is another thing FO do not have, further slanting the assault against them. They are hardly justified points wise for infiltrate and an ability that will fail on average leadership over half the time, compared to similarly priced units.

Why doesn't WBB make them more durable in Assault? I can't find anything that says they can't swing if they make WBB the following turn. At I4 they're likely to get their swings in before they go down, which makes WBB much more effective.

The FO are bully units: they have the mobility, and enough durability, to engage units that aren't good enough at CC. Those units (who tend to be shooty) lack a PF or Power Weapon.

Just Unit to unit, Termies vs Pariahs are still an iffy match-up. LC/TH are pretty common setups.

Also, I believe the Lightning Field has been FAQed to only be inflicted on unsaved wounds, hence the sucking hard comment.

Pariah speed is really not an issue. Who cares if you catch Termies or not? Move, shoot and assault them when they come to you, they are assault Termies after all

I think the majority of players trying to use Pariahs as CC machines (punny?) are misguided. That is not their true strength. Just because they get a Warscythe doesn't mean they have to CC. They can be used as a deterrent to CC for sure.

I have a batrep posted on another forum that illustrates the effectiveness of Pariahs paired with shooty lists, perhaps I will link it after I learn the forum policy on linking to other sites.

**edit**

Just caught your post Darkhound, So I am going to attempt to answer the best I can without requoting

I have a 2k list that uses no Monoliths, PO number is 10.

Then I run a 1850 with dual liths, PO number is still 10.

Dual Monoliths is strong not because I am dropping Ordinance blasts, its strong because the Mobility of the portal not only lets you keep your Warriors out of assault, where they will be sweeped and you will PO, but also in the ability to reroll WBB rolls.

In order to phase out my Monolist (there I go again) You would need to wipe out all of my destroyers, Heavy destroyers, and 2 full squads of warriors. I don't know the quality of Necron players you usually face, but achieving PO is not an easy feat against a knowledgeable player. (Maybe when you start fielding Ctan, which don't directly support the army...)

Next, The aura is 12'' from either side of the unit. hence a 'bubble' that your opponents either remove, or drive around in their transports. Assuming the Necron player isn't an idiot, he will target those transports first.

Now I am not saying Pariahs are a great solo unit. I have been adamantly defending their synergy when used with other units since the beginning of this discussion. My argument has been they will enhance other aspects of your army. Remember a Game has 5-7 turns. A turn locked in Combat with Pariahs gets you no closer to PO, and lets the army have more time to react to the assault threat. Likewise, a turn of shooting...etc

as to mobility, What about in armies that go Monolith-less? Then they are just as fast the majority of your basic troopers.

Pariahs are not made for CC imo. That is just a bonus. I stand by their ability to add mobile firepower and provide CC support when they HAVE to, in order to protect more valuable units. (IE Necrons, which I'm sure we can both agree on)

I have no misconception on infiltrate, I understand what you propose, but I was merely pointing out it is hardly more effective than just porting from the Monolith from turn one. I see your point and I won't argue further against it, seems sound enough for me.

Next point was an assumption on my part. I was assuming they were struck down in CC before making their attacks, hence not getting to strike. FO would be better with grenades as they are our elites option...especially when assaulting non-fighty units in cover. I will relinquish this one as well. They are more durable than Warriors, but still need a lot of work to be on par with assault units of other lists.




**edit dos**
I didn't see anything saying I can't link away, if I am wrong please remove it, my apologies.

http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=197183.0

Short Batrep, enjoy.

My point was that these are some of the slowest units in the game. And they are still faster than Pariahs due to superior movement options.

The pariahs have their uses, and the combo with the Deceiver is fairly strong. But the unit themselves are still not very good and overpriced. A HQ and an Elite choice vs. a Troops, and they get nearly wiped out in the victory. Admittedly, replacing the Lord with 4 more Pariahs results in something pretty close.

You are also leaving out what has always been the Pariahs' greatest weakness, at least to me. Heavy fire. Against an opponent that decides that they are a threat, Pariahs are much less survivable than their close competitor: the Immortal. If your opponent isn't specifically shooting for phase out, Pariahs are excellent targets unless you can also deny the Immortals replacement troop both WBB and the Orb. Put the Pariahs and Lord deployment range from the Orks, equip the Orks with rockets or big shootas, assume an objective compels them to stand their ground or advance, and I believe Immortals will do better.

None of the Necron units are very good at close combat. Nothing in the book except a C'tan will stand up to Bloodcrushers or Thunderwolves. Hell, most of them struggle against Grey Hunters. I venture that you are highly unlikely to be missing anything by replacing Pariahs with Immortals or Destroyers unless you have the Deciever or are simply desperate to have some melee potential after avoiding it in FA or HS.

The Idea of the Deciever is to increase the distance between your army and your opponents from 24 inches to about 50 inches...

... no, the idea of the Deceiver is to pin stuff and slip in and out of melee combat at whim.

Nurglitch wrote:
Ork Mob of 29 Boyz with Sluggas and Choppas, and a Nob with a Powerklaw are attacked by a Necron Lord with Lightening Field, Chronometron, accompanied by six Pariahs (Pariahs are about equal to the Boyz, the so the combat should be in favour of the Necrons):

Perhaps I am tabulating wrong, but is this not 209 points of Orks (29*6+10+25) vs 351 points of Necrons (36*6 + 100 + 35)? A better comparison is the Ork mob against just 6 Pariahs, in which the Necrons tie/lose the first round on a 50/50 basis and lose handily the second. The Lord, in addition to 135 points not contested, is employing a piece of Wargear against it's second best possible target and contributing far out of proportion to any other possible combat scenario that doesn't involve the word 'gaunts'.

Pariahs are the best TH/SS Termie killers, and if they don't kill them all, they will almost undoubtably make them run, also great for killing OP commanders. Flayed Ones not so sure, like the idea but have no idea how they would work.

Sovereign, I read the report but I don't think it is a good example. He put well over half his allotted points in reserve, only to deploy them in a way that makes them useless for another turn. The game was 2k points on Necrons beating on 1k of Marines. It was a good read none the less, but it fails to prove your point.

However, its intrigued me. I'll have to play some Vassal games with the Piriahs against the locals.

... no, the idea of the Deceiver is to pin stuff and slip in and out of melee combat at whim.

He can no longer Pin things that are fearless, only inflict "No Retreat!" ... He can pick his fights, wipe things that cannot fight him, and bully your opponent's entire army... I think you underestimate the power of making half of your opponent's army useless, thus turning the game into a 2k Necrons vs 1k other army. The only counter to this is if you bunch up your long range guys in the center of your deployment... but now I am dictating where you are placing your models for something that may or may not happen....

Perhaps I am tabulating wrong, but is this not 209 points of Orks (29*6+10+25) vs 351 points of Necrons (36*6 + 100 + 35)? A better comparison is the Ork mob against just 6 Pariahs, in which the Necrons tie/lose the first round on a 50/50 basis and lose handily the second. The Lord, in addition to 135 points not contested, is employing a piece of Wargear against it's second best possible target and contributing far out of proportion to any other possible combat scenario that doesn't involve the word 'gaunts'.

30 boyz and a powerklaw cost 6 more points... Nobz are upgrades...

215 points of Orks then.

Depending on the Grand Illusion to redeploy more than one or two units is dangerous. You can just as easily fail a roll, end up leaving a unit or two hanging on a weak flank that is now even weaker, and end up creating for your opponent what you were trying to make for yourself: a local concentration of forces.

I allways run my Assualt terminaors mixed, 1 pair of lightning claws can amke all the difference. Especially when i allways stick them in a land raider and chaplin, rerolling Hits and Wounds, thats on average 4 pw Wounds. can make all the difference trust me. (i learnt this the hard way, 8 of my terminators (shooty) vs 4 Assualt termis with 2 lighting claws... killed 3 before i got a swing and i failed to kill any, then the thunder hammers....