Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Guys, just looking for an opinion. Putting together a Captain and Command Squad for my Vanilla Marines to replace the Chaplain w/Jump Pack and Assault Squad Retinue that I have been fielding since 3rd Ed.

-Put them all on bikes, supported by a large unit of biker marines.
-Put them on foot, riding in a Rhino or Razorback. Use the bikers as Fast Attack Squads.

Just looking to expand my options. I mostly use a Rhino Rush, can field 5 full tactical squads in Rhinos, with support from a Dread and Pred. Not a whole lot of Heavy Options, but was looking to use the new bikes/Attack Bikes/Land Speeders with Melta goodness to be able to deal with heavy armor threats, and keep the Marines mobile. Aiming to field a solid competitive 1500 point list.

I'm a big Fan of Razorbacks with TL-lascannons. I'd say go for that.

I actually run my bike captain with a normal bike squad. I combat squad it into an anti tank unit and the sergeant (with a fist) and some bolter bikes and they act as counter charge/seek and destroy unit.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Also the problem with bike command squads seems to be the amount of points you end up investing into them. They are quite pricey for 5 models.

The only reason to take a Captain is to take him on a bike so that you have scoring bikers. Command squad in a rhino/razorback is a big no no

tedurur wrote:The only reason to take a Captain is to take him on a bike so that you have scoring bikers. Command squad in a rhino/razorback is a big no no

I personally disagree to having a bike captain. Without a bike, he is a strong character, and a Captain and his Command Squad just happen to fit perfectly in a Razorback with a weapon of your choice.

@JSK-Fox:

None-bike Captains don't add very much.
Libby adds offensive power at range and in combat and psychic defense.
Chappy force multiplies the squad he's with.

Captain adds... one more deposit wound...combat muscle you pay through the nose for...and what else? Access to the Command Squad...whoop-di-do.

Scoring Bikers is a whole different issue.

With or without the bike, it's an average fighter.
Biker Command Squads are decent when one doesn't bling them out. They bring multiple special weapons in a small squad. Blinged out, it's the small squad sizet that kills it regardless of defensive values.

As for Captain + Command Squad it ends up being a counter assault unit if you really need it. Characterful and .... cute, but I don't see them often, and I think there's a good reason for it.
It's slow without the rhino, it does not deliver special weapons faster, it's not a function that you need from them when you have other choices for it.

As a long time Space Marine player, I fully disagree with Sanctjud.

Space Marine Captains and Command Squads have their place.

Yes, I agree that most competitive Space Marine Builds center around a character and a Librarain, most if not all of my builds are that way.

However, if you are willing to forgo that one special character, a Command Squad and a Librarian is a pretty strong option. They provide another assault element to your list and have plenty of means to deliver them. You can put a few storm shields in there to bounce power weapons and powerfists, and you are giving FNP to the whole squad and the characters. Hell, I have even had success with Vulkan and a Captain in a command Squad, that is a lot of Assault Power to throw around, and having a Captain with a Master Crafted thunderhammer works wonders.

I usually have 2 rules for the command squad:

1. Never pay more then 200 points for the command squad, any higher then that and you are generally better off with a Terminator Assault Squad. This is before bikes of course.
2. Always plan how you will deliver them, a Land Raider Crusader filled with a Captain, another Character, and a Command Squad is never a waste.

Vulkan/captain w/ hammer in a command squad. It's not cost effective.
TH/SS are the way to go there.
Similarly, I have success with possessed...and they are in the same boat, not cost effective when you look at the other options in the dex.

Captain w/ Hammer is 130 points...that's 3 TH/SS termies.
They can't be instant killed, 3++ built in.
Captain has 3 attacks/1 for charge, the TH/SS have 6 base, 3 for charge. The double number of attacks makes up for the differing WSs and then some.

2+ armor is more reliable than 3+/FNP.

The only thing the Command Squad has going for it is the Special Weapon Access/Banner Access/and ability to sweep.
Now, if you over-weight those options, then yea, the command squad starts looking good.

But there are other options who are more durable, more combatty, and more economical for what you get.
The command squads needs to be lower than 200, which is really hard to get that much useful stuff on them at that point.

Biker or not, I'm not a fan of command squads due to the stuck squad size.

Ahem:
"As a long time Warhammer 40K player, I fully agree to disagree"

What about the 4x Plasmagun squad with the Captain as a counter-assault element?

Roll around in your Razorback, hop out and pump 8 S7 shots into something important. Hell the Captain could even have a Combi weapon or Hellfire rounds to add to the fun.

If you get assaulted, you still have a base 2 attacks and the Captain isn't a slouch.

EDIT: You also have access to the CC, but I'm still torn on if he's worth anything. If nothing else its a cool model.

The plasma squad is cool, but delivery is not ideal unless on bikes or in a pod.
Rhino/razor makes them into a sort of counter-shooters as their combat prowess is so so if you are looking to keep points low.

If you are running a list low on available 'spots' for special weapons, the command squad can get you a bunch in a small package...which has its place.

Combat is secondary, and hence not of my concern, if it was primary and bikeless, that's where I think the squad fails.

I am running a captian in TDA with LCs with an assault term group in a LRR.

The Command Squad is 4 Plas in a Razorback. This unit hunts stuff that need killin good vs rapid fire.

Yeah, the captaion is not 'cost effective' or whatever, but the model is cool...

The best way I see Command Squads working is a compact special weapon delivery unit, which is something the SM codex otherwise lacks. It can even serve a minor role as counter-charge, if you pick up the Company Champion, while retaining special weapons saturation. If you want a CC ball-buster, go TH/SS or Assault Marines with a Chappy.

OP: Are you dead set against using a Drop Pod?

4 of any special weapon at the right place at the right time can win a game!

Not opposed to anything really. Just trying to weigh all my options. I have already purchased the Captain and Command Squad, and have bikes available for all the conversions. I just want to know the best way to make use of them before I get them all together. I could just put the Captain on a bike, to open up the Bikes as Troops, and hold off on building the Command Squad until I have a Razorback or Drop Pod to put them in. I think that it is mostly a flexibility issue.

Bikes could be great, particularly with flamers. For anti-horde the templates combined with those twin-linked bolters can lay down an awful lot of wounds. And not to mention they're T5 with 3+/FNP... It's pretty good.

Obviously you'll need to play with them a bit to get a feel for them though.

They cant fire the flamer and the bolters at the same time.

How about just pin the wastes and arms and get 2 sets of legs and arms and just switch them from bike to foot when you wanted...and vice versa?

Command Squad should be shooty.
Combatty Units can be found else where, as stated Special Weapons are the workhorse of the army and you can gets lots from the Command Squad.

Been considering the following set-up as a sort of mobile fire base:
Lysander with a decent sized command squad, banner, and storm bolters. At 24" this squad can lay down 2 reroll-able bolter shots a piece, move, and potentially assault in the same turn with +1A and FNP to finish off whatever they've been shooting. Lysander adds real punch to the unit in CC as well as the nasty reroll, and a terminator with FNP is sick.
The inspiration for this unit comes from those midrange firefights with Tau Fire Warriors. I feel like a unit set up like this could slaughter them.

I've been playing a command squad with 4 plasma, and four power weapons, in a pod. They don't come in first turn, they are part of the second wave. On the first turn every unit has the option of shooting at them. But by the third turn, the enemy is going to have to make some tough choices about a small plasma squad or all the other stuff going on.

I put the captain somewhere else, not with the suicide squad, and now with the new BA codex I can take them with any HQ!!

I know this is a super-expensive unit etc etc, but this is how I use them. Drop Pod, disembark into cover, shoot at MC, terminators, whatever. Now they are in cover, with feel no pain, and have to be dealt with because of the destructive power.

So I hope that gives you some ideas/perspective. They are super fun to use

Meh 5 meltas costs a few bob but will have an entire army firing at it =)

@mad rabbit--I tried a Sternguard squad for a while like that, ten guys, storm bolters, being gated around by a librarian, but 300 points for the ten sternguard was expensive and they lost the ammo, I ended up just using termies.

You'll only have 4 stormbolters in that squad so it seems like a waste of Lysander's rules.

@rdlb:
Lysanders' bolter drill works for the special ammo, why would you take stormbolters then?

Personally Gating Libby w/ sterguard is gimmicky, my triple plamsa cannoning solves that little issue.

Because Stormbolters have twice the range of bolters when you deepstrike.

And yes plasma cannons kill deepstriking marines.

I still don't get why you'd use something other than bolters with Sternguard...

It's spending more points for a less special unit. To be honest, it's been my experience that the GOI is best used last-ditch efforts to grab or contest objectives, if used at all.

The only time I wouldn't have bolters in the squad is to stick in a couple of special or heavy weapons. Well heavy at a push. Because having 8 combi-weapons, and 2 weapons of whatever the combi- is (ie. flamer, meltagun, plasma gun) is very useful in my eyes. =D

Oshova

I said I tried them and they were too expensive and not very good. I just tried them.