Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I started playing warhammer about three months ago, and I'm terrible. I have no idea how to win. I lose pretty much every time, and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Here are my units:

2 Tactical Squads (both with flamers and heavy bolters)
Space Marine Captain
2 Dreadnoughts (With meltas and powerfists)
1 Vindicator
1 Devastator Squad (All missile launchers + 4 marines)
2 Terminator squads
1 Predator (not built yet).

I usually face Tau and Chaos Space Marines (CSM are the only army I've ever beat), but occasionally orks as well. Here's what happens with all of these armies.

1. Orks. Oh god, these guys are the worst. Even with a vindicator, flamers, and orbital bombardment I can't seem to put a dent in them. They charge me turn 2, and just rape me. There are just so god damn many of them, in kill-point games it's impossible for me to win (because they are all in 30-man squads).

2. Tau. Tau usually blow up all my stuff first turn, and then their stealth suits destroy my space marines. I have no idea what to do against them. I can't shoot them, because they're longer range and they hide behind stuff. I can't charge them, because they're jump infantry. So slowly, he kills all my stuff and my vindicator + dreadnoughts.

3. Chaos Space Marines. These guys I can actually beat, I've won a game against them and have tied as well.

I am seriously considering quitting, because I am pissed off.

Well against my friends orks I can get frustrated too, what I have found works is spliting your tac squads into combat squads one with hvy weapon and one with sarge assault weapon. Then park your heavy weapon and devastators in cover because orks that assault in cover strike at initiative one even with furious charge. Now deploy your assault/sarge squads behind your heavy weapon squads. Next even when it is obvious they are in range "MEASURE ANYWAY" this will tell you how much time you have left. When the orks are 24"-18" away have your assault squad burst out of cover. The orks will move towards them. And "MAKE SURE YOU GET THE CHARGE" because you know how bad orks are when they go more than one turn its the same if they dont get the charge. Now you probably lost some men. That is good now choose to fail your check "Combat Tactics" so your guys are safe dont worry "And They Shall Know No Fear" means they will regroup. Now the orks are all bundled up for your vindicator shell. Edit: I you can kill the powerfist nob then a dread will hold the orks in place indefinatly but the nob is probably the last thing he will allocate wounds to so just food for thought

Sadly I have no experiance playing with or against Tau.

I do play chaos but there are several lists available to chaos so are you able to tell us what he has.

1 and 10 after only 3 months isn't unusual if you're playing against good opponents. I lost the majority of my games for about the first year of playing--but I'm a slow learner.

The major way that you can improve your army is to add rhinos for the tac squad and devastators, and finish building your predator. Space marines standing in the open are too vulnerable, and the more armored hulls you have, the better.

But your army isn't especially weak--it's not your army. It's a matter of learning how to use it.

-Space marines can't beat orks in assault. You have to kill or weaken them with shooting before they reach you, and possibly feed them one or more sacrificial units to slow them down. You have to figure out how to get the charge on them when possible, instead of letting them charge you.

-Space marines can't outshoot Tau. But if you have transports, you can roll up on them full speed and assault them. If you can manage to get them in HtH, they crumble.

Your more-experienced opponents are a much better source of information than a tactics forum. After you lose a game, always ask your opponent what you should have done differently.

you are new and it takes time to get the hang of the game. it took me a whole year and about 50 games before i won my first one.


you actually have a good list for killing orks. the dreadnoughts should have assault cannons against orks, and swapping the storm bolters on the DCCWs is a must against them aswell.

30 strong boy mobs are just begging for the vindicators blast template. unless they are mostly in cover(very hard to do with 30 orks) the vindicator should pulp what it hits. it is highly unlikely that the template will completly miss a target that large.

the terminators, are they normal tactical terminators(power fists and storm bolters) or assault terminators?

Tactical terminators are not close combat units. they are a mobile fire base and heavy weapons platform. clyclone missile launchers are good for them, 2 missiles, either krak or frag plus the hail of storm bolter shots will decimate a large squad of boys easily.


A little mathhammer can help here.

10 tactical terminators with clyclone missile vs 30 boys with shootas.

orks are 36 inches away on open ground.

terminators fire with missile launcher. 2 blast templates will hit on average 2 to 3 orks each(assuming orks are not spaced optimally and asuming you aimed for the center of the mob to reduce risk of complete scatter)

5 orks hit are hit, 4+ to wound=2.5 wounds=2.5 dead orks.

27.5 orks move 6" forward and run 3"= 27 inches away.

terminators fire missile launcher, another 2.5 dead orks.

25 orks move 6" forward and fire shootas = 21 inches away, 50 shots, 5+ to hit=16.5 hits. 4+ to wound= 8.25 wounds against 2+armor=1.23 dead termies.

9 terminators move back 2" and fire all guns, missile launcher leaves 2.5 dead orks. storm bolters. 18 shots from 9 bolters, 3+ to hit= 10.8 hits, 4+ to wound= 5.4 dead orks. 5.4+2.5= 7.9 dead orks

19.6 orks move 6" and WAAAAGH 6"= 11" away.

terminators move back 6" = 17 inches away and fire guns, missile launcher does 2.5 dead orks. 18 bolter shots = 5.4 dead orks

11.7 orks move 6" =11" away and fire shootas. 23.4 shots, 5+ to hit=7.02 hits. 4+ to wound = 3.51 wounds = .5 dead terminators

8.5 terminators move 6" back and fire. 17 bolters and missile launcher fire 2.5 missile launcher wounds. bolters 10.2 hits. 5.1 wounds. 7.6 dead orks.

4.1 orks take a moral check with a 50/50 chance of failure and at this point are not really a threat any more.


the key to tactical terminators and against orks in general is keep moving back to get as much shooting in a possable before the orks close. all space marine weapons will ignore the orks armor at range, allowing you to reduce their numbers to a managable size before close combat.

use the same idea applied to the rest of your units. devestators should be utilizing the maximum range of their weapons and remember to combat squad those tac marines to get the most out of their weapons load out.


what tactics have you been using against these armies? without knowing what you have been doing in addition to the enemy we can't analyze what's wrong or give more then general tips.

Codex chapters need to be mech for becoming competitive.

You have no enough vehicle, and walk on foot. That can not work.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

Orks. Oh god, these guys are the worst. Even with a vindicator, flamers, and orbital bombardment I can't seem to put a dent in them. They charge me turn 2, and just rape me.

Haha this just made me laugh out loud.

Dont worry about losing, you are only 3 months into the hobby.

Try getting a a few rhinos to put your guys inside. This stops them getting shot by most weapons and allows you to move/redeploy/run away a lot faster.

Orks - use a proxy model as a whirlwind to thin out the numbers. Use some proxy marines as assault marines with cc weapons and jumppack. Assault marines are not a great unit, but they are pretty good vs ork boys. It ensures you get the charge, denying their charge (v. important), and you should win the combat resolution (use a full squad, not 5 guys), forcing even more no retreat wounds and/or sweeping advance them. I would leave the dreadnoughts at home vs footslogging orks simply because you may get a flamer off and kill a few with your DCCW but then the powerclaw will eat your dreadnought.

Tau - It sounds like you are getting alpha striked by their railguns. Try setting up out of LOS for first turn, or at least in cover. Play around with reserving some things off the table so you dont get it blitzed on turn 1. Use some multimelta attack bikes to be able to reach things which keep jumping back and/or quickly reach his tanks hiding near his board edge. Get into rhinos and just zoom forward towards him. The aim vs Tau is just to run up to him and get into combat and sweeping advance them off the table.

CSM - sounds like you are holding your own, but again multimelta attack bikes are useful for everything like killing armour and putting wounds on nasty units.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:They charge me turn 2, and just rape me.

Melee armies shouldn't be able to reach CC until turn 3. How large is the board you're playing on, and how much terrain do you have? The very board has a huge impact on how armies perform; too small a board gives Orks and other CC armies (CSM) a huge advantage; a lack of cover means the Tau can shoot to their heart's content.

Like others have said, get Rhinos. You'll want the mobility and the protection they offer. Otherwise your army is really solid. It takes a while to learn the subtleties of the game, especially if you're playing against people who are good. The feints and ploys they use could go totally over your head, which gets them an unsatisfying win and you don't learn anything. Give it time, and try having them explain what they're doing. Talk through the moves you're making and see if they like your logic. If you're not thinking about your moves, you will lose to a player who is. This is, however, dependant on them being helpful and skillful players, so use discretion.

Flavius Infernus wrote:-Space marines can't beat orks in assault.

This really deserves some qualification.

On average, a 10 man Tactical Squad with Bolter (and no close combat weapon upgrade) on the sergeant will draw or win combat if it charges a 30-strong Shoota Boy squad with Power Klaw-armed Nob.* That's assuming all of the Orks get into combat range (which may or may not be likely, and the more likely it is, the more damage your Flamers do first), and even ignoring firing special weapon and Bolt Pistols ahead of time.

Now, it's of course different for 'Ard Boyz and Slugga Boyz, but I (at least!) tend to see the 30-strong squads mostly as Shoota Boyz. But still, killing off some Boyz ahead of time by firing the Flamer and your Bolt Pistols before charging ups the odds even more in your favor.

If you're eternally afraid of Ork Boyz squads, you're going to lose objective missions pretty much every time; there are a few keys to beating them:

1) Understand that they benefit enormously from the charge. Not only do they have a high model count (and thus get more attacks from charging), but Furious Charge further boosts their assault power. It's rarely going to be beneficial for you to stand back and double tap Bolters and then take the charge next turn as opposed to fire Bolt Pistols and charge them pre-emptively.

2) Boyz suffer pretty badly when they lose assaults; either they're Fearless (and thus take No Retreat wounds at a remarkable pace due to only have a 6+ armor save when they lose combat), or they have to take their (often poor) Leadership tests and risk being run down with their terrible Initiative -- note that if the marines win and the Orks attempt to flee, the marines have a 5 out of 6 chance of wiping them out with a Sweeping Advance due to the Initiative difference.

3) If they're in 30-man squads, their mobility is very limited, and you should have plenty of opportunity to weaken them enough that a single charging Tactical Squad can finish them off. If they're in transports, they're going to be in small enough numbers that... a single charging Tactical Squad will finish them off.

So, do not overestimate Ork assault power, especially that of Boyz. They're only scary when they charge, and the essence of skill as a general when playing against Orks is denying them those charges.

Also, to echo many of the other threads -- get transports. Orks certainly have tools to pop transports (Lootas are one of the best units at the game at doing so), but overall they're not great at doing so as they have limited force org slots that they can put good transport-killing units in, and their poor BS makes most of their squad unreliable at best at stopping transports. Furthermore, Orks are extremely limited in solutions to Land Raiders.


* - Brief mathhammer; Tactical Squad on the charge (assuming Bolter on the sergeant) gets 21 attacks * 1/2 hit * 1/2 wound * 5/6 pass armor = 4.375 dead Orks. 24.625 Shoota Boyz swing back, * 2 attacks each * 1/2 hit * 1/3 wound * 1/3 kill = 2.736 dead marines. The Nob swings his Power Klaw, 3 attacks * 1/2 hit * 5/6 wound * all kill = 1.25 dead marines, for a total of 3.986 dead marines. If you assume the Flamer kills 2 Orks, the remaining 9 Bolt Pistols in the squad will kill 3 more for 5 less Orks on the charge which reduces their average kill tally to 3.431 marines. The next round, though, is not pleasant for the marines, due to losing the charging bonus and losing more of their offensive output, but the point remains that Orks can lose to even basic marines in assault.

Learn the rules well. Play the game with a rulebook open at your side, and any time you have a question about how something works, look it up immediately.

This is how you get the basis for good tactics, is by learning the rules upon which these tactics are based.

After you've got the main rules down well, start learning the different codices. These rules are not as important to know in detail, but it is very important to know the capabilities of your enemies as this knowledge will inform your decisions in the game.

DarkHound wrote:Melee armies shouldn't be able to reach CC until turn 3.

I think you'll find that Orks have ways of getting around that.

The Waagh, combined with open-topped vehicles can get you pretty quickly.

12 inch move w/ Trukks and BW, 8 inch assault when accounting for the disembark range. Add in RPJs for the extra inch of movement on transports, and you get a 21 inch effective assault range.

In terms of actually assaulting, Orks will be able to reliably get assaults on turn 2 when using transports. 12-13 inch move turn one, 21 inch assault on turn two, 33-34 inch total assault range/2 turns.

Transports are not exactly immune to being shot into pieces, and there is little to no chance of an Ork player actually being able to put their whole army into assault range. As mentioned before, Ork boys are not particularly scary if you manage to take the charge from them. Ini 2, S3, with a 6+ save, not a very scary unit for most things to face. Sluggas fair better in this respect than Shootas do, simply because they have an extra attack each. Personally I worry more about Shootas, simply because they are more flexible, and can make full use of open topped vehicles, especially the BWs.

In terms of tactics for beating 3 armies, I really couldn't give you any information that would be particularly useful, as I literally have no idea what you are specifically fighting against. I have to say that it generally sounds like you are unlucky, along with just lacking experience in the game. Footslogging orks should not be able to reliably get into assaults on turn two, but they will bring an enormous amount of wounds for you to deal with. Stay against your board edge to force the Ork player to slog the full range of the board, though.

Tau should not be doing fantastically against SM, and I would need to know what units you are facing, in order to give you solid advice. Mech armies tend to fair enormously better than static/footslogging ones, vs. Tau.

CSM shouldn't have any major advantages over your army, but that also depends on what units they are using.

Monster Rain wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Melee armies shouldn't be able to reach CC until turn 3.

I think you'll find that Orks have ways of getting around that.

The Waagh, combined with open-topped vehicles can get you pretty quickly.

He said his opponent was running a Horde army.

DarkHound wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Melee armies shouldn't be able to reach CC until turn 3.

I think you'll find that Orks have ways of getting around that.

The Waagh, combined with open-topped vehicles can get you pretty quickly.

He said his opponent was running a Horde army.

Heh. My mistake then.

Unless he runs Gazhkull.

Asides from Rhino's, this guy needs a drop pod or 2 for those dreadnaughts. Multimelta dread walking across the field screams "kill me before i wreck your gak up in a few turns!", drop pod dreadnaught is "Kill me or else i will wreck your gak up! p.s i just multimelta'd your hammerhead/battlewagon/CSM LR "

As Flavius Infernus said, talk to your opponent after the game. Ask what you could have done better. Best way of getting a better grasp on tactics hands down.

Thanks for the advice guys, and sorry if this sounded like whining. I just got a wee bit too mad at a table-top game.

It's cool.

I've lost hair over the Orks as well. It's a tough army to play against!

The problem is that you're asking for list building advice when it sounds like you just don't have the basics of the game down.

OK,
here is a lot of good advice above but one thing I think you need to do is think about what each and every unit of yours is supposed to do. Then look through your army book and see if it is the best unit to do that with. For example your devestator squads with all missle luanchers is a decent vehicle killer, ok troop killer, has great range, some survivability, but is expensive and has virtually no mobility. For the same price can you get something better? With this unit I would go through the following analysis:
1. What are the other units in my bok that fulfill the same role: 3 heavy flamer, multi-melta land speeders do and are better in every role except survivability. There are more, go find them.
2. By changing the way I deploy these can I increase effectiveness. Personally I would consider breaking this into two squads of 5 with 2 missle luanchers each.
3. Am I exploiting their strengths. A 48 inch range is great. Ensure your deployment is using all of it.

You need to go through this analysis for every single one of your units.

This is the strategy part of the game - building an effective list. Off the top I think you need to take a close look at the following units:
1. Terminators - Regular terminators are not high on my list of things I lke, assualt terminators in larer squads are absolutely great.
2. Tac squads - What are you doing with your tac squads? Basic marines standing around and shoting their 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon when it is in range with their bolters rarely make up their points. People generally mech uptheir tac squads for effectiveness. I would consider the razor back and a 6 man squad. Look at the rules and figure out how much ling range firepower you can pour done someones throat.
3. Dreadnaughts - they are all about delivery as av 12 will not hold up to punishments. Consider a 35 point drop pod. also upgrade to the heavy flamer. Nothing is better than roasted lootas in the morning.

Next is tactics - The best list in the world will not help you if you misplay them. I have found that the difference between good players and great players is that the great players do not make mistakes. Ever. Imagine a game where you didn;t make one bad move. There are people that play at that level all the time. The problem is that after 10 games you still do not know what a bad move is or how to avoid it. That takes years of experience. One thing I have done to get better is to sit bck at the end of the game regardless of how it went and consider every move on the battlefield, what went well and what went wrong. I like to talk to my opponents about it and get their thoughts. I would strongly encourage you to do the same with the guys you are loosing to. Also consider finding the best person in your gaming group and just watching them play a whole game. If possible get them to answer questions about the game and why they are moving in certian ways. Most new people do not see the chess part of this gam where I am moving in certian ways this turn to position myself for the next turn or even the turn after.

Lastly, ensure that every unit has a role. Most new players see don;t have every unit contributing to the fight. Every unit has a role and a preferred angle of attack. Try and emphasize those strengths. Even the list you hve which is sub optimal can win against the armies you are facing if you approach the game different. Here is something I would try next time you play the orks anhiliation.

Play the defended flank, or denied flank. Set your entire army up in one corner of the battle field with the best line of fire. Use 1 tac squad strung out at 2" intervals as your main line and another tac squad as a secondar line. Ensure that the two squads cannot by charged by the same unit. Your counter charge lines are your terminator squads and your dreadnaughts. Use assualt terminators or proxy for them. The idea is that once the orks hit and potentially kill your tac squads you will conter charge their line with the terminators and dreadnuaght. User ypur devestators, vindicator and preadator to hold down your flank and provide initial fire into their units.

T T T T T T T T T T T


DR TA TA TA TA TA T T T T T T T T T
ED
_______________________DR TA TA TA TA TA
_______________________ED
___________________________D D D D D D VVVVV
____________________________________________VVVVV

Somehing like that.

Here are some basic tips that I have found work for me against my ork opponent (but keep in mind I have never won against him either):

Stay clear of his deathrollers. They'll smear anything you let get in its way.

Get the charge (initiate the assaults before they do). You need to rob those boys of their extra attack, as well as boost your own attacks.

Deployment strategies are things you need to learn. It isn't a bad thing to go second in some cases, especially since you can try to seize the initiative at the last second. Basically though, you need to learn how to deploy in a "refused flank". This is where, given a standard pitched battle deployment, you lump all your units onto the side of the table furthest from your enemies deployed units. This gives you more time to shoot at them and whittle them down before they make it into assault range. This is crucial to us guard players, and it helps marine players as well.

Focus-fire on units to destroy them completely. Don't try to spread your fire out among several different units. If at all possible, you want to dump as much firepower on a unit as you can until it is destroyed before moving on to the next.



As for issues with your list, I would say you might benefit from a 3rd tactical squad. They are your only scoring unit, so being able to take another will help in objective games. Putting them in rhinos will make them more maneuverable, but will only add killpoints in Annihilation games, so consider that carefully. Honestly, against orks and tau, you may desire to go with at least one Land Raider. No weak rear-armor helps against assaults, and it has plenty of oomph to blast at tau until it is close enough to disgorge assault troops.

Wow Prometheus...

Lot of good advice there, buddy! I might just try that formation!

BrPrometheus wrote:OK,
here is a lot of good advice above but one thing I think you need to do is think about what each and every unit of yours is supposed to do. Then look through your army book and see if it is the best unit to do that with. For example your devestator squads with all missle luanchers is a decent vehicle killer, ok troop killer, has great range, some survivability, but is expensive and has virtually no mobility. For the same price can you get something better? With this unit I would go through the following analysis:
1. What are the other units in my bok that fulfill the same role: 3 heavy flamer, multi-melta land speeders do and are better in every role except survivability. There are more, go find them.
2. By changing the way I deploy these can I increase effectiveness. Personally I would consider breaking this into two squads of 5 with 2 missle luanchers each.
3. Am I exploiting their strengths. A 48 inch range is great. Ensure your deployment is using all of it.

You need to go through this analysis for every single one of your units.

This is the strategy part of the game - building an effective list. Off the top I think you need to take a close look at the following units:
1. Terminators - Regular terminators are not high on my list of things I lke, assualt terminators in larer squads are absolutely great.
2. Tac squads - What are you doing with your tac squads? Basic marines standing around and shoting their 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon when it is in range with their bolters rarely make up their points. People generally mech uptheir tac squads for effectiveness. I would consider the razor back and a 6 man squad. Look at the rules and figure out how much ling range firepower you can pour done someones throat.
3. Dreadnaughts - they are all about delivery as av 12 will not hold up to punishments. Consider a 35 point drop pod. also upgrade to the heavy flamer. Nothing is better than roasted lootas in the morning.

Next is tactics - The best list in the world will not help you if you misplay them. I have found that the difference between good players and great players is that the great players do not make mistakes. Ever. Imagine a game where you didn;t make one bad move. There are people that play at that level all the time. The problem is that after 10 games you still do not know what a bad move is or how to avoid it. That takes years of experience. One thing I have done to get better is to sit bck at the end of the game regardless of how it went and consider every move on the battlefield, what went well and what went wrong. I like to talk to my opponents about it and get their thoughts. I would strongly encourage you to do the same with the guys you are loosing to. Also consider finding the best person in your gaming group and just watching them play a whole game. If possible get them to answer questions about the game and why they are moving in certian ways. Most new people do not see the chess part of this gam where I am moving in certian ways this turn to position myself for the next turn or even the turn after.

Lastly, ensure that every unit has a role. Most new players see don;t have every unit contributing to the fight. Every unit has a role and a preferred angle of attack. Try and emphasize those strengths. Even the list you hve which is sub optimal can win against the armies you are facing if you approach the game different. Here is something I would try next time you play the orks anhiliation.

Play the defended flank, or denied flank. Set your entire army up in one corner of the battle field with the best line of fire. Use 1 tac squad strung out at 2" intervals as your main line and another tac squad as a secondar line. Ensure that the two squads cannot by charged by the same unit. Your counter charge lines are your terminator squads and your dreadnaughts. Use assualt terminators or proxy for them. The idea is that once the orks hit and potentially kill your tac squads you will conter charge their line with the terminators and dreadnuaght. User ypur devestators, vindicator and preadator to hold down your flank and provide initial fire into their units.

T T T T T T T T T T T


DR TA TA TA TA TA T T T T T T T T T
ED
_______________________DR TA TA TA TA TA
_______________________ED
___________________________D D D D D D VVVVV
____________________________________________VVVVV

Somehing like that.

That seems quite good but... don't the devastators have to shoot past my own units? Doesn't that give the enemy a cover save?

Monster Rain wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Melee armies shouldn't be able to reach CC until turn 3.

I think you'll find that Orks have ways of getting around that.

The Waagh, combined with open-topped vehicles can get you pretty quickly.

He said his opponent was running a Horde army.

Heh. My mistake then.

Unless he runs Gazhkull.

A 30 strong mob of boys can CC in turn 2, it just takes a bit of luck.
Turn 1: Move 6" and run. If the run result is a 5 or 6 Waaaaagh next turn.
Turn 2:Move another 6" so the total distance moved is 17" or 18" Any fleet result that pushes the army 19" deep will put them in assault range of any unit on the edge of the non ork's deployment zone.

If you take the average roll of 2 runs which is 7" that means orks on foot should be able to transverse 19" by the end of turn 2 placing them withing waaaagh fleet assault range of anything that deploys on the edge of the non ork's deployment zone.

If you're really worried about a turn 2 ork assault only use the 1st 9" of the deployment zone for units that are not in difficult terrain.

schadenfreude wrote:A 30 strong mob of boys can CC in turn 2, it just takes a bit of luck.
Turn 1: Move 6" and run. If the run result is a 5 or 6 Waaaaagh next turn.
Turn 2:Move another 6" so the total distance moved is 17" or 18" Any fleet result that pushes the army 19" deep will put them in assault range of any unit on the edge of the non ork's deployment zone.

If you take the average roll of 2 runs which is 7" that means orks on foot should be able to transverse 19" by the end of turn 2 placing them withing waaaagh fleet assault range of anything that deploys on the edge of the non ork's deployment zone.

If you're really worried about a turn 2 ork assault only use the 1st 9" of the deployment zone for units that are not in difficult terrain.

Yeah, but big unweildy mobs get members caught in terrain, or get squized into choke points. Trust me, I'm an Ork horde player. You'll probably only make 15" in two turns and since the enemy is probably in cover you'll take a terrain test that you'll probably fail.

DarkHound wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:A 30 strong mob of boys can CC in turn 2, it just takes a bit of luck.
Turn 1: Move 6" and run. If the run result is a 5 or 6 Waaaaagh next turn.
Turn 2:Move another 6" so the total distance moved is 17" or 18" Any fleet result that pushes the army 19" deep will put them in assault range of any unit on the edge of the non ork's deployment zone.

If you take the average roll of 2 runs which is 7" that means orks on foot should be able to transverse 19" by the end of turn 2 placing them withing waaaagh fleet assault range of anything that deploys on the edge of the non ork's deployment zone.

If you're really worried about a turn 2 ork assault only use the 1st 9" of the deployment zone for units that are not in difficult terrain.

Yeah, but big unweildy mobs get members caught in terrain, or get squized into choke points. Trust me, I'm an Ork horde player. You'll probably only make 15" in two turns and since the enemy is probably in cover you'll take a terrain test that you'll probably fail.

You're right about how it normally works, but keep in mind a new player might make the mistake of deploying out in the open with a clear path between their squad and the ork deployment zone. New players need to learn the proper use of terrain.

Note being out in the open isn't necessarily bad against orks. Most ork shooting doesn't negate a 3+ power armor save. The only ork unit for space marine players to look out for is tankbustas, and they can't shoot at infantry in power armor if there is a visible tank they can shoot at. Most ork players like lootas for shooting. As nasy as lootas are a 4+ cover save does nothing for marines in 3+ power armor being shot at by lootas.

When marines are playing orks they need to worry less about being in cover and need to worry more about how to use cover. Most terrain pieces favor the orks more than marines as it gives orks a 4+ cover save that marines usually just don't need. Cover slows orks down, but does give them cover.

When placing objectives and terrain keep a couple things in mind.

#1 Always place objectives out in the open: Marine players don't like being wide out in the open with no cover to take an objective, but ork players really don't like being without cover. Just comfort yourself that it will hurt the orks more than it will hurt the marines.

#2 Make bottle necks as Darkhoud suggested. That will help cluster orks for template weapons.

#3 Force orks into open killing fields. The terrain that matters the most is the terrain that the orks are in the turn before they assault. If orks are 12" from marines and in cover the marine player has made a terrible mistake. Orks should always be forced into open terrain the turn before their assault.

#4 When orks are less than 12" away don't be afraid to advance on them. If the ork unit is alone a tactical squad should single fire bolt pistols and assault rather than rapid firing their boltguns. The extra casualties from rapid firing is just not worth giving the ork player the extra assault dice and furious charge.

You can't beat orks as SM OMG i have the same trouble but with guard vs. orks. What i found was to put a line of ork fodder i.e guardsmen and a leman russ behind them to chew them up it works. So maybe you should put a line of SMs and pound them with your vindicator, orbital bombardment and dreadnoughts. As for tau never fourgt them.

Well the best way for SM to beat orks is to sell your soul to the ruinous powers of the dark gods of chaos. Every marine gets a bolt gun, pistol, and cc weapon so we can charge orks, every Friday is a casual dress jeans Friday, and we have bingo every Sunday.

well your first phew months your guna be losing most of your games then you get usto the game figure out what to do and start to win

Marines do just fine against orks.

If you're fighting Orks, bring more long range stuff, a Dakka Predator(Autocannon, Sponson HB) are cheap, around 100 points i think, I would considering running 1-2 of them and 1-2 whirlwinds and pummel them from range. I would also bring several devestator squads with heavy bolters.

Against chaos marines, lots of plasma and lascannons. A laspred would help, sterngaurd arent bad, with half combi-plasma half combi-meltas. Lascannons are needed to drop their daemon princes fast.

Against Tau, bring assault troops, and don't rely on many vehicles to win, they won't live long. Run everyone in transports. For TAC squads, run razorbacks. Razorbacks with heavy bolters or TL lascannons, then combat squad them keeping the heavy weapon team behind in cover and put the serg and special weapon in the razorback. Hope you get first turn, then move up 12" and pop smoke. Whatever lives next turn, prolly a fair number, move up 12 again and drop out and start shooting. Your lascannons and heavy weapons you left on your side of board need to be taking out high priority targets(hammerheads, crisis suits, pathfinders) especially pathfinders, nothing will cause your downfall more than pathfinders. 8 pathfinders getting 4 Markerlight hits on something is very very bad for you. It can turn those crap shot fire warriors into bs 4 or 5. 3+ armor is great until you have 4 10 man FW teams at bs4 pummelling you with 80 BS4 S5 shots after they dump out of devilfish. The key to beating tau is taking out the most dangerous things first, and rushing up on them, each turn of shooting they have unmolested is going to hurt you. Rush up in there with assault marines and kill some stuff. With meltabombs and a powerfist they can annihilate pretty much anything that tau can bring.

Friends don't let friends start playing MEQ armies.

Switch to Orks.