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Today I thought I'd take a few minutes and read through the new BA codex. The Stormraven really is an interesting unit. When I noticed it's cost, I was a bit stunned. It's less than a Land Raider, yet has much more versatility and can bring a frightening amount of firepower to bear with being both a Fast vehicle and having PotMS (move 12" and fire 2 weapons plus all defensives). I thought to myself, "what would be an appropriate cost for the Stormraven?" With that question in mind, I turned to the only source GW has provided for pricing a vehicle; Chapter Approved 2004. Jervis has an article titled "Vehicle Design Rules" that, suprisingly enough, provides a point pricing guide to players building their own vehicles. Now, this was written in 2004, so it does reference an older rules set, yet many of the points costs translate suprisingly well.

I set to work firstly by determining whether or not this was accurate for 5th edition. I saw no reason why it shouldn't be, but for thoroughness, I took the profiles of several existing vehicles from codicies written in 5th edition and "designed" them using the points cost in Jervis' article. I used the Rhino, Chimera, Leman Russ Battle Tank, and Land Raider; 4 of the most commonly seen vehicles. It didn't always translate perfectly, due to rules such as Repair, PotMS, Command Vehicle, fire points, and Assault Vehicle. However, I did find that every vehicle ended up slightly more than it's point cost in 5th edition codicies (with the exception of the Leman Russ. The average increase was ~10 points.

Taking this a step further, I "designed" the Stormraven using Jervis' point guide. I took a few liberties, such as turning PotMS into "agile" for points purposes, and using the Necron Living Metal rule minus a few points for the Stormraven's Ceramite Plating.

Going off of what I could, and subtracting 10, the Stormraven came out to 267. Now, this point value did not include the Skies of Blood or Assault Vehicle special rules, or the 4 Bloodstrike Missiles that the Stormraven comes equipped with. Regardless, there is only one conclusion to be drawn here.

Compared to average vehicle prices from other 5th edition codicies, the Stormraven is very underpriced. It is 67 points underpriced if Assault Vehicle, Skies of Blood, and Bloodstrike Missiles have no points worth. They do, of course, so the Stormraven is at least 67 points underpriced, probably much more.

Now, my modus operandi was not perfect, I'll be the first to admit that, but looking at how much you get for the points, the Stormraven is definitely one of the best values for vehicles in the game. Your thoughts???

Grey Knights are gonna PWN everyone when the new codex comes out in december

its a very effective underpriced unit.

its not so much what it can do by itself. its what it can do when combined with 10 assault marines and a dreadnought.

definitly needs a point hike.

@OP: the VDR simply doesn't work as-is for Codex units. And extrapolating from cheap transports to something expensive like the Storm Raven is a big problem.

At best, you'd take a ratio discount, rather than a flat 10-pt adjustment. Try comparing with any Apoc unit, and you'll see.

So that 50-VDR pt Rhino costing 35 pts in Codex has a 30% discount. 277 VDR pts - 30% = 193 Codex pts, round to 200 pts. Perfect!

If you compare the Storm Raven to a Vendetta then it might seem undercosted but then again one Hydra can drop them like a rock. I see Hydras becoming a staple unit in IG armies (with camo nets).

G

I haven't played against the BA codex. However, my instinct is that a) it's very good on paper, b) it's an expensive, threatening unit that still is far less tough than a lan raider against long-range firepower. Because most people will mount conversions on the valkyrie stand, and it's almost certain to use that set-up when a model is released, it will be visible all the time.

Conclusion: As good as it is, most people will be able to take it down, so it will be mostly an alpha-strike tool. If I had one, I'd only deploy it on the table if I had first turn, and then I'd hold my breath while my opponent rolled to seize the initiative.

Do you have a link to the Jervis 2004 article?

You don't take only one SRG, you take at least two. I saw a guy take three to maginificent effect as he used them as cheaper and faster LRC. SRG are really good with a full unit of packless ass marines and a furioso.

In one turn the guy moved behind a tank and dropped the dread which shot it's melta gun at half range. The SRG shot the tanks passengers and the dread assaulted what was left.

Yes they are fragile, but man are they effective.

Of course its underpriced. GW has or will have a new model to sell. Look at the new hotness in tyranids that took over the carnifex role basically. Tyrgron/Mawaw or whatever it is.

carmachu wrote:Of course its underpriced. GW has a new model to sell. Look at the new hotness in tyranids that took over the carnifex role basically. Tyrgron/Mawaw or whatever it is.

Someone apparently didn't get the memo that there is no Stormraven model.

And a 200 point AV 12 Valkyrie-height model isn't going to stick for very long. Here's how I judge army lists these days: "How well does it do against Guard going 1st?" Raven's gonna crash and burn in that scenario.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

carmachu wrote:Of course its underpriced. GW has a new model to sell. Look at the new hotness in tyranids that took over the carnifex role basically. Tyrgron/Mawaw or whatever it is.

Someone apparently didn't get the memo that there is no Stormraven model.

And a 200 point AV 12 Valkyrie-height model isn't going to stick for very long. Here's how I judge army lists these days: "How well does it do against Guard going 1st?" Raven's gonna crash and burn in that scenario.

Oh there will be, as we saw previews. Second wave will see it come and folks grab them....

I did this, and get very different values for the 'common' tanks.

I'm using the VDR on Army Builder, which I belive to be the same thing.

I get:

Rhino:SM Tank, Armour 11/11/10, 10 transport, SB, Smokes and SLight - 89
Chimera:Imperial Tank, Armour 12/10/10, 12 transport, ML, HB, Smokes and SLight, Amphibious - 136
Land Raider:SM Tank, Armour 14/14/14, 12 transport, TL HB, 2x TL LC, Smokes and SLight, PotMS - 344
Leman Russ:Imperial Tank, Armour 14/13/10, Battle Cannon, HB - 175

There are a LOT of problems with the VDR. Overcosting of everything generaly, and some things much more than others (Transport is 1p per place, but Amphibious is 10 points? What kind of terrian was that tested on?)

The VDR article made mention that running the numbers on GW vehicles would result in a codex vehicle costing more in VDR. VDR users were paying premium points to make their dream tanks. Regardless, using those VDR to compare current 5th edition vehicles isn't going to work. There's no magic equation used to determine point costs. GW goes with "what feels right".

Flagg07 wrote:The VDR article made mention that running the numbers on GW vehicles would result in a codex vehicle costing more in VDR. VDR users were paying premium points to make their dream tanks. Regardless, using those VDR to compare current 5th edition vehicles isn't going to work. There's no magic equation used to determine point costs. GW goes with "what marketing feels is right".

Fixed it for you.

So it looks like every new army is getting a big, beefy new toy. IG actually got a model for their must have, nids have to scrounge two together, and oh-lookey! Now we get to weld a valk and a land-raider together!

Yay money!

Anyone think that the VDR is over-costed to keep people honest? Yes, you can build an AV14 bunker with 20 billion lasguns on it, but you'll have to pay for it (and pay for it, and pay for it).

Yeah, to much of a focus in regards to marketing and over the top units (Sanguinary Guard anyone?). I personally believe is that if all new codices continue this trend, 40k will de-generate into toyhammer (where armies compete to see who has the most out of this world units).

candy.man wrote:Yeah, to much of a focus in regards to marketing and over the top units (Sanguinary Guard anyone?). I personally believe is that if all new codices continue this trend, 40k will de-generate into toyhammer (where armies compete to see who has the most out of this world units).

Sanguinary guard aren't over the top. They're useless. A 5 man unit of very expensive models? I hope that people bring that against me, b/c I'll slaughter it with my full units that cost less points.

On topic I love the storm raven. It's dead sexy.

DarkHound wrote:Anyone think that the VDR is over-costed to keep people honest?

Yes, that was the express intent.

However, it completely falls apart with inexpensive massed Ordnance for AV14 Superheavies.

I think that the pricing for the Stormraven is a bit low, but that is balanced IMHO by the expensive nature of the codex. I was glad to see BA players get a very good codex, but I was even more happy to find that a higher cost was intentionally built in to balance things out.

carmachu wrote:Of course its underpriced. GW has or will have a new model to sell. Look at the new hotness in tyranids that took over the carnifex role basically. Tyrgron/Mawaw or whatever it is.

Except of course for GW's long history of new, much hyped and way over-costed models. Possessed, anyone?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

candy.man wrote:Yeah, to much of a focus in regards to marketing and over the top units (Sanguinary Guard anyone?). I personally believe is that if all new codices continue this trend, 40k will de-generate into toyhammer (where armies compete to see who has the most out of this world units).

We complained when options were removed. Now we complain that new options are being added.

Honestly, I'm not that scared of it. Sure it packs the Dakka, but it can't take the heat. The reason Vendettas and Valks are so nice is because they're also cheap. The Stormraven is *relatively* cheap, which isn't the same thing.

It isn't a great assault transport, since it still can't move more than 12" without forcing the unit to Deepstrike yet lacks the protection of a heavier chasis. It also doesn't put out enough dakka for its points to justify it as a gunship. Like the Obliterator, it has all sorts of things it can do, but has to choose one and is then the least efficient at it. Unlike the Obliterator, it isn't the easiest source of a vital tool.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Anyone think that the VDR is over-costed to keep people honest?

Yes, that was the express intent.

However, it completely falls apart with inexpensive massed Ordnance for AV14 Superheavies.

In all fairness it fell apart only when folks ignored the last step: playtest and adjust.

Which, admittedly, many folks did.

Jack

Personally I think the cost is fine as both a blood angels player and one who plays against them. I think the storm raven is a gimmic to sell more models I don't see it being super effective against high end lists. Especially if you don't get the alpha strike with it. Its scary on paper but not so much in practice. If anything I hope it means peopel will pack less melta.

You wouldn't need to pack melta to pop that thing even if it wasn't immune to it, what with it being AV12 and all.


i would just buy a valkyerie, put the appropriate weapons on it and call it good.

Exactly. Being an AV12 Fast Skimmer, the Storm Raven will die just like every other AV12 Fast Skimmer.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Exactly. Being an AV12 Fast Skimmer, the Storm Raven will die just like every other AV12 Fast Skimmer.

Except WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more expensive.

DarkHound wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Exactly. Being an AV12 Fast Skimmer, the Storm Raven will die just like every other AV12 Fast Skimmer.

Except WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more expensive.

Not compared to a full-kit Falcon.

I think it's like any of the 'cool' stuff with MEQ armies. It can do very well, but is priced so that their inconsistance make them not an auto-include.

In general the choice is this:
Faster Delivery System at the cost of AV (Raven)
Slower Delivery System for more AV (Raider)

There are other issues as well. LRs are dedicated trans while the Raven takes a Hvy slot.
Ravens who move flat out get an inherent cover save while Raiders can only get cover the normal way and with smokes.

Do you really? really? need to deliver that dread?
If you do and don't want to do so via Pod, then the Raven is prob the choice to go with, else the Raider or the ever so reliable Rhino (moving 18" /shock and awe).