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I've noticed especially with BA now, people tend to spam their Meltas.

now, don't get me wrong. I love melta, it's by far the best CRC weapon in the game, but I like plasma for it's added effectiveness with range and being able to take out a dreadnought without the risk of getting pummeled by it.

SM tacs can take a quadriple plasma list, consisting of a P. cannon, rifle and pisol, as well as a Combi-plasma.

for the most part, the cannon fares well against newly DS terminators (abseloutely murdering wolfguards.) and for the most part wounding on a two plus.

Then there is the rifle, which while only capable of taking out two targets at most, is still a long range murderer.

the pistol fares well, though it often only means a charge is underway, and is often aschuned for more versatile gear.

the combi plasma is nice for picking off a 'one off' two-terminator target and is often very likely to make them down.

all in all, plasma is useful. it is the best weapon against Terminators, yet it seems underused.

PS: for those of you who say "well yeah, but what about gets hot! !"

there is a simple answer:

A MatEQ has a 1 in 18 chance of dieing from gets hot.
A IGatEQ has a 1 in 12.

I think part of the issue is cost plasma in general costs 5 points more than a melta. When that is carried over a large number of weapons you end up wondering if those extra points might not be better spent elsewhere.

There is also the issue of rapid fire versus assault, you can fire a melta at a vehicle or unit and still charge afterward. This may not be an issue with some units, but a unit of assault troops with a fist then gets more chances to crack a vehicle.

Other issues include the fact that the melta is the best against vehicles while plasma versus terminators can be solved with massed fire. TH/SS termies also make using plasma a bit less of an advantage than it used to be. The same goes for cover which is now easier than ever to find.

I was just wondering about this!

It's this same points cost for either melta or plasma for my stormtroopers and I was wondering about the drawbacks of taking one plasma over a melta...and still keeping my other melta...as I do play Grey Knights

Two melta guns gives you an extra chance to hit and therefor kill a tank. Plasma can help against light vehicles, but in general I find that a unit should have a clear purpose and two weapon types instead of one rarely helps with this.

a sad truth of the situation is that you can use massed firepower to do the job plasma is for, whereas no matter how many times you shoot that land raider with your boltguns/lasguns/autocannons/etc., you're not going to scratch the paint. As we moved into 5th edition, mobility became more and more important. As such, the 24" single shot of a plasmagun became less and less used (or useful). So against prime plasmagun targets (marines, terminators, MCs, etc.) it boils down to the following:

Plasmaguns
2 shots

Meltaguns
1 shot
can assault after
saves 5 points

twice the firepower is certainly good, but when faced with minimal tank killing, easily obtained cover saves, and the inability to follow up with a charge, the plasma becomes a tough sell, generally speaking.

I feel I should add the caveat that my space wolf list currently includes a 10-man grey hunter unit with 2 plasmaguns in a rhino. Completely counter to my sentiments above, I know, but in this case the 24" single tap is actually quite a boon; they can camp in a rhino mid-field (or simply on an objective) and pop 2 shots at targets of opportunity while timing a strike to back up the charge of one of my tooled up Grey Hunter units with the 12" move, disembark, rapid fire. Melta isn't always the answer, but it's by far the better multipurpose one.

I run a Plasma Spam List. at 3k it is a total of 27 Plamsa Weapons including Plasma Pistols [10], Plasma Guns [6] and Plama Cannons [11].
Unless I get to face a Land Raider I don't have to many problems [I also have a lot Power Fist and Malta-Bombs]
MEQ's to Orks just melt away to my firepower on good days.

Plasma definitely has benefits over a melta/flamer, but I just don't find it that useful in extremely large numbers against the current armies that people run(ie mech/horde/non-MEQ). They also cause wounds on the user rarely. Not a major problem in small numbers, but when multiplied many times in a "spam" list it starts to become a killer. Put melta/flamer on your infantry, and save the points that would be spent on plasma for other upgrades that achieve a higher/equal impact without killing your own units.

Anpu42 wrote:I run a Plasma Spam List. at 3k it is a total of 27 Plamsa Weapons including Plasma Pistols [10], Plasma Guns [6] and Plama Cannons [11].

At 3k I can bring a Shadowsword, so what's your point? Not to mention that you lack an effective way to kill a tanks, big or small. Powerfists are hardly anti-tank, and Meltabombs are generally worse.

The Defenestrator and Halsfield put it, it costs more to do less. Its a generalist weapon: it can stand in shoot, rapid fire in CQC, damage vehicles, penetrate armor. You pay for it all, and you waste points if you aren't utilizing an aspect of it.

True, but tanks don't Hold Ground, Infatry does.

Anpu42 wrote:True, but tanks don't Hold Ground, Infatry does.

No, Troops hold ground. All those Plasma Cannons are mounted on Devastators (or Long Fangs), so they aren't capturing it anymore than that Shadowsword.

However, that's not my point. At 3k the game starts to break: Dark Eldar and the other shunned codicies have filled all their slots, and even Space Marines have to start taking things they don't need. 3k is where Apoc starts because the standard FoC stops being fair. Saying you have a killer list at 3k points is foolish because it isn't fair, the same way having a killer list at 500 points is.

Its apples to oranges, and depends on the meta where you play. I used to run tac squads with plasma cannon and gun, but i switched over to lascannon/melta gun/combi melta after everyone meched up. Both work well though.

The plasma cannon/melta gun is also a solid combination.

As a general rule i equip my tac marines after the rest of my army is selected, and have them do what the rest of the list cannot.

I have not seen ant AV 14 [exept the new BA] Troop Choices, now I could be wrong.
True the meta I am in we mostly play Groundsloging list and the terain goes from hardly any or max visability of 8"-12". I also fight MEQ's, Orks and Nids.

The Defenestrator wrote:twice the firepower is certainly good, but when faced with minimal tank killing, easily obtained cover saves, and the inability to follow up with a charge, the plasma becomes a tough sell, generally speaking.

QFT.

Plasma does still have a use, but it is now a limited set of uses, rather than a catch-all for people who don't want to think about list-building or deployment.

As for the OP. Taking a plasma cannon, plasma gun, and plasma pistol in the same squad is insanity. The three different weapons may all be good against the same target type, but that in no way covers the ground lost by the radically different ways in which the weapons are used.

Plasma in a stand-off fire platform like Devastators is not as effective due to the prevalence of cover saves. You need at least some mobility to deliver the AP2 death where it is most needed. Think about it, a flamer hitting three Space Marines will cause just as much damage as a rapid firing plasmagun against those same Space Marines cowering in the 4+ cover of their transport. Against anything T3 or Sv5+, the flamer wins.

IG are probably the best at handling plasma. Not only is the Executioner the final word in plasma platforms (those armored sentinels with plasmas are also not bad at all for 75 points), but they can field tons of plasmaguns in a single unit, and have an order that forces re-rolls of cover saves.

I have a unit of Veterans with 3 plasmaguns and demolitions. Outflanking with Harker or Creed, these guys can make an absolute mess of any unit. That's a LOT of AP2 heading at you, most often from an angle that allows no cover save.



Playing 40K without any terrain is just wrong.

Terminus wrote:Plasma in a stand-off fire platform like Devastators is not as effective due to the prevalence of cover saves. You need at least some mobility to deliver the AP2 death where it is most needed. Think about it, a flamer hitting three Space Marines will cause just as much damage as a rapid firing plasmagun against those same Space Marines cowering in the 4+ cover of their transport. Against anything T3 or Sv5+, the flamer wins.

True, but a Flamer wounds on a 4+ abd the Melta and Plasma wound on a 2+
The Plasma will Instiant Kill T-3, the Melta T-4 and both ignore FNP

Granted, but it also costs 3x more.

Yes and true.
Give me my Plasma Spam vs Death Company

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Its apples to oranges, and depends on the meta where you play. I used to run tac squads with plasma cannon and gun, but i switched over to lascannon/melta gun/combi melta after everyone meched up. Both work well though.

I really don't see this as apples to oranges. They both take up the same slots in the same squads, all are special weapons, are used in the shooting phase, and even share similar effective killing ranges. The main difference is that one is an assault weapon and the other is rapid fire. It is more like someone asking which variety of apple you enjoy the most.

What weapon will be most effective certainly depends on your meta, but a balanced list will always be a balanced list. I personally prefer to take an army that has a better chance of taking on anything my opponent might set down instead of trying to tailor a list to be effective against what I have faced before or what I know my opponent often plays.

I also try to have differant set-ups for different Armies
My Imperial Tigers [DIY Marines]
-I currenly run 3 Tac Squads armed with PP, PG, PC
-My Assualt Squads have 3 PP each

With My Space Wolves
-2 Grey Hunter Packs: Flamer x2
-2 Grey Hunter Packs: Plasma Gun x2
-2 Grey Hunter Packs: Melta Gun x2

Anpu42 wrote:Yes and true.
Give me my Plasma Spam vs Death Company

Better be able to crack them out of my 'fun bus' first, before I get to you.

That's all I'm saying...

i run a chosen CSM 5 man unit with 2 plasma, a 2 melta and a flamer. Put em in the rhino and fire em out the hatch two of this, two of that... flamer to the face.... good versatile (yet really expensive) distraction unit. and If my dreadnoughts were sane it would be a waste of an elites choice. The plasmas see much more action than the rest of the selection

Well after fighting Nids yesterday, Plasma Guns are worth every point. With just 2 in a Grey Hunter Pack I shot apart One Gene Stealer Brood, Killing 4 with the PGs and the thing that spawns Guants in about 2 turns before the Blood Claw Pack Lead by a Wolf Priest Finished it off.

Plasma > Kills infantry best, tanks second. Generally prevents a charge

Melta > Kills tanks best. Can be combined with a charge, especially useful after opening up that transport.

Blood angels > Kills infantry pretty well (compared to guard, for example), when in close combat.

Simple beans. (With the new BA codex)

On other bean related news, executioners are awesome. I managed to get 14 wounds on a cron squad the other day (none died but c'est la vie).

Anpu42 wrote:Well after fighting Nids yesterday, Plasma Guns are worth every point. With just 2 in a Grey Hunter Pack I shot apart One Gene Stealer Brood, Killing 4 with the PGs and the thing that spawns Guants in about 2 turns before the Blood Claw Pack Lead by a Wolf Priest Finished it off.

Yes, because anecdotes are equal to general purpose in list building...

Also, you don't need to spend the points on plamsa to kill stealers as they die just fine to bolters. On the Tervigon issue, 4 shots, 2.666 hits, for 0.888 wounds isn't great and are actually worse than melta guns which get 2 hits, 1.333 hits, and 1.111 wounds for less points.

Norade wrote:Yes, because anecdotes are equal to general purpose in list building...

Also, you don't need to spend the points on plamsa to kill stealers as they die just fine to bolters. On the Tervigon issue, 4 shots, 2.666 hits, for 0.888 wounds isn't great and are actually worse than melta guns which get 2 hits, 1.333 hits, and 1.111 wounds for less points.

To Quote Solo: Never Tell me the Odds
Yes I know that Melta is the Better Tank Killer, but I roll with them.
I hit with Plasma, all Plasma.
There is nothing that will replace the look on my oponents face when all 4 Plasma Shots [Escpecialy with a Grey Hunter Pack lead by Logan on Relentless mode]

*Coff* Relentless Multi-meltas *coff*

Razerous wrote:*Coff* Relentless Multi-meltas *coff*

5x Relentless Plasma Cannons for Nid Hunting
with Logan and Arjac son of Thor
Drop Pod

Norade wrote:On the Tervigon issue, 4 shots, 2.666 hits, for 0.888 wounds isn't great and are actually worse than melta guns which get 2 hits, 1.333 hits, and 1.111 wounds for less points.

Shurely shome mishtake? Plasma guns should be looking at a 3+ to wound with no armour or FNP saves, so that'd be 2.66 hits and 1.77 wounds. Dunno how you got half of that, were you including a cover save? If so, it's only fair to apply that to meltas as well.

The Tervigon in question (Mine) started the turn with 5 Wounds left after being hit by 2 Plasma Guns it had 2 wounds left leaving it just so much meat for the Blood Claws.
And BTW 2 Plasma Guns + 5 Genestealers = 1 Genestealer

I always equip my PM w/ 2 Plasma Guns, A) because I modeled them that way and B) it helps them kill things since they aren't ever really gonna be assaulting anything.

I think the key here is what role the unit with the PGs are gonna do. Mostly they're used for taking down MEQs and MCs, and if you are lacking in this department of your list then PGs can really help. Combine the rapid fire with mobility and watch your Marine buddy shed a tear as he removes his models from the table without getting to roll any save.