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Ok guys, I am going to be blunt: I have never beaten my brother in a game of WH40K. In the five years that I have played him, He has played primarily the IG, and I have played CSM. It doesn't seem to matter what I do, the game is almost always over by turn 3, usually with me getting tabled, even when we play objective games. He just runs me over and I barely seem to put a dent into his army. I don't want to complain to him, because lets face it, that would be lame telling him to let me win, and that would make the victory cheap and not worth having. I have probably about 2500 points of CSM, and about 500 points of several other armies (mostly because our father couldn't decide what army he wanted to play, and I just bought them off of him when he decided he didn't want to play anymore.)

I don't want to make it sound like I am WAAC, because obviously I haven't exactly been winning. However, I am basically like the Emperers pointy sticks, "Deployed, then destroyed" and it is starting to wear thin. I am starting to get doubts and almost want to give up the hobby, simply because he is the only one I play against and I Never win. My lascannons never hurt his lemans, and those mop the floor with me. However, I have put too much into the game, and really like the fluff behind it, so I don't necesarrily want to give it up, but rather get better. If I could beat him one time as CSM, I would be happy.

So, can anyone give me some strategic help?

First off, this belongs in the tactics section. Secondly, would you please post an army list/ what you own so we know what you have to work with, and lastly, a list of what your brother is running/ what he owns would be nice. Thank you, and we will be able to help you after more data is found. you deserve a win.

Are you looking for strategy or tactics? Not the same thing at all.

In any event, there's not much we can do without knowing what you have. However:

1) Two Demon Princes with Lash of submission can take the wind out of most peoples' sails. This is considered very very cheesy, but if you've not won a game in five years, maybe justified.

2) After every game, ask your brother what he would have done in your place. Next game, do that.

3) Are you utterly certain that both of you (yes, both) are playing according to the rules? In five years even a terrible player should win a game or two by luck alone.

4) Swap lists. Make lists as usual, then exchange and play with one another's armies and codices. You will learn much.

5) IG aren't my strong suit, but I'm pretty sure that the Leman Russ is only AV14 on the front. Shoot from somewhere other than directly in front. That's why god invented deep-striking terminators with combi-meltas.

Ok, he USUALLY runs, in a 1000pt game, two command squads, a Leman, either a Devil Dog or another Leman, 10 Kasrkins, and the rest is infantry. He owns:

2 Leman Russes
A cubic Buttload of infantry
3 ogryns,
3 sentinals
Kasrkins
Hellhound
3 command squads
1 Baneblade
2 Chimeras

I like my infantry in rhinos, so I usually take a fair amount of them, though every peice of armor I take seems to get destroyed by the most stupid means. One time he blew up a dreadnaught with his Chimera....
I own:

2 Units of 10 CSM
1 Havoc Unit
3 bikers
1 Rhino
1 Dreadnaught
1 Obliterator
1 Unit of Plague Marines
1 Unit of Khorne Berserkers
1 Unit of Thousand sons
1 Unit of Possessed
1 Terminator

We aren't very big on WYSIWYG, just FYI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To tell the truth azezal, I am looking for about all I can get.

and yes, I am fairly certain we are playing by the rules. I don't have the newest main rule book, but we always played by the rules of the last one (we both practically memorized them), and he hasn't really given me much reason to doubt him now.

I will have to try some lash deamon princes, but what is the proper usage of them? Princes with wings, as a general rule do they lash things and then assault, or just fly around and lash things? What should I take to complement them in a 1000pt game?

How do you put most of your infantry in rhinos if you only have one?

Anyway - I'm no expert in CSM but I should say that if you get a second unit of Berserkers, field both and let them teararse through his gunline it should make things much easier. IG aren't exactly known for their close-combat skills.

More rhinos, more terminators and maybe a Defiler too. I'm sorry that my only suggestion is to buy more models, but I think your options are hurting you.

I don't play chaos, so I'm not a great authority on chaos lists and tactics, but I do play guard and I can tell you what gives me trouble.

I would hazard a guess that his armour is doing most of the damage and really smashing up your infantry. If this is the case, you need to get some deep striking melta action. Termicide is a good option - 3 terminators with combi meltas that deep strike next or behind to his best armour and (hopefully) blow it sky high. Sadly you only have 1 terminator. I would suggest buying a terminator box (I think you get 5 in the box) which combined with the one you already have will let you field two 3-man squads. Since you WYSIWYG isn't a problem you can happily arm them all with combi-meltas and this should give him something to think about it.

Obliterators will also work but they are more expensive than terminators, which sucks because the melta mission is generally a one-way ticket. Still, you could proxy your one terminator as a second obliterator to try the tactic out without forking over any cash.

He can counter this by deploying infantry all around his armour, making it tough for you to deep strike within prime melta range (6"), but at least you will be forcing his actions and thus taking the initiative. Perhaps his infantry will have to take up crummy positions in order to guard the armour, reducing the amout of fire you take going in, or they might have to deploy out of cover, which will make them fodder for your havocs.

If you run the thousand sons vs him, kick them to the curb. They are pretty crummy overall, especially against guard as the one thing they have going for them is ap3 bolters which you don't need vs flak armour. Ditch the possessed as well and try running only plague marines, berzerkers and standard csm against him.

I play against two MEQ friends regularly. One of them plays CSM and always has a stack of melta and a plan of how to deal with my armour. He wins as often as I do. My other friend plays vanilla marines, does not run a stack of melta, and never has a plan to deal with my armour. He never beats me.

It's sad but true that in 99% of situations the only way to reliably kill heavy armour is to get really close and hit it either with a melta gun at short range or in melee. Lascannons just don't cut it any more, unless you can ring a buttload of them. If you can take out the heavy armour you can generally carry the day.

Another thing is do not deploy across a wide front. My CSM mate pretty much picks one half of the table and put all his stuff there (barring any ranged unit like havocs, who get the best fire position possible). He goes hell for leather towards one part of my line and smashes it with with everything he has. No time for pussy footing - just hoon straight at him, pop smoke and hope for the best. You will reach his line and you will cause some damage. My SM mate on the other hand tends to try and deploy evenly across the length of the table, which means he doesn't have enough force in any one location to mount a successful attack. When one of his attacking units gets destroyed, the guys in that area can lend fire support to their mates further down the line.

Having said this, you don't want to just headbutt him where he is strongest. Try to pick the weakest flank, hit it with a big old fist of power armour and then roll him up. And don't forget the even the most humble of your units can take out his mightiest tank if it can get into melee with it.

I would try:
biker squad- give em stuff to deal with tanks and do a flank run with them
termicide squad(s) or deep-striking oblits to deal with the tanks
havocs to deal with chimeras and infantry
berzerkers in rhino
plagues in rhino with flamers/meltas
csm in rhinos with flamers, meltas and power fist on the sarg
icon up some of the infantry squads so your deep strikers are more accurate.

Pick a weak point, deploy everything except the havocs there, and go for the throat. Put the havocs wherever they can get the best lines of fire to his command chimeras and try to use them to take his command squad down.

Like old mate before me said, lash princes work great too, especially if he blobs his infantry. Lash them and then flame or charge them (preferably both). Lash them off his tanks if he uses them to guard, so that your melta units can get a clear shot.

If you can melta his tanks up and overwhelm part of his line with marines you should be well on your way to victory.

Ok....You dont have a HQ, this is a problem....Get a deamon prince, maybe two. Give them wings, MoS and Lash.
Get at least 2 more obliterators to fill out the squad, possibly another full squad too (I cope alot of the time with just one, but two would be handy).
I'd take another squad of bezerkers, give the skull champ a PF. Get all you can into rhino's. If you cant do that, just give your normal CSM's a champ with PF, sprinkle in some meltagun's throughout your troops.
I'd advise against using your 1k sons, possessed marines and dred.

I suggest:
2 Lash princes, 2 full oblit squads and as many CSM's or Bezerkers in rhino's as you can afford. Maybe a squad of Plague marines. small squad of deep striking Terminators with melta's to get behind LLRBT's and you shouldnt struggle.

Good luck man! dont let chaos down

(PS. nice pic )

Slarg232 wrote:
To tell the truth azezal, I am looking for about all I can get.

and yes, I am fairly certain we are playing by the rules. I don't have the newest main rule book, but we always played by the rules of the last one (we both practically memorized them), and he hasn't really given me much reason to doubt him now.

I will have to try some lash deamon princes, but what is the proper usage of them? Princes with wings, as a general rule do they lash things and then assault, or just fly around and lash things? What should I take to complement them in a 1000pt game?

My mate's wingaling prince scares the hell out of me, but he doesn't use the Lash. Unless CSM have some rules I don't know - a winged prince should be able to deep-strike and monster through your brother's infantry or armour (depending on build).

'Termicide' - that is, Deep-Striking Terminators that are not expected to survive can be brutal. Last time I faced CSM (Sisters+Grey Knights vs CSM) a squad of Terminators with combi-meltas were able to execute a perfect deep-strike and slag two Grey Knight Land Raiders. I shot them to peices with my Rending bolters one round later - but of course, by then their job was done. 500+ points of Land Raiders, gone in two turns for whatever 5 terminators cost (Less than 500 points, methinks). I think that that squad won the game for chaos.

My Opponant had some bit of wargear (Icon of Chaos maybe? Can't recal.) that makes Deep Striking more accurate within 6". Get one of those and let the skies rain with Chaos Marines.

Customarilly, the Lash has two uses.

1) Your zerkers charge some poor bastard, getting their extra attacks. Next round, the survivors are moved out of combat so the zerkers can charge again, getting yet more extra attacks.

2) You clump an enemy squad nice and close together so they can all fit under a blast or flamer template.

If your brother uses infantry to screen his tanks (and he should) You can Lash 'em out of the way.

@Azezel:
No, you can lash stuff engaged in combat.
___________

Guys, just going with Double Lash doesn't mean the list is gonna win.

You gotta get the rules straight and then you have to apply them when it's best, not when it's available...relying on it is a sure way to not doing very well.

As for the suggestions of strengthening the troops, I'm all for that.

Your biggest problem is the severe lack of transports. You have 1 rhino, of course that's not going to make it over the field. It is one easy target for your opponent. Footslogging CSM die in droves to ordnance, and when you get too close, he can drive away. You need transports much more than you need deamon princes, while they are nice too, they are not VITAL. Transports or at least a fast way to get where you need to be (which for chaos = transports) is vital

I think OP needs to gets hands on that rulebook and give it some serious reading rather than letting his bro tell him how the rules work.

OP, can you do a battle report of your next battle for us? (including a pic of the terrain setup)

I'd get some more transports a HQ(much needed though you could use the termie as a lord) and then get in his face and combat/melta the tanks to death. His infantry are then basically wheat before a scythe. What does he use the Kasrkins as (AP 3 guns or not).

He has nothing much to really effectively take down the PM (need S10, AP1-2 or Power weapons for guard) so if a squad has to footslog do either these or the TS. If the PM are transported then make sure they ave meltas or flamers.

As said in combat you'll own him so make sure you multi charge to rout as many enemy units as is physically possible.

Okay first of all in 1000points its not apocolypse so he can't use that baneblade. After that take the suggestions from dakka they are correct. I recently played a 3000 point game against a pair of CSM players with me IG and another IG player. Last turn both their terminator squads came in wiped out my units on our objectives and won the game. They can win the game and take alot of fire. They will be able to deal with his leman russ's. Also put up like scott-S6 suggested a battle report with pictures and we will be able to help you more.

Slarg232 wrote:USUALLY runs, in a 1000pt game, two command squads, a Leman, either a Devil Dog or another Leman, 10 Kasrkins, and the rest is infantry.

FOUL!

So, before you add "the rest is infantry", he's already spending over 700 points. This means that the infantry he's taking is going to be two minimized platoons with only a few weapons. If he is taking more than this, then he's playing with more than 1000 points, possibly substantially more. Nothing bothers me more than a player who cheats by going overpoints, especially by a few hundred points. Cheating by not knowing the rules is one thing, but putting together a legal 1000 point list is simple arithmetic.

That or the rest of his infantry is, in fact, a few worthless platoons, in which case all you have to do is blow up 2 tanks and he loses every game.

As such, I would ask to go over his list with his codex (not right before the game, but some other time), to make sure it's exactly on-point. Even if it is, you at least get to learn more about his army.

But assuming that everything is, in fact, in order, then your biggest problem is, undoubtedly, handling all of the firepower he's bringing. There are basically two solutions. The first is to reduce his ability to damage your troops too badly before you reach his lines, and the second is to neutralize his firepower before he's able to damage your troops too badly. The first means putting EVERYTHING in rhinos. The second means deepstriking and outflanking as much as you can possibly make deepstrike or outflank. Of course, the best solution is probably to do both.

Remember that guard are good at long range shooting, if you play in such a way where you go muzzle to muzzle over the field, you will be destroyed every time (so no taking obliterators and parking them in your deployment zone and hoping for the best), and if you slowly march across the field out of cover straight at his tanks, you're likewise going to get chewed to pieces.

If you're getting tabled every time that means that you're not doing enough to keep your troops alive and/or that you're not doing enough to silence his firepower fast enough. Start from here.

That and seriously, I know it's 90 pages, but reread the rulebook, and take notes. I've seen some very sad things happen when noobs play each other, and that noobishness can endure for years without a careful reading of the rulebook or spending time playing with a wider group of players.

My roommate fields three full units of Deepstriking Terminators with Claws or Chainfists, three Defilers with Battle Cannons, and two minimum units of Space Marines. I haven't figured out how to beat that yet.

My biggest suggestion, however, is as most people have said; sounds to me like you guys aren't 100% on the rules. Your brother, for instance, can definitely not field that Baneblade, for one thing, and your army has no HQ unit. An understanding of the rules will actually help you understand the tactics necessary to win. Also, you may want to upgrade to 5th Edition, because then we could help you better.

I would guess that you don't play with much terrain either, since you are tabled by turn 3 each time. Little terrain = huge advantage for IG. There is a reason for the 25% terrain guidance in the rulebook.

You could try swapping armies a few times.

Frosty Hardtop wrote:My roommate fields three full units of Deepstriking Terminators with Claws or Chainfists, three Defilers with Battle Cannons, and two minimum units of Space Marines. I haven't figured out how to beat that yet.

Play either seize ground or capture and control missions. That kind of chaos list is only good if you're still playing victory points. The rest of the rules weren't build around VPs, so either use 4th ed rules, or 5th ed missions.

Illumini wrote:I would guess that you don't play with much terrain either, since you are tabled by turn 3 each time. Little terrain = huge advantage for IG. There is a reason for the 25% terrain guidance in the rulebook.

Oh, and this.

Perhaps you could take some pictures (or at least draw some accurate diagrams) and post it in a battle report? This would definitely help identify the problem.

Thanks for the advice all, going to respond to a few things:

First off, I do have an HQ, a regular Chaos Lord, I just forgot to add him on the list.

He usually deep strikes or outflanks his Kasrkins to blow up one or two units, but by then they are dead.

And no, I wasn't implying that he was using a Baneblade in his games, you guys asked me if I knew what he has so I put it on He also has a few basilisks, but he hardly ever fields them.

Ok, so I need to start trying things like Termicides, more berserkers, and a daemon prince. Would anyone be willing to write me up a 1000pt list that I could study, maybe I am building my units wrong, too.

And does anyone know if IG can get heavy flamers on infantry? My brother had one the last game, and I didn't think anything of it, but that was before he outflanked me without telling me that was one of the rules in the game.

I hate to sound like a terrible player, we have another friend who plays SMurfs and I have only lost to him once, and he always beat my bro so it was kinda a rock paper scissors thing going on, but ever since the new IG codex came out, no ones beaten my brother....

Veterans can get one heavy flamer. I believe CCS and maybe PCS can get it too.

Only one squad of vets can outflank, and they need Harker do to so.

One platoon can also outflank, with Al'Rahem.

At 1000 pts, I've used something like this to good effect (it's been a while, so it may not be totally accurate):

Deamon Prince, wings
2x7 Plague marines, 2xmelta, powerfist
- rhinos
1x7 CSM, flamer, combi-flamer
- rhino
3x1 obliterators

It has lots of troops, decent amount of armour and can handle most stuff. Plague marines can be though to deal with at this pts level.

It was the kasrkins that outflanked, sorry, I shouldve posted that originally.

Thanks for the list, I'll use it next time, and make a full battle report. I see that I am going to have to buy more of the God's troops, which sucks because the only one I really enjoy painting is Nurgles, and I forgot the colors I used for them

Well, the next time I am going to see my brother is when I graduate next weekend, so It's probably going to take that long until the battle, which will hopefully go my way for once. He's on a high horse, and I'm damn well going to knock him off it...

The main rulebook you use, is it black and red on the front or lback and grey? If it's black and grey you really need to upgrade to the newer rulebook if you are all using the new codexes.

The one I had (which I seem to have misplaced somehow when I showed a friend of mine at school, but thats a topic for another day) was black and grey, the one my brother has is the black and red one.

Okay, it sounds like your brother has the 5th edition rulebook and you have the 4th edition rulebook.

Also, regarding Sanctjud's comment:

Sanctjud wrote:@Azezel:
No, you can lash stuff engaged in combat.

No, you cannot use the Lash of Submission to move units out of combat. That was probably a typo on Sanctjud's part.

Nurglitch wrote:Okay, it sounds like your brother has the 5th edition rulebook and you have the 4th edition rulebook.

Yessir, but we both play with the 5th's rules, and due to money/distance restraints, I can't walk down the block to buy one, so I can not read the rules on it.

Is your brother coming home for the summer from school? Would you be allowed to borrow it? Because if you haven't won even one game that could be a huge reason for it.

Yeah if you want to have some fun you can take plague marines for your majority of troops, get them in a rhino, daemon prince with wings with either mark of nurgle and maybe warptime or make of tzeench and what ever you feel like.

Both marks have their own upsides because one makes the daemon prince harder to wound and the other easier to save (+t vs +invuln save) Obliterators will help you with armor or you could take some dakka preds and stick them in the corner and try to rip through some troop transports or side armor if you can.

Ratbarf wrote:Is your brother coming home for the summer from school? Would you be allowed to borrow it? Because if you haven't won even one game that could be a huge reason for it.

nah, I never beat my brother even before, when we both practically memorized the 4th book. And no, he lives by himself, so he won't be coming home for school, just the weekend of graduation.

Heres a list I might use in a 1000 point game:
1 Daemon Prince- Wings, Nurgle, Warptime 175
3 Terminators- combi meltas 105
10 CSM-CHamp PF, 1 melta, 1 flamer 205
10 CSm- Champ PF, 1 melta, 1 flamer, Chaos Glory 215
2 Rhinos 70
3 Obliterators in seperate squads 225
Total: 995

This leaves you an extra 5 points to play around with. This sort of list usually works fairly well for me, although has yet to try the guard, but it should fare well. Feel free to critique it if you feel something is missing.

Remember, you don't NEED zerkers to crush your brother's infantry in CC, all CSM have a CC weapon and a bolt pistol to get an extra attack, and if the group has a flamer for before assaulting, even better.