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I have 2 of the damned codex

I just don't understand the different points and different abilities of same named wargear.

Epic Fail

Heh, if GW went with the 'all in one' codex, dont you think all the DA/BA players would be pissed for them killing all their beloved special characters? Look at what happened when they killed off the legion rules in C:CSM!

What I think is funny, is the fact that, when you mail your codices in, and if they decide to make changes, allowing new sm units in a DA army, you have to buy a new DA codex, costing you another £12. now £15 with the price changes. seems like a good idea from GW. "If every DA player who wants new stuff sends in their codices, we'll give them a reason to buy a brand new one..."

I agree with Yakface.... seeing they decided to emphasize characters instead of chapters, they could have attached Death Company to Lemartes and Belial to Deathwing.

Compare for a moment the previous Dark Angels - Troops were stubborn, DW&RW were fearless. Oh and for a time, per fluff as the 1st chapter, they had supposed advantages in being outfitted with Heavy Plasma as an option in tacticals. The Ravenwing had fluffy 6+ invulnerables or expert riders.

New codex, you are standard marines. You scouts are unplayable because they are stuffed into elites and they lose out to all the other options. You lost stubborn. You have to field 5 or 10 man squads. You had a discount on basic rhinos and razorbacks compared to other marines. Nothing wild but the discounts meant you were at least still competitive versus other marines. Cool model for Samiel but sorry he is a dead 205 points with either option.

Then comes the NEW SM Codex. You have no access to combat tactics (but you lost your stubborn...) Your razorbacks have less options and are overpriced in comparison. Your drop pods are overpriced now. Your bikes, speeders and assault marines are overpriced in comparison. What are your offsets?
1. Librarians with less powers but who have old style psychic hoods and 3 wounds.
2. Interrogator chaplains with 3 wounds.
3. If you field a 5-man tactical, you can buy a special weapon.

Let me fall over with joy.

They have succeeded in killing that chapter. The only unique part of DA is the Deathwing and as stated they have old-fashioned storm shields and cyclone missile launchers.


BA? Well, they cleaned up Death Company and nerfed the 6 dreadnoughts. Cool concept of assault marines as a troop choice. Lost blood rage but also lost furious charge on all but DC.

They, as DA are now overpriced in comparison and less flexible in what they do have. Another chapter on the verge of oblivion.

I think they should be shot, I at one point owned 4 marine armies. Why? I liked each of them for their special rules and feel. What should everyone do now? Buy 6 special characters, let your wife or girlfriend pick their favorite color and paint your army that color.
You like green? Cool Salamanders led by Shrike. You like yellow? Why not paint imperial fists lead by Tigurius. They are making marines one big grey mass. (As in boring...)

My DA may turn into generic marines, my Salamanders MAY get played just for fun and I am going to finish off my BA and probably sell them. The SW are long gone as I tired of waiting for a codex.

Also look for the next Codex assigned to Matthew Ward, he has shown skill at unbalancing the whole codex universe so wait for his next attempt. I hold high hopes that he will nerf us again. Hope he gets the IG codex and has about 50 special characters that give guardsmen a bunch of idiotic options...

I actually wouldn't have minded the codexs being rolled into one, with the exception of Wolves and Templars for they are really divergent.

But the others? My DA would be cool as long as we got to keep all of our special characters, and our special units. Though you can ditch the Company veterans because we didn't used to have them and they were just test Sternguard anyways.

Which all goes to show why I think WAAC and tournament players should try a different game. The rest of us basement-friendly-gamer types can then be left to enjoy our hobby in peace...

If the previous events were something to go by I would guess that JJ or another member of the Dev team would be there in person.

Give it right back to them personally, though be professional about it. And take pictures.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:If the previous events were something to go by I would guess that JJ or another member of the Dev team would be there in person.

Give it right back to them personally, though be professional about it. And take pictures.

Just think of the embarrassment this would cause if done publically at a GW sponsored event.

I cringe just thinking about it

I think Deathwing with small contingent of Ravenwing is viable but other than that I have no interest what so ever in playing DA now.

G

Wouldn't it just be easier if they had one codex for chapters that follow Codex Astarters (which they already did) and another one for non-CA chapters? Oh, no...having everyone pay £15 for a useless DA codex, near-useless BT codex, a non-existent codex for SW, a pseudo-codex for BA and a small bunch of angry players is better than releasing a brand new 4-chapter codex for £18 that a LOT of people would buy.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:If the previous events were something to go by I would guess that JJ or another member of the Dev team would be there in person.

Give it right back to them personally, though be professional about it. And take pictures.

Just think of the embarrassment this would cause if done publically at a GW sponsored event.

I cringe just thinking about it

Or more likely, they'd laugh it off, apologize that you didn't like it, say you couldn't get a refund, then maybe take it back and have a stack of free DA Codecii for whomever wanted one.

Deadshane1 wrote: "This codex and fans of it feel that the Space Marine Codex makes it unuseable in any form of competetive play. I've collected these codeii from players at a competition, The Baltimore GT, the competetive players there find no use whatsoever for this book.

2007/08 Heat 3: Dark Angels - 2nd/150

2008/09 Heat 1: Dark Angels - 10th/133

Next time play better...

Where they playing Greenwing? Thats the real issue here. We already know our bikes and termies are hot.

So the problem isn't that the DA aren't competitive, because they are. It's just that they require some skill and tactics?

Oh, noes!

torgoch wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote: "This codex and fans of it feel that the Space Marine Codex makes it unuseable in any form of competetive play. I've collected these codeii from players at a competition, The Baltimore GT, the competetive players there find no use whatsoever for this book.

2007/08 Heat 3: Dark Angels - 2nd/150

2008/09 Heat 1: Dark Angels - 10th/133

Next time play better...

Huh.

Fascinating.

So why the perception? Or was there something different about the UK heats (this is UK we're talking about? Or am I really screwed up here) that was different from how we play in the colonies?

The Dark Angel Codex is NOT competetive. That isnt to say some really good players out there suck and cannot place well.

I've currently got a record of 11 wins and 1 loss in tournements with my DA, that isnt the issue.

The issue is anything DA can do, Marines do better...with the exact same equiptment....and TONS more options and new toys to boot.

As I initially said in my first post. You think DA are fine? More power to you, I commend you for sticking with it. There are those of us DA players that ARE angry and feel shafted by the new marine dex. Those are the people I'm addressing. I fail to see whats so difficult to understand about that. Everyone knows how great you all are by being able to "compete" with the codex as it is....will you please leave now?

Deadshane1 wrote:The Dark Angel Codex is NOT competetive. That isnt to say some really good players out there suck and cannot place well.

I've currently got a record of 11 wins and 1 loss in tournements with my DA, that isnt the issue.

The issue is anything DA can do, Marines do better...with the exact same equiptment....and TONS more options and new toys to boot.

As I initially said in my first post. You think DA are fine? More power to you, I commend you for sticking with it. There are those of us DA players that ARE angry and feel shafted by the new marine dex. Those are the people I'm addressing. I fail to see whats so difficult to understand about that. Everyone knows how great you all are by being able to "compete" with the codex as it is....will you please leave now?

thats quit an argument you have on your hands. on one side, their competative in tournament play. On the other if your just bsing their's no saying that you can't just have the same equipment for the same price amungst your friends. On top of that you can just talk to the FLGS about a local faq to fix the thing. GW made their choice, I hope this helps but good luck. honestly I'm afraid that with gw's nerf policy that soon every space marine army will become the same.

and btw your picture scares the gak out of me.

Deadshane1 wrote:As I initially said in my first post. You think DA are fine? More power to you, I commend you for sticking with it. There are those of us DA players that ARE angry and feel shafted by the new marine dex. Those are the people I'm addressing. I fail to see whats so difficult to understand about that. Everyone knows how great you all are by being able to "compete" with the codex as it is....will you please leave now?

Is it honestly any different than you going into almost every thread with anything to do with Dark Angels and either QQing about the Codex or making snide remarks about how people only need a "decent" FAQ or a new Codex to be able to play their army?

@deadshane: so what, exactly is your argument?

"I don't have any playing skill, so I need better crutches in my Codex"

"I win a lot, so I don't need a new Codex"

"I need options for shiny stuff for the sake of having more options"

"I play Dark Angels, but don't really want to play with any Dark Angels restrictions or limitations"

Seriously, what is it?


If the Codex isn't competitive, then you would be barely running .500 and other guys wouldn't be able to pilot the Codex to Top 10 finishes in large tournament events. So the fact is, the DA Codex, by definition, must be competitive in tournament play. If it weren't competitive, you wouldn't have a .900+ record, but you do.

If the marines really can do "anything better with tons of options", I'd like to see how they manage to field Terminators in Drop Pods. Oh, wait, maybe they can't do that...

And finally, as a (currently) BA player, if you feel shafted, what about us? You got a new Codex, after you got a Codex "update". You got new models. You got a plastic veterans / bitz sprue. I hate to tell you, but that's pretty damn good support for an army that "got shafted".

OTOH, BA got a WD article that predates the new SM Codex, NO 4th Edition Codex update, NO new models, NO new bitz, NO new plastics. So yeah, clearly it's the *DA* who got shafted by comparison. :S

The DA have been the weakest SM chapter for the last two editions.

GW has really dropped the ball and there is no way for them not to understand that - except - we already bought the codex with the promise that was the way all SM chapters would look in the soon to be released 5th edition.

Then the BA codex is released because someone gets a wild hair. Again, huge nerf bat wielding but somewhat accepted because this is just the way it's going to be in the soon to be released 5th ed.

Then 5th ed comes out. A lot of the changes and weird wargear starts to make sense. The surprise comes when the SMs get a shiny new codex that completely trumps the BAs and DAs so basically GW has given us the ..!.. but they don't care because we already bought the codices and the figs.

Why does a RB w/ twin las cost the BA's 80 pts and the regular SM's 75 pts? The even dumber question is why is the only chapter in the galaxy capable of mounting twin assault cannons on a rhino chassis incapable of putting one on a razorback?

Being someone who has designed games for a small game company, and play tested many other games in the past, I can truthfully and whole heartedly say that there is NO excuse to not come close in the way of game balance within 50 codexes if need be. It simply takes an organized logical approach with a singlular design philosophy and goals. GW does not opperate this way. Believe me, there is no voodoo or magic needed to create game balance. It takes smart talented designers that are lead by a principle designer operating in a streamlined straight forward approach for play testing and marketing. This is very possible. And the reason threads like this begin to frusterate me is because people on the end of making excuses for GW's lack of all the qualities I just stated think that its impossible to create a game with very tight harmony. It won't be perfect, there will be some loopholes and bugs, but it won't be broken to the degree it is now.




Oooh, look... Mog make fire with sticks. He is god. Bow to Mog. Me not know how he do it. It magic. He Magic Mog.

Something else that doesn't take voodoo is copying and pasting a razorback entry from one document to the next.

I kinda like my Dark Angel Codex. It, along with the 'Chaos' Codex are good motivators to keep writing the Warhammer 40,000 Revisited Project. Those two books make me feel better about myself, and show me again and again why five years of writing and playtesting have been worth it.

Plus it has pretty pictures.

BYE

To be fair, I just don't see much of the point.

Just use your DA as Codex Marines. Hell, do you really even have to re-paint them? I would just show up to tournaments and say "I'm using Codex SM Rules".

It's one of the nice things about playing a SM army - you can use just about any set of rules if you build it just right.

Osbad wrote:Which all goes to show why I think WAAC and tournament players should try a different game. The rest of us basement-friendly-gamer types can then be left to enjoy our hobby in peace...

How is it you can put something so eloquently when I feel the need to rant?

Damn you old timer, you and your wisdoms!

But I totally agree. If this isn't to your taste, find a different manufacturer.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Osbad wrote:Which all goes to show why I think WAAC and tournament players should try a different game. The rest of us basement-friendly-gamer types can then be left to enjoy our hobby in peace...

How is it you can put something so eloquently when I feel the need to rant?

Damn you old timer, you and your wisdoms!

But I totally agree. If this isn't to your taste, find a different manufacturer.

My main problem is that many people I still hang out with like to play in Warhammer GT's. And so I begin my decent into building a Daemon army for WHFB (sadly, Daemons suck in the 41st millennium).

Otherwise I'd be completely switched over to Warmachine and all my GW stuff would be on eBay (instead of only part of it).

I love it how in the past week and a bit (while I've been away actually... odd) tournament players are now equated to people that must win at all costs, and that people who don't play in tournaments 'just want to have fun'.

I'm sorry, but that's bullsh!t. And it has to stop.

Show me a tournament player that doesn't want to have fun?

Show me a 'fun' player (whatever the feth that is) who doesn't want to win?

I'm utterly sick and tired of this myth that 'fun' and 'tournaments' are somehow mutually exclusive and that 'win and all costs' and 'powergaming' are synonymous with people who play in tournaments. TFG exists everywhere from Grand Tournaments, to local ponds. Casual gamers exist everywhere from Grand Tournaments to local ponds. Each extreme exists in each venue.

Grotsnik - You, my friend, are as guilty here as anyone else for perpetuating that myth. In a recent post you said something along the lines if 'Screw tournament players! I just want to have fun!' I'm sorry - what the hell does that actually mean??? What do those two statements of yours have to do with one another? Why does playing at a tournament preclude you from having fun? Why does wanting to have fun preclude you from participating in a tournament? Why are these things considered mutually exclusive?

Do we have people going "Screw those guys who paint - they think they're better than everyone - I just want to play and all painters can get lost" or "I hate playing - playing is just for people who want to win - I just want to paint." Of course we bloody don't. Now I don't paint, but I'm not attempting to browbeat or take some mythical damned moral highground over the fact that I enjoy one aspect of the hobby over another.

And it seems that "Oh you just want to win" has become a get-out-of-jail-free card for the more vocal (and vacant) members of the Apologetic Coven in recent days. Someone doesn't like a rule that you really like? Don't have a rational argument with which to rebut them? That's fine! Just call 'em a dirty min/maxing power gamer who just wants a different rule so they can win more, paint yourself in a saintly 'casual gamer' light while you're at it, and you get an instant win.


This is crazy.

BYE

P.S. And if 'WAAC' gets entered into the glossary of terms, I might just have to learn me some code and bring these boards down...

H.B.M.C. wrote:I love it how in the past week and a bit (while I've been away actually... odd) tournament players are now equated to people that must win at all costs, and that people who don't play in tournaments 'just want to have fun'.

I'm sorry, but that's bullsh!t. And it has to stop.

Show me a tournament player that doesn't want to have fun?

Show me a 'fun' player (whatever the feth that is) who doesn't want to win?

I'm utterly sick and tired of this myth that 'fun' and 'tournaments' are somehow mutually exclusive and that 'win and all costs' and 'powergaming' are synonymous with people who play in tournaments. TFG exists everywhere from Grand Tournaments, to local ponds. Casual gamers exist everywhere from Grand Tournaments to local ponds. Each extreme exists in each venue.

Grotsnik - You, my friend, are as guilty here as anyone else for perpetuating that myth. In a recent post you said something along the lines if 'Screw tournament players! I just want to have fun!' I'm sorry - what the hell does that actually mean??? What do those two statements of yours have to do with one another? Why does playing at a tournament preclude you from having fun? Why does wanting to have fun preclude you from participating in a tournament? Why are these things considered mutually exclusive?

Do we have people going "Screw those guys who paint - they think they're better than everyone - I just want to play and all painters can get lost" or "I hate playing - playing is just for people who want to win - I just want to paint." Of course we bloody don't. Now I don't paint, but I'm not attempting to browbeat or take some mythical damned moral highground over the fact that I enjoy one aspect of the hobby over another.

And it seems that "Oh you just want to win" has become a get-out-of-jail-free card for the more vocal (and vacant) members of the Apologetic Coven in recent days. Someone doesn't like a rule that you really like? Don't have a rational argument with which to rebut them? That's fine! Just call 'em a dirty min/maxing power gamer who just wants a different rule so they can win more, paint yourself in a saintly 'casual gamer' light while you're at it, and you get an instant win.


This is crazy.

BYE

P.S. And if 'WAAC' gets entered into the glossary of terms, I might just have to learn me some code and bring these boards down...

This is far too much to put in a sig isnt it?

Summarise it to this:

HBMC - He's right. You're wrong. Deal with it.


Oooh... I think I just became Stelek. *shudder*



BYE

The difference is, of course I would like to win, and I certainly attempt to do so during the game, but if I lose, it just means there is more at stake in the next game.

For example, Gummers Game of Epic Fail.

2,000 points, Dark Elves (old book) v Orcs and Goblins (current book)

The only thing I lost was a single Cold One Chariot, which was my own fault as another one had fled from a charge (quite sensibly I though) and gone straight through it's mate, turning it into kindling in the process. Poor old Gummer, at the end, was left with just 8 Gobbos surrounded by two Chariots, a Dragon, a Manticore, and a unit of Dark Riders....

This was fun because of his ludicrously bad luck. If I gambled, it worked. If he gambled, it failed, and spectacularly so.

But most of my games are close run things. I don't feel the need to massacre my opponent to claim a win. I'll take a narrow victory, or even a draw. This means I am not well suited to Tournament play at all, as I am simply paying some money to come in the middle or lower echelons of ranking. I can stay at home and do that for free.

I like to make sure my opponent has as much fun as I do. Hence my Savage Orc army o'doom, which is very nearly there (just one more block to buy, and I can field them!). Clearly, this army is not going to win all that often. Of all the possible armies out there, it's pretty much the least reliable. Sure, I never really have to worry about Panic, Fear or Terror, but then, I have little to no say in what my lads go after, provided of course the stubborn little buggers decide fighting the enemy is preferable to fighting each other. But do I care? Nope. I haven't spent almost £250 on this force to get easy wins. It's as much a challenge for me as it is my opponent.

Sure, I could have gone for a Dwarven Gunline in an attempt to bore my opponent into submission, but I didn't. I went for an army they are unlikely to have faced off against before.

THIS is where I find my fun. Unique, interesting lists which would never stand up in a Tournament. And if I came up against an opponent who didn't like a rule I didn't like, I dare say, what with both of us not liking it, we'd ignore it.

I consider myself a Hobbyist first, and a player second. Yes, I tend to get pretty damned good with my armies eventually, knowing them inside out in a way, that thanks to the unique builds that attract me, my opponent is unlikely to find. I even go so far as to convert things appropriately (Savage Orc Warboss tied to the underside of his Wyvern, the reasoning being it stops him getting all over excited and jumping off) and then use them so. I have kitted this guy out to hurt the opponent as much as possible in a very direct, bloodyminded fashion. To this end, he has Shagga's Screamin' Sword, Collar of Zorga, and Iron Gnashas. I intend for this very special psycho to be squarely aimed at my opponents strongest character, and then let loose. Theoretically, I have more than enough attack to stomp even the most stubborn character into the dirt.

I don't get the Tournament mentality of wanting to place well and get a bit of paper to prove it. I'd rather just get some mates together an organise a weekend of geek debauchery. Seriously, once everything is together, I'm talking Warhammer, Magic, Dr Who (on VHS) and lots of beer.

Warhammer to me is a social game, just like Magic. And I know if I go to a Tournament, I risk coming up against someone who doesn't get my mind set, and I'm going to have a wasted game as his mathammered snoozefest stomps me into the dust. Sure, it means he's a better player than I, as he has used his list to the best of it's ability, but thats just not my bag, and never will be.

However, I will not inflict my style of gaming on the Tournament crowd. Each to their own. But sadly, that does not stop them coming into store demanding mind numbing 'practice' games against non-Tourny players.

I guess you could say I consider the whole shebang something of an art form. The players who indulge in Tournaments might have good taste in this Art, but rarely do they produce their own, instead just buying prints (finding online advice) and then putting it up. But me? I am an adventurer in Army List Design. My hobby means enough to me that I want to stretch myself and it's boundaries to see what is truly out there. Like any number of artists, I may not have the success that other past masters have achieved, but then, thats neither the point nor the goal of the exercise. What I want is a collection of unusual armies, comprised of otherwise rarely used units, and to know that I and I alone am capable of wielding said force to victory over any opponent. I embrace the learning curve that goes with it. Most of my favourite tricks and traps have come about during a game, when a new opportunity has revealed itself and my efforts to exploit it have worked. I do not use interestingly worded rules to baffle my opponent, my tactics achieve that.

Is also, to my mind, about respect. A Gamer is only as good as his opponents. (yes I know that applies to Tournaments, and I will touch on that in a second). As such, I see little to no point in using powerlists against my opponents in order to force a win as quickly as possible. If it's over in a heartbeat, my opponent doesn't stand to learn what I did or why it worked etc. Sure, in a Tournament, you aren't looking to teach your opponent that particular lesson, but then I'm simply not that ruthless. What I would rather do is gather a crowd of like minded gamers, and go together with them on a wargaming pilgrimage of improvement. We are rarely tied to a single build, as most of us have spare units knocking around. We like to eventually find the units and tactics that can trump our opponents over a period of time. This is what keeps things fresh for us. In my circle, it is rare indeed that nobody is assembling a new force, be it a rehashed existing army or a brand new, from scratch attempt.

In short, although Tournaments have their place, I do not see them as a valuable part of the Hobby. At least, not in the present format. If it was just a Games Meet, where various players could assemble to meet new opponents, without Prizes tempting some over to the dark side, then awesome, I'd be up for that. But I dread meeting a player who takes it all too seriously.

HBMC puts it well.

I play in tournaments. Most of my "friendly games" are with a group of guys who also focus on tournaments.

Our main method of enjoyment from the hobby is playing the game very well, not making mistakes.

We do not however cheat, bend the rules, and are probably the most forgiving group of guys in terms of "things being really close" measuring wise and then giving it to the other player for a benefit of the doubt.

I'm happy to say that I'm the same group as Negativemoney. Lemme tell you about this guy, he's got a Slaanesh "anti-Leadership" Daemon list that uses the Masque, the -2LD Banner, and a ton of Slaanesh magic. Nasty army that he plays exceptionally well.

He got the Best Sportsman award at the Chicago GT. He didn't get that because he found a way to make the LD Banner work on people in real life, he got it because he's a hell of a person to play against and is a really nice guy. I like to use him as an example because he proves the point that you can be a good player, with a nasty army, and still be a joy to play against.

I go to tournies and get max or near max Sports. I take pride in that even when playing a hard list, I still give people an enjoyable game. My opponents and I have a good game, even though we are trying our best to beat the crap out of the other guy.

I really don't see what's wrong with wanting a balanced, tight ruleset, with rules support. Privateer Press manages it just fine and they have, IMO, a better game for it. If it wasn't for the fact that so many of my friends locally were into GW games, then I wouldn't be playing.

Right now GW's lax development process and blatant lack of testing have led to both of their games being pretty flawed and not a lot of fun if you're going to play them competitively. Thanks to them, I get to shelve my Ogres and play Daemons if I want to go to a WHFB GT and have a semblance of a chance.