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SW's developed the annihilator turret. I would be shocked! shocked! (There's gambling here? I'm shocked!) if they lose predators. I doubt they'd lose vindicators or whirlwinds either.

CSM get a defiler, maybe there's less resistance at GW to just giving SW all the Leman Russ tank variants. In third edition, I believe the thinking was giving marines a battlecannon was too powerful.

Could always let them take the Leman Russ Annihilator... or does that make the Predator redundant?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Polonius wrote:Was there are a more unnecessary new codex than templars? How many mechanized, good in combat, large squad loving, codex astartes ignoring chapters do we really need?

BT's were popular because of their Armageddon list. It was a powerful list that a lot of people liked. Problem is when they made the actual BT Codex, they toned them down quite a bit, making them not as powerful, and therefore not as popular, therefore Graham McNeil stopped writing Codices.

BYE

Oh boy, was the BT list good. I mean, you can tell the popularity was mostly (although certianly not entirely) due to performance on the table because you still see far more Dark Angel armies at tournaments (with a pants list) than you do Black Templars (with a list that's in no way bad).

I would take deathwing over current non land raider cheesefest templars any day. Without seven land raiders the templars just aren't that good, whereas deathwing despite all the downtalk can do very very well in certain matches. They are just more of a rock paper scissors army then most. I also personally know more Black Templar players then Dark Angel players. I personally think it comes down too how many people were starting armies around armageddon versus how many were starting them when the last two Dark Angel codexes were released. A newer codex is going to have a fresher following.

Alpharius wrote:I am looking forward to having a truly NON-CODEX chapter to build from...

FYI, *Chaos* Marines aren't Codex...
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dienekes96 wrote:No Sternguard or Rearguard, just flavors of Wolf Guard.

No Combat Squads...that is a Codex thing.

Time will tell, but I do look forward to a new SW model range and art.

I think Wolf Guard, Wulfen, and 13th Co would be the Elites.

I can see Grey Hunters having Combat Squads - after all, BA & DA are also non-Codex, and they still have them.

SW are still basically SM with new bitz, so the model range can't be that different. I think you'll get more bitz, with more chests, heads, pelts, pads, rhino doors, etc. in plastic.
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Polonius wrote:I'm imagining Wolves will be pretty standalone, with few of the rules from the basic SM book. I can see them keeping ATSKNF, but everything else will be homegrown.

Theses guys are more unorthodox than even the Templars. Of course, the existence of Templars is the real wrench in the works. Was there are a more unnecessary new codex than templars?

I generally agree, although I would expect many of the newer Loyalist themes to carry through (but in a more limited way). After all, they need to be more Loyalist than Chaos.

GW needs a clear differentiation between Templars and Wolves vs. MoK Chaos. Templars were only necessary because of 3E making them the cover boys and Armageddon making them uber. From a visual standpoint, I have to say that I'm happier with Templars than any of the other flavors. They're the most iconic Warrior-Knights of 40k, and have the best bitz hands down. Along with a striking (and easy) paint scheme. So of course, they're keepers! It's not like GW pushed something lame like Rainbow Warriors or Imperial Fists.
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Ozymandias wrote:I bet that Wolfen will be elites with a chance to make them troops with a Special Character from the 13th Co.

Like the Dark Angels that they abhor?!?

____

aka_mythos wrote:It'll be curious to see what GW does about the inclusion of Leman Russ tanks; I think the Exterminator is gone,

Yup. Any guesses that it'll just be an upgunned Destructor with twin Autocannon?

dietrich wrote:SW's developed the annihilator turret. I would be shocked! shocked! (There's gambling here? I'm shocked!) if they lose predators. I doubt they'd lose vindicators or whirlwinds either.

CSM get a defiler, maybe there's less resistance at GW to just giving SW all the Leman Russ tank variants. In third edition, I believe the thinking was giving marines a battlecannon was too powerful.

I do believe that was their rationale. Silly GW.

With the exception of the Whirlwind, Leman Russ variants could make the other SM tanks redundant. Why field a vindicator when you can get a LR Demolisher?(yes I know there are advantages to each) I don't think all the SM tanks should necessarily go, but it would make for a cluttered part of the codex otherwise. Something should go to make room.

I don't see SW having Russes as a power balance issue, but as a theme / differention issue. Marines have Preds and Guard has Russes. It's not like the old days when GW couldn't make different models and armies had to share.

JohnHwangDD wrote:FYI, *Chaos* Marines aren't Codex...

Really? Could'a fooled me.

dienekes96 wrote:I can see Grey Hunters having Combat Squads - after all, BA & DA are also non-Codex, and they still have them.

Back in 2nd Ed they could divide into Combat Squads. I see no reason why Space Puppies wouldn't do it just because their Rebel Viking Space Marines.

JohnHwangDD wrote:SW are still basically SM with new bitz, so the model range can't be that different. I think you'll get more bitz, with more chests, heads, pelts, pads, rhino doors, etc. in plastic.

No. They're utterly alien in doctrine and organisation to regular Marines, even moreso than Templars. But we all know how much you love vanilla DD. And they won't do Rhino Doors again. Too expensive to make something that isn't worth it. parts to stick on LR/Rhino doors, yes, like with the Dark Angel stuff, but not whole doors again.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Like the Dark Angels that they abhor?!?

What's that got to do with anything? Special Characters altering your army is the way of the future John. Climb on board.

BYE

The SW could always get the Leman Russ tank variants in place of the two Land Raider variants. That would sit better with the SW fluff.

Grey Hunters are the only unit if any that combat squads could work for. That is unless GW want to throw balance out the window and allow 15-20 man squads to break down into 5 man squads or 10 man squads, that'd get messy.

I know in the past, GW has stated that Wolves wouldn't get combat squads.

aka_mythos wrote:The SW could always get the Leman Russ tank variants in place of the two Land Raider variants. That would sit better with the SW fluff.

I don't know, the crusader has been a nice option for transporting WG termies and large blood claws squads. Though I would be interested in trying out a battle cannon toting LR in my current lists. If it were just the exterminator pattern though, I would pass, as I was never much interested in a 180 point tank with a TL auto cannons.

aka_mythos wrote: Grey Hunters are the only unit if any that combat squads could work for. That is unless GW want to throw balance out the window and allow 15-20 man squads to break down into 5 man squads or 10 man squads, that'd get messy.

I wonder how they would break a GH squad down as currently you get up to 5 special weapons per squad (1 special gun, 2 plasma pistols, and 2 special cc weapons). Personally, I would prefer if they replaced the 2 plasma pistol options with a second special gun, seeing as the pistols no longer rapid fire. Then combat squading would make more sense as it would split up as 1 special gun and one CC weopon per 5 man.

I also wonder if they will automatically include the cost of a WG squad leader in a Blood Claw and Grey Hunter squad like they did with VS in vanilla tactical squads.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I am looking forward to having a truly NON-CODEX chapter to build from...

FYI, *Chaos* Marines aren't Codex...

OK, I am looking forward to a loyalist NON-CODEX chapter to build from.

And really, the latest CSM Codex is closer to 'codex' than just about any that have come before!

Yup.

wyomingfox wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The SW could always get the Leman Russ tank variants in place of the two Land Raider variants. That would sit better with the SW fluff.

I don't know, the crusader has been a nice option for transporting WG termies and large blood claws squads. Though I would be interested in trying out a battle cannon toting LR in my current lists. If it were just the exterminator pattern though, I would pass, as I was never much interested in a 180 point tank with a TL auto cannons.

I seriously think it should be the battle tank over the exterminator, at least. I think losing Crusader and not getting the redeemer would be a fair trade off to getting Leman Russ Battle tanks, possibly demolisher. I still think it'd be neat to see a SW landraider variant, that is in 200 pt ball park and has sacrificed its sponsons for a 20 model transport capacity. I think the large transport is probably the only vehicle niche left in standard sized 40k games and more than other Chapters it seems like its up the SW alley.

At that rate, you're practically talking about a mini-Gorgon.

Alpharius wrote:Good points!

SW's will probably not get Sternguard and/or Vanguard, but Grey Hunters and Blood Claws will get buffed somehow.

I can see them NOT getting the MotF and other tech marine toys too...

But something else in return?

I am looking forward to having a truly NON-CODEX chapter to build from...

I would say that Blood Claws are currently pretty good, being only 14 pts each, having +2 on the charge (and thanks to new counter attack USR, having +2 on the counter charge), and having a special CC weapon per 5 men. They just need to tweek the Bike and Jump Pack options.

Grey Hunters could use some work though

I could see them nixing jump packs and using bikes and scout bikes. space wolves fight on the ground like russ intended.
I cant see them nurfing long fangs or gray hunters. imho I like lr's in my list russ desinged them in the first place they should stay.
as should 15 man blood claws.
I also see them using master of the forge.

Interesting that an Australian manager would be getting the codex but none of the ones in the US did.

Well, you know...we all have big mouths.

Everything that I hope for the new dex has pretty much been covered by someone else, so I won't be redundant...

But if they are looking for new Special Characters, tell 'em to give me a holler...I got a couple ideas I'd love to see universally played.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'll be curious to see the rules changes come out. I suspect that:
- no more 1 HQ per 500 pts

Just a slight correction. Its one HQ choice required for every 750 points.

Heh. Yeah. Oops.

LittleLeadMen wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'll be curious to see the rules changes come out. I suspect that:
- no more 1 HQ per 500 pts

Just a slight correction. Its one HQ choice required for every 750 points.

Either it way, it was that.

As in past tense.

It is sure to be gone...

I can't possibly imagine them keeping the Exterminator in the new book, much less getting more Leman Russ variants. The addition of the LRE was a 3rd edition quirk (althought they could be allied in under 2nd, but then so could harlequins), and might be lost under the old "Units without a model can be nixed" rule. Look at Iron Warrior Basilisks. True they weren't in the main codex, but they were simply dropped wholesale from the new book. Same with Cultists. Looted vehicles were not entirely dropped, but radically changed in the new Ork book.

Essentially, the reason to keep the LREs in the wolf dex is basically: 1) it's got the primarch's name on it, and 2) nearly every wolf player has a baby blue exterminator on the shelf. The cons are much more compelling, IMO: 1) the LR chassis isn't a SM vehicle, 2) Wolves have plenty of heavy support options without needed to loot from the IG, 3) As cliched as it sounds, this is exactly the sort of unit that could be shifted to apocolypse.

From a game balance perspective, there's no real reason not to give marines a tank, or even ordanance. The problem is that any advantage the wolves gain by having access to the LRE needs to be balanced with losing something. To keep it as a fun option would require kieeping the current high price, but GW seems to avoid keeping fun but non-competitive units in the codices these days.

Given how Landraiders are much, much better now, and the LRE was always a bit pricey for the wolves, I can't see it being a huge loss for competitve play. For casual play, I'm guessing it'll stay an option under either Apocolypse or under Imperial Armor.

Polonius wrote:3) As cliched as it sounds, this is exactly the sort of unit that could be shifted to apocolypse.

1) Oh no you didn't!

2) Is that you John?

@Polonius: The primary reason to nuke the Exterminator is the same as the IW Basilisk:

Space Wolf players will be forced to buy something NEW (and SHINY) to replace the points that they can't spend on an Exterminator.

Same with the removal of the 3rd HQ - those points need to be spent elsewhere.

Preferably on a half-dozen brand new, just-released 40-pt $30+ Drop Pods that still need to recover their tooling costs...

Wouldn't the fact that every wolf player has one on the shelf be a con, not a pro?

Alpharius wrote:

Polonius wrote:3) As cliched as it sounds, this is exactly the sort of unit that could be shifted to apocolypse.

1) Oh no you didn't!

2) Is that you John?

Oh, yes he did!

Actually, Apocalypse already allows SW to field IG LRE as Allied unit... No rules or datasheet required!

Well, according the 3rd edition codex, the space wolves keep a few LREs in the chapter armory as an homage to their primarch. How those same three exterminators show up in every 1500pt battle fought by any Great Company is beyond me, but I think shifting them away from competitive play (where they really aren't worth their points now) and towards scenario play is a good thing.

there's a difference between options that add flavor and appeal, and options that are simply there. The Space Wolf codex is chock full of those "wouldn't it be cool" options, or even worse, the "hey, we had rules for these in the past, we should include them." Iron Priests and retinues, Blood Claws with jump packs, LRE... these should all have been more thoroughly vetted or left on the cutting room floor. Options that nobody would take aren't really options. If you're local ice cream parlor serves Chocolate, vanilla, and 29 different flavors of feces, calling itself 31 Flavors is a bit misleading.

If the LRE is priced competitively, it'll eclipse the predator destructor, which is so similar in function as to make having both completely odd. Now if wolves lose the destructor (since they invented the annihilator pattern anyway), then maybe it would be fun to have it as the sole fire support tank in the armory.

That's why I think it should go IA. Heck, let's not forget how many Imperial Guard players have LREs on the shelf that they can't use now. I don't feel for SW players at all.

Polonius wrote:The Space Wolf codex is chock full of those "wouldn't it be cool" options, or even worse, the "hey, we had rules for these in the past, we should include them."

If the LRE is priced competitively, it'll eclipse the predator destructor,

When the current SW book was developed and printed, I don't think GW had a good idea of where SW was going to end up. At least, not like they do today. I'm sure, at the time, GW intended that most of the options in the current SW book would be actively used.

IMO, the Predator Exterminator ought to be a *replacement* for Destructor so that SW don't have the option a budget Pred, either twin-Autocannon Exterminator for infantry, or Annhilator for tanks. Exterminator replacing Destructor gives the sort of useful artificial distinction that is good for differentiation purely for the sake of being different.

I don't think Apocalypse should ever come into the equation of designing a codex. Design for 40k and Apocalypse is just incidental.

To the guy who said the inclusion of LR Exterminator was just a quirk, I'd like to point out it has been officially a part of SW for almost as long as it wasn't. I would also point out that most likely the only reason it wasn't originally included with SW was because they predated the LR tank kit.

I think drop pods will be in there and SW would probably be an opportunity to do a variant kit for that, but who knows. GW could easily reinvent them with this new codex.