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IMO, a couple shield drones aren't going to materially increase Broadside survivability in nearly the same way that a half-dozen extra Marines will.

Yeah cause T4 2+ save, 4+ inv wounds will have little impact on surviability compared to a 3+ save, no inv

Don't underestimate how useful splitting fire is.

The Obliterators can only threaten a single unit or tank each turn. Longfangs can threaten two. And also, please look at things in the context of their army list. Space Wolves have their Scouts which can pop and Meltabomb a tank into oblivion from pretty much anywhere. The rest of the army is heavily geared towards HTH. Ergo, the Longfangs ability to split fire is worth more to a Space Wolf army than if it was applied to say, Dark Angels who are less HTH inclined. There is your premium right there.,

Give pack leaders the ability to take wolves...more fluffy and you still get extra wounds.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Don't underestimate how useful splitting fire is.

The Obliterators can only threaten a single unit or tank each turn. Longfangs can threaten two. And also, please look at things in the context of their army list. Space Wolves have their Scouts which can pop and Meltabomb a tank into oblivion from pretty much anywhere. The rest of the army is heavily geared towards HTH. Ergo, the Longfangs ability to split fire is worth more to a Space Wolf army than if it was applied to say, Dark Angels who are less HTH inclined. There is your premium right there.,

Given the difficulty in destroying vehicles now in 5th and that you have to allocate shots before you start rolling for hits, anti-tank split fire is less usefull as you will usually direct all the lazcannon shots at one vehicle anyways just to make sure you have an effect.

Now if you are splitting fire between anti tank and anti personel that is a better boon (that is until the wolf pack leader becomes a random casualty).

As it is, a LR has about as much firepower as a LF squad, the ability to split shots as well, more manuverability, higher survival ability, and costs about the same :S.

Simply for what you get the LF are just overpriced. It a unit taken out of a need for heavy weapons and not because of the other abilities it currently has. There are better units for fewer points.

Longfangs are overpriced, especially in comparison to new razorback and predator costs. Yes, in the vacumn of X vs Y at about ABC points, they're comparable. But, you're typically comparing them to something else that is either a vehicle, more duable (either similar wounds, better T or Save and/or Inv save, or has albative wounds), or can move and fire.

For the price of a LFs with missile launchers, how many attack bikes or speeders with multi-meltas can you get? 4? You really think the LFs are better at taking down a tank?

And demolishers take out obliterators, but AP3 battlecannos take out LFs - from further away.

LFs need a reworking. By the fluff, they don't have extra squad mates, they all carry a BFG. Giving the units some wolves would help, but I don't care for it. Stealth is -eh-; it's a solution, but I don't think it fits the fluff.

Guys, it's not that I don't think LF need fixing - they do.

And they suffer from many of the same problems that other Heavy Weapons troopers suffer - expensive gun, non-Scoring.

But more that I just have a different idea of what they ought to look like. That is, it isn't LF-like to have extra bodies; it isn't LF-like (or SM-like) to depend on Stealth.

If it were up to me, I'd suggest GW bring down the cost of the Heavy Weapons upgrades themselves - the old 3E price for a Lascannon (that people are using for their examples) just isn't what it should be in 5E, for example.

I can't wait to see what happens when the new fluff about order of promotion hits the SW (if at all). Old fluff was that it went: Scout, Tactical, Heavy/Special Weapon Tactical, Assault and/or Devastator, Veteran, HQ. Now it is Scout, Devastator, Assault, Tactical, Veteran, HQ. The SW go Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fang, Wolf Guard, HQ with some taking the Scout path instead of WG. Now we know why Russ hated the Codex so much, it meant that Long Fangs are doing the same job as the newest/greenest Space Marines in most of the other Chapters.

In my mind, the background took a huge hit in the latest SM Codex.

The Ultramarine fellatio was way over the top, and the new standard of not only does everyone want to be an Ultramarine, but everyone wants to be a Tactical Marine was odd too.

I'm sure that many of the other Founding Legions would inspire others the same if not more than the Ultras do.

Ah well, go Wolves go!

JohnHwangDD wrote:
But more that I just have a different idea of what they ought to look like. That is, it isn't LF-like to have extra bodies; it isn't LF-like (or SM-like) to depend on Stealth.

If it were up to me, I'd suggest GW bring down the cost of the Heavy Weapons upgrades themselves - the old 3E price for a Lascannon (that people are using for their examples) just isn't what it should be in 5E, for example.

I agree with you, that LF squads shouldn't be too large but why not give them the option of adding wolves to the squad for wounds and CC support?

Also, I don't agree with Stealth not being appropriate for Space Wolves... Aren't they supposed to be deadly (i.e. quiet) hunters? The psychic power 'Storm Caller' is about gaining cover through obfuscation, so it's not a stretch to gain a bonus through being stealthy. At worse, I think it's fair to say that they are experienced and cunning enough to have "Bolster Defenses" to grant a piece of terrain +1 to cover saves, ala Techmarines and Lysander.

I suspect Long Fangs may end up being the Sterngaurd of the Space Wolves -- only with 4 heavy weapons instead of 2 and no combi option. They'd have expensive ablative wounds but with the weaponry and stats appropriate for older then old veterans. Then give them an upgrade character that grants split-fire. As a heavy choice that would differentiate them as the heavy weapon toting veterans that they are.

Hmm, I wonder if I can buy a space wolf army off some one at the FLGS. I've always liked the models and with a new dex coming out I might have a good reason to get one

LFs are supposed to be incredibly stubborn, the last to leave the battlefield. I wouldn't be shocked if they gain Fearless, which would help keep a small, expensive squad in the game for as long as possible.

The ability to split fire is nice, but I don't think it's 18 points nice. Plus, the pack leader is the only expendable member of the squad (unless you throw a packleader in there for 30+ points).

SWs should keep the SM tanks and variants. I won't mind them keep the LRE, but I won't be too upset if it's out of the Codex - it's legal in APOC afterall.

The third edition codex had some pretty substantial fluff changes from second edition (role of scouts, experience of blood claws, squads having a dedicated sergeant, and combat squads, plus probably some others).

The Wolves don't really advance in a regimented fashion. They start as Blood Claws, advance to Grey Hunters, and then usually die. Survivors become Sgts, Wolf Guard, Priests, or Scouts. From the WG are chosen the Wolf Lords.

It's a bit more free-form.

I'll trust Kelly with the fluff. Orks and Eldar were right, so hopefully this will be.

Long Fangs need an increase in their effectiveness, or a reduction in point costs. Something to show that unlike their inexperienced ultra counterparts, they really know how to use a gun.

Tank hunters would be a good start. Possibly relentless as well. Stealth Just doesn't seem to fit the fluff.

Give Long Fangs bolster defences and FNP. These are old grizzled SW that know the best places to fight and how to fight through that which knocks down the younger generation.

That gives them a 3+ armor or cover and a 4+ FNP in most situations and would help keep them alive longer. You wouldn't have to add more bodies when each guy can get two saves.

I think that Space Wolves should emphasis the Drop Pod build more than any other Chapter. Some of their earlier fluff really depicted them as the premier Drop Legion, and I'd like to see more of that in the new book.

It would be nice if there was a 13th Co. character that gave access to Wulfen, but it may just be that 13th Co. are relegated to Apocalypse. Regardless, I think that the difference between a Storm Claw and a Blood Claw, and a Grey Slayer and a Grey Hunter, are small enough to be irrelevant.

I don't think it is so much a case of them being the best drop legion, more a case of them not trusting 'modern' technology, and refusing to Teleport. Ever.

BYE

They had a special drop regiment formation in 1st edition Epic.

Well, in current form(3rd ed. dex, 5th ed. rules) they do have an advantige over the others in a DP army....they don't care if they get charged, mostly get their attacks anyway...so I don't really see any more buffs for Droppin in. Although it would be cool if they decided that in a SW army, DP's didn't count as a Kill Point unit, cuz THAT hurts...don't see it happinin though.

dietrich wrote:LFs are supposed to be incredibly stubborn, the last to leave the battlefield. I wouldn't be shocked if they gain Fearless, which would help keep a small, expensive squad in the game for as long as possible.

The ability to split fire is nice, but I don't think it's 18 points nice. Plus, the pack leader is the only expendable member of the squad (unless you throw a packleader in there for 30+ points).

SWs should keep the SM tanks and variants. I won't mind them keep the LRE, but I won't be too upset if it's out of the Codex - it's legal in APOC afterall.

The third edition codex had some pretty substantial fluff changes from second edition (role of scouts, experience of blood claws, squads having a dedicated sergeant, and combat squads, plus probably some others).

not fearless fearless stinks now stubborn is what they need

It would be nice if LFs got Tank Hunters; that bumped marines up to 18pts in the 4th ed marinedex, and that on top of space wolves rules would nice.

This codex sounds as though it's going to come out TOO early... I can't afford to start Space Wolves again any time soon. I will, though. Damn it...

SW won't get Fearless - that's a Chaos Cult Marine ability. SW can have ATSKNF and Stubborn, though...

...and I just sold my LRT Exterminator on eBay.

Alpharius wrote:In my mind, the background took a huge hit in the latest SM Codex.

The Ultramarine fellatio was way over the top, and the new standard of not only does everyone want to be an Ultramarine, but everyone wants to be a Tactical Marine was odd too.

And White Scar Brotherhoods becoming boring old codex Companies. And Iron Hands having their Clan Council replaced by a Chapter Master.

Durandal wrote:Long Fangs need an increase in their effectiveness, or a reduction in point costs. Something to show that unlike their inexperienced ultra counterparts, they really know how to use a gun.

Tank hunters would be a good start. Possibly relentless as well. Stealth Just doesn't seem to fit the fluff.

Well they are overpriced, you pay 3 pts more per LF over a vanilla and 21 pts more for a Pack Leader.

This is compounded by having smurfs get combat tactics with out paying extra points for the new ability. Whereas greyhunters, WG, heroes, and LF pay for having True Grit and Counter Charge at 3 pts a model (Greyhunters + Bolters = 18pts)

Now, LF have the following abilities: Acute Senses, True Grit and Split Fire, Blood Fued (They don't get counter-charge and No Matter the Odds was removed in 5th).

Acute Senses: Still useful, infact, more useful to LF and other Heavy Weapon Choices and less useful to SW troops that lack heavy weopons. However this buff is somewhat countered by happening in only 1 in 3 scenarios.

True Grit: Useless unless they turn LF into stern guard. I doubt this would happen.

Split Fire: This has been effectively reduced in 5th with the abundance of cover saves and the increased survival ability of tanks, which means greater need to combine fire. Couple this with the sergeant being the first casualty and the reason for paying 21 pts for this ability diminishes fast.

Blood Fued: Rare occurance and useless for LF

Personally, I see True Grit and Counter Charge being the exchange for vanilla's combat tactics and therefore not costing SW anything further for these abilities (ie. Grey Hunters, WG, Heroes, and LF drop 3 points each).

Of course true grit and counter charge don't benefit LF so they should trade these abilities for either scout, infiltrate, or stealth. According to 3 space wolf novels I have read, all space wolves are adepts at using thier keen senses to out manuever and sneak up on thier prey. Yeah, they scream and howl, but only after they have caught thier prey unawares and are on top of them. The book mentions long fangs carying out the same tactics.

A second option would be to give the entire army stealth instead of counter charge and true grit which would match the nature of the wolves' style of warefare in the novels. Novel wise, they are werewolves who manage to control thier other more bestial nature.

Exchanging Split Fire for either Tank Hunter or the Relentless USR would be equitable, expecially if it no longer relied on the survival of the Pack Leader (this should cost 15 pts per 5 man squad rather than the current 21 pts).

And I guess in the purely hypothetical inclusion of 13th Company they'd have a special character who comes with mark of the wulfen built in and grant either or both "Scouts" and move through cover to the army or his unit, but disallow drop pods.

Really, I want to see the LF get BS 5 and Stealth. I think its all they really need. (And a price drop cause they no longer score.)

wooooooooot on bs 5 and bolster not stealth. split fire needs to stay

Got to talk to a reliable staffer today further about the codex.

He knew nothing about it HOWEVER he was saying it was probably the new SW FAQ to be released.

He assured me the new drop pod rules are in it as well as other stuff to bring the SWs in line with the new SM codex.

Now I've spent the last half hour on the annoying GW website and cannot find a SW FAQ anywhere.