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aka_mythos wrote:I don't think Apocalypse should ever come into the equation of designing a codex. Design for 40k and Apocalypse is just incidental.

To the guy who said the inclusion of LR Exterminator was just a quirk, I'd like to point out it has been officially a part of SW for almost as long as it wasn't. I would also point out that most likely the only reason it wasn't originally included with SW was because they predated the LR tank kit.

I think drop pods will be in there and SW would probably be an opportunity to do a variant kit for that, but who knows. GW could easily reinvent them with this new codex.

Well, that's a good point. I mean, back in at least early 2nd edition, it was fluff that both SM and IG used both types of vehicles, so there could be IG rhinos and SM Basilisks.

That said, the fluff has both tightened up and gotten deeper. I mean, at the end of the day the LRE has a twin AC and three heavy bolters, while the predator has one AC and two HBs. Offering both seems like it would be difficult to price both so that they have a purpose.

I like options. I really do. I have no problem with it being in the codex. I'm just saying, based on GW's philosophy, I think there are better places for such a vehicle than the main codex. I mean, the exact same vehicle was kept out of the IG codex! It was made part of the Imperial Armor, apocolypse style environment (along with the griffon and the vanquisher), and while it sucked a bit, it honestly wasn't a problem. there are options that are mostly fun, and don't necessarily factor into army balance (either internally or externally). The IA books are full of vehicles that dont' add much to tournament or pick up play, but make arranged games more fun. Without the LRE, Wolves would still have: Long Fangs, LR, LRC, Predators, whirlwinds, vindicators and possibly Redeemers as heavy support choices.

I just can't see any balance that would make both LREs and Destructors equally prevelant in competitive play. Either one or the other will emerge as superior. Right now, the destructor is so much cheaper (85 to 200) as to make it a no brainer.

Back when GW only made the Rhino (i.e. RT), it was an IG vehicle.

Only after the Chimera kit came out did it become exclusive to the Guard, and the Rhino dropped out of use.

I agree that there isn't any good sense to have both LR Exterminator *and* Destructor in the same list.

We all have our little quirks and wishes that we want to see with the new codex. As I am just starting a SW army, this information is very interesting to me.

Personally BCs are fine as they are. GH would be fine at 17 points if they get all the approperate USRs, grenades, bolters, and CCWs included in their cost. They need another marine unit though (T4 3+sv) that can get mixed in alla Sternguard or vanguard (but not sternguard or vanguard).

Our special characters either need to come down drastically in price or have their abilities tuned up. I personally think it would be really sweet if good ol Russ himself made a comeback (I think he is one of the few Primarchs that are still alive) with an astrick that says "apocalypse only*, but make him bad ass and a datasheet in of himself.

The Iron Priest can easily take the place of Motf if he is fleshed out a little bit. Our Wolf Priests should be upgrade characters like current apothicaries or painboys. The Rune Priest needs a larger selection of psychic powers and LD 10 psychic hood ability.

Long Fangs need help. Maybe just more bodies to make them actually survivable and useful.

Space wolf scouts are fine as is, but maybe a few better weapon options. As is, they are still only one of two units that can come in on your back table edge and not from the flank.

Natuarally SW vehicles should all get a price reduction to keep them in line with the current SM prices.

IMO Long Fangs are actually pretty much perfect the way they are: fixed-size 5-man squad with Vet and 4 guns.

Adding more bodies just homogenizes them to be ordinary SM Devastators.

People took devistators because they worked. People took LF because they were one of the few long range options. It didn't mean that they worked. At an average cost of 40 points each for a single wound T4 3+ save model, it really sucks.

No, LF need to change if only to make them table top competitive. Not just fluffy.

Jayden, you forget you're talking to a long-time Eldar player. Throughout 3E and 4E, Dark Reapers were ~45 pts (on average) for a T3 Sv4+ model, with even more limited weapons options. They're back to Sv3+ now with a couple more options, but if you want to talk about a glass hammer...

So because they suffer the same problems that Dark Reapers suffer (no ablative wounds), they should stay that way?

God forbid you ever become a games designer DD...

BYE

Well, both long fangs and reapers were written in an environement that allowed infantry to screen each other. It was a pretty huge difference, and kept squads like that in the running far longer than they would today.

I think the best thing would be to give the Long Fangs some varaint of the Stealth Suit rule, where it's harder to see them from distance.

Remember, the Space Wolves are an army that Jervis wanted to do ages ago, with the claim that they are one of the few true good guys in the Imperium that care about civilians.

Why should LF get Stealth? They're T4 Sv3+ and will probably get Sv4+ cover from intervening models. That's pretty darn good.

Not all armies should have ablative wounds on their long-range gunners. Tau Broadsides don't. Chaos Obliterators don't. Dark Reapers don't. Long Fangs don't. Ratlings don't. It's part of what makes the unit distinctive.

hey, they can have it, but for a S@#T load of points, less models means me boyz and Nids can kill faster

JohnHwangDD wrote:Tau Broadsides don't.

Tougher.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Chaos Obliterators don't.

Tougher.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Dark Reapers don't.

Fortune.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Long Fangs don't.

Pricey and fragile.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Ratlings don't.

And how many of those do you see?

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's part of what makes the unit distinctive.

I was not aware that 'sucking' was a selling point... in miniatures at least.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why should LF get Stealth? They're T4 Sv3+ and will probably get Sv4+ cover from intervening models. That's pretty darn good.

Not all armies should have ablative wounds on their long-range gunners. Tau Broadsides don't. Chaos Obliterators don't. Dark Reapers don't. Long Fangs don't. Ratlings don't. It's part of what makes the unit distinctive.

Broadsides get shield drones
Oblits have 2 wounds apiece, besides the point that you're totally ignoring Havok squads, which definitely DO have ablative wounds.
Ratlings are cheaper than the other options, so ablative wounds aren't neccessary (And the true long range gunners-heavy weapon squads DO have ablative wounds built in).

Reapers are the only ones that don't have ablative wounds, and this just doesn't fit thier style (Though they do have fortune to make them hard to kill...)

Long fangs don't have ablative wounds and it doesn't fit thier style. However, having the stealth rule WOULD fir thier style as they are the oldest and most experienced Wolves. That and possibly a price drop would make them more balanced.

skyth wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why should LF get Stealth? They're T4 Sv3+ and will probably get Sv4+ cover from intervening models. That's pretty darn good.

Not all armies should have ablative wounds on their long-range gunners. Tau Broadsides don't. Chaos Obliterators don't. Dark Reapers don't. Long Fangs don't. Ratlings don't. It's part of what makes the unit distinctive.

Broadsides get shield drones
Oblits have 2 wounds apiece, besides the point that you're totally ignoring Havok squads, which definitely DO have ablative wounds.
Ratlings are cheaper than the other options, so ablative wounds aren't neccessary (And the true long range gunners-heavy weapon squads DO have ablative wounds built in).

Reapers are the only ones that don't have ablative wounds, and this just doesn't fit thier style (Though they do have fortune to make them hard to kill...)

Long fangs don't have ablative wounds and it doesn't fit thier style. However, having the stealth rule WOULD fir thier style as they are the oldest and most experienced Wolves. That and possibly a price drop would make them more balanced.

If they are the best and all that, make them most expensive in points the better the more xpensive right

Long Fangs relative to other similar choices are either over priced or left lacking a neccesary survival boost. While it might be "characterful" to not have the ablative wounds it doesn't mean amyone should pay for what is currently an overpriced unit. It might not be by much but mean tweeking is needed on them.

I could see them getting a vet skill or something like it

sonofruss wrote:I could see them nixing jump packs and using bikes and scout bikes. space wolves fight on the ground like russ intended.
I cant see them nurfing long fangs or gray hunters. imho I like lr's in my list russ desinged them in the first place they should stay.
as should 15 man blood claws.
I also see them using master of the forge.

Nah, I want my bloodclaws with jump packs and smoke grenades, like Russ intended, in 2nd edition.

Personally not a fan of the guard tanks in a marine list. I'd bet that falls away, as the basilisk has fallen away in other marine armies.
What we really need is Berzerker dreadnought, complete with battle axe in one hand, and giant beer stein in the other, mayhaps a nice viking helmet on top. No?

rofl bikes fulfill all the rolls of jump packs and get a inv save when they turbo boost

@Frazzled: Err... no.

I realize its a "guard tank in a marine list" but seriously didn't their primarch design the thing, which is more justification than a basalisk in a IW army. You'd have to question why he designed it, if not for his own legion to use was it than just done for the guard? If so he must have been the "nicest" primarch.

It just strikes me as a neat aspect to the SW and is very distinguishing (in a good way, not at all like LF). It goes a long way to making them distinctive from other chapters while filling in some short comings.

It was designed when russ got tired of ig tanks blowing up next to him paper armor and all that

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Now if GW does a Celestial Lions or Relicators sprue I'd be on that like @#$% on @#$%.

I'd love GW to do a type of "cursed founding" sprue, that would cover all sorts of different SM types.. Black Dragons, Salamanders, Iron Snakes, Celestial Lions, Relictors, etc.. But I doubt GW has aloted that for a plastic sprue..

That would be cool. I always thought GW could do pretty well for itself if it did sprues of just bits, that weren't neccesarily tied to a release or even a specific kit. Like generic icons and bionics and other things that have general use. Anything that is on the vehicle decal sheet done in 3d could potentially be such a bit.

Wouldn't the 13th Company logically be a special charcater option with the current design philosphy?

I.E. a Space Wolf army selects Bob, Master of the Bad Dogs as a special HQ choice and can now take a bunch of 13th Company stuff as core choices?

I bet we'll see a 13th company special character... Storm Claws and Grey Slayers as elites, special character disallows Grey Hunters and Blood Claws, and makes Storm Claws FA choices and Grey Slayers troop choices. Probably Wulfen in there, too.

My guess is the standard special rules for SW will be Counter-Attack and Stubborn. True Grit will be replaced with Grey Hunters (and Slayers) getting bolter/bp/ccw. Grey Hunters will probably stay priced similarly; they're significantly overcosted now, but those changes ("never outnumbered" to Stubborn, True Grit to bolter/bp/ccw) will bring them more in line with their real value.

Also expecting Bjorn to make a comeback, and have similar rules to the current SW Venny; otherwise, venerables will have rules similar to current SM venerables.

Bikes and jumpers will, of course, get modern pricing. I think this is the single thing I'm most awaiting in a SW codex (as a SW player) -- fast attack choices that are actually reasonably priced.

Kinda doubt we'll see a Leman Russ variant in the SW list.

Really, though, SW armies are going to change radically, if for nothing else that we're going from 3rd edition pricing philosophy to 5th edition pricing philosophy... For example, a Blood Claw is 14 points. Give him a jump pack and he's 30 points. A Space Marine is 15ish points (depending on how exactly you value them), with a jump pack he's 19ish points. This alone is going to radically change what SW armies on the table look like, before getting in to any possible radical changes of other units.

I'm fully expecting 13th company to disappear as a playable option and get a fluff mention only.

It'd be cool to have a 13th Company special character to set that tone for the army and it is kinda create parallels with DA's Belial and Samael as army changing commanders.

It will also be interesting to see if GW continue with the idea of unit upgrading special characters as well.

On the Leman Russ, who knows maybe it ends up being a Iron Priest special characters personal vehicle.

skyth wrote:Broadsides get shield drones
Oblits have 2 wounds apiece, besides the point that you're totally ignoring Havok squads, which definitely DO have ablative wounds.
Ratlings are cheaper than the other options, so ablative wounds aren't neccessary (And the true long range gunners-heavy weapon squads DO have ablative wounds built in).

Reapers are the only ones that don't have ablative wounds, and this just doesn't fit thier style (Though they do have fortune to make them hard to kill...)

Long fangs don't have ablative wounds and it doesn't fit thier style. However, having the stealth rule WOULD fir thier style as they are the oldest and most experienced Wolves. That and possibly a price drop would make them more balanced.

IMO, a couple shield drones aren't going to materially increase Broadside survivability in nearly the same way that a half-dozen extra Marines will.

Those Guard HWS are only 6-men, T3 Sv5+... Compared to Ratlings in cover, you start losing HWS effectiveness pretty quickly... Now if they were a full 10 guys, that'd be a different story.

You're suggesting that each Reaper squad gets a dedicated HQ to try and keep them alive? Really?

How long have Long Fangs been 5-man squads? I think it's definitely part of their style, and really, adding Stealth simply bumps them up in cost. A basic LF with Stealth is worth at least 20 pts. Plus weapons and Sergeant. I mean, I know you want uber LF, but asking for a bonus USR *and* a price cut is OTT.

I look forward to the day when SW are once again considered a cheesy, over the top army.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
How long have Long Fangs been 5-man squads? I think it's definitely part of their style, and really, adding Stealth simply bumps them up in cost. A basic LF with Stealth is worth at least 20 pts. Plus weapons and Sergeant. I mean, I know you want uber LF, but asking for a bonus USR *and* a price cut is OTT.

Currently:

3 Obliterators: 6 Wounds, Fearless, 2+5++ sv, Weapon choices, Relentless (via S&P), Deepstrike = 225 points
5 Long Fangs: 5 wounds, 3+ sv, 4 Lascannon, Shoot at 2 targets with Pack Leader (usually first wound) = 248 points.

Stealth and a price cut is not OTT.

3 Obliterators with Deep Strike = 1 Demolisher Cannon to remove.