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I think this comes down to what makes Tyranids unique versus other races.

Personally, I would like to see their shooting get worse actually. Tyranids should be the only race that can field an effective "no guns" army. They are close to doing that now.

I would make Gaunts the only troop choice, with maybe the exception that a Broodlord allows Geenstealers taken as troops. Guants should be cheaper and fielded in large squad sizes. Maybe even a 10 man minimum on the unit.

I think that shooting is a core mechanic for any army that can do it. Just because you are good in close combat doesn't mean you should get slaughtered without retaliation on the way in.

Most bugs aren't great shooters anyway, making them worse would simply force you to not use ranged symbiotes.

Squig_herder wrote:my wish list for nids:
1. Synapse becomes line of sight not 12" or maybe just increase range to 18-24" maybe.

That or our guants/hormies get their hive mind mutants back (Leadership 10 ala 3rd edition).

2. remove the kill points rule on spore mines, thats just stupid
6. another type of spore mine, maybe
7. cheaper biovores and increase in Ld to maybe 8-9?

Spore mines in general were stupid in 4rth and have become exceedingly dumb in 5th. Go back to the rules of Biovores in 3rd. Leadership 10, independant, Large Blast Templates, Change the flamer (3rd edition bio acid) rules to pointing towards the nearest enemy rather than random, and spore mines not worth KP.

3. taking two of the same weapons eg. venom cannon. doesnt have to be twin linked.

Again, back to 3rd. That or reduce the cost of purchasing the second (TL) weapon.

4. increase the toughness of raveners or the save, maybe T4(5) or Sv4+/5++

Now that rending got nerfed, the redeemability factor for this unit has been severely reduced. Maybe giving them the ability to assault after deep striking and keep the current point cost. Still I don't expect to see too many of these played in future additions.

5. much cheaper base cost of hormagaunts to 6 with no bio-morphs

That would be too cheap, maybe 9-10 pts. What they need even more is a boost in either synapse or a hive node mutant

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Personally, I'd remove the Without Number upgrade. It's simply unnecessary. I could leave a unit of Burna Boyz at the Tyranid player's table edge and farm kill points. Also makes Tyranids all but immune to the Wipe Out! rule. Imo, you need to able to wipe out the enemy. There is no point in playing if you can't.

Well that is only because he keeps choosing to regenerate them. He doesn't have to.

Skinnattittar wrote:Personally, I hate over running my opponent. Rarely happens, as I mentioned before, I play Guard, but when it does, I a) don't enjoy not having a challenge and b) feel a little bad for the other player, who must be a bit frustrated. So maybe the Tyranids do need their cheese army lists castrated a bit.

5th edition has already taken a nit of the wind out of nidzilla's sail. Rending nerf really put some hurt on genestealers and the VC has been downgraded from a tank destroyer to a tank silencer (even that has been reduced thanks to vehicle cover saves).

Yes other armies have rending, but for tyranids, rending has been thier bread and butter since 3rd edition.

We have plenty of armies in the game that can be consider "purely" shooty; IG, Necrons, Tau, even Space Marines to a certain extent.

We don't have any reall purely Assault Armies. Orks are close, but still have a rather strong shooty element, Chaos leans towards Assault, but still rely on a lot of shooting elements.

I say Tyranids shoul be the one army that can effectively field a "no guns" list. It works well with fluff (tons of disposable killing machines).

I am not saying that Tyranids should have no shooting as that goes against their existing fluff. I am just arguing for more limited shooting, whilst adding incentives to encourage a crazy run in your face play style.

How about 5 point guants, and 10 point Hormagaunts?

How about making the Venom Cannon slightly better but 15 points more expensive, and give Carnifexes fleet?

How about restricitng multiples of the same weapon on creatures?

How about giving leaping to work like calvary and make it dirt cheap for warriors?

How about allowing any winged model in the army to still run?

That may seem a little extreme, but those are the types of changes I am talking about.

jp400 wrote:Yeah...... Then why cant any other STR 10 gun in the game fire 2 shots that hit on a 4+?? That would So make Vindicator tanks worth it.

Because vindicators are AP 2, Large Blast, and Ordanance (good against both tanks and infantry).
Broadsides are 72" range, TL, and AP 1. Hammerheads have a large blast anti infantry option.

The VC is an antitank gun that uses hardened crystals to pentrate metal and then aciding poison to kill the crew. The glancing only should be removed. If you wanted to you could say that VC reroll 6s when rolling on the damage chart of non-opentopped vehicles, or that they incur a -1 penalty on the damage chart for non-opentopped vehicles. But there should be a realistic chance of destroying a vehicle with an anti-vehicle weapon.

The Grundel wrote:I played nids in 3rd and 4th edition, and started up again a few weeks ago for 5th edition.

One thing I must say is the current nid codex is very balanced. It provides a very unique type of army to play that can pack a punch, without being cheesy. Most of the 5h edition rules carry over nicely to it and overall I feel that the list is barely lacking. There are 2 major issues and 2 minor I think should be dealt with.

1. Venom cannon: it was fine in 4th ed. when you could roll a 6 and destroy the vehicle but those rules are gone with 5th edition and its left a serious hole in the nids list.

2. Biovores.

The 2 minor issues is the useless upgrade options for the canifex, and the unadjusted points for the bonuses that some of the upgrades now convey. That and they NEED to make a universal biomorph sprue so people can have all the little pieces that they need to WYSIWYG.

I would add a third major fix: Something needs to be done about units with rending. Since rending got nerfed in a big way, points costs for rending upgrades and stealers should drop.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

The VC is an antitank gun that uses hardened crystals to pentrate metal and then acidic poison to kill the crew.

gorgon wrote:Price breaks -- mostly aimed at Gaunts and Warriors would be the main fixes, IMO. If Orks are worth 6 pts, you could make the case for Gaunts at 4. A 5+ save (either base or as an option) might help at combat res time. However it happens, they need to become better tarpits again.

Lictors need a complete rethink. Carnifexes need biomorph fixes. Biovores just need a tweak.

Tweak? Biovores need a complete overhaul.

For all of you people saying Hormagaunts should be about 10 points for balance, um, pull out the codex.

THEY ARE 10 POINTS.

A base Gaunt should be 3 points. A base Hormagaunt should be about 8.

Bring back the spike rifle.

What I'd like to see and what will happen are two different things.

I am guessing what will happen:
-warriors, gaunts, hormagaunts will get cheaper but otherwise work the same.
-some no brainer stealer biomorphs will get nerfed but otherwise stay the same (feeder tendrils goes away or gets more expensive/useless, scuttlers makes them elite or goes away, etc).
-Ravenors will prolly get the assault after deepstrike ability but go up in price such that no one takes them (ala vanguard). Perhaps a way to buy hit and run.
-Lictors -- I really dunno I think something like what HBMC posted will happen but probably not quite that good. I suspect they will be more killy but still just as squishy or nearly so. Inv save will not happen unless it is close combat only.
-Elite carnifexes either goes away or is limited to certain biomorphs, like just close combat weapons and a few other limitations. Otherwise pretty much as HMBC posted I think stuff like crusher claws will become amazing and the shooting stuff will get nerfed, even if just a bit.
-Biovores will become pretty good probably, dunno how exactly but they need a boost and i think the penduluum will swing hard.
-Gargoyles will get better, probably a boost to bio-plasma and some discounts -- as there will be a plastic kit.

What I would like to see
-Total revamp of synapse. Not tied to any one idea but feel no pain for the non-synapse, non-brood telepathy models would be cool. would make current costs of said models somewhat more palatable. However perhaps make it more of a disadvanatge to boot (not being in synapse is worse, death of synapse has neg effect on army like -1I for a round, etc).

-Some interesting biomorphs instead of stat boost ad naseum. Like say opening up some of the TMC ones to lesser beings. Also maybe balance biomorphs with disadvantages instead of just a cost increase to make them more likely to be taken. Like say toxin sacs lowers I on a gaunt or warrior, etc etc.

-Tyranid warriors biomorphs to get them into tyrant guard territory (or atleast T5 3+ save), perhaps with some sort of disadvantage like a lower synapse range, slow and purposeful or similar.

-Overall I want to see a more interesting army list that is much more mutable and more close combat oriented.

For the pure CC army, daemons can easily make a run for it. They don't have much shooting, though what they do have is rather decent.

Personally, I'd like to see a reduction in synapse. Making models fearless or immune to ID is bad enough, but both is really harsh when you're facing 6 Carnis and 2 Tyrants. (I've been on both sides of having fearless and eternal warrior, so I know full well how rough it is). On 8 monstrous creatures it's just broken. Until you do something to remove or reduce the ability to have both on your monstrous creatures, or at least reduce the radius so you have a chance at getting a carni out of synapse so you have a chance at killing it, nidzilla isn't going away. As far as making synapse line of sight, uh, no. If you do that, might as well just do away with synapse and instinctive behavior, and then give everyone eternal warrior and fearless.

So using instant death to kill want amounts to 50-75% (low count!) of an army in . . . 4-6 wounds is fair?

ok. . . /boggle

Really though.

Biovores need work. I love them and I hate to field them now.

Same for Spore Mines.

And Lictors.

And Hormagants.

Gargoyles and Raveners, I like, but do not like to field anymore. Similar issues, but not as strong a feeling.

Basically, the whole thing could use work - but the codex as a whole is viable still.

Yeah, really. About as fair as running into 8 monstrous creatures that are super tough, and have ridiculous saves that you can't get through, to do enough wounds to stop them from getting to you, before they rip through your army, starting on round 2 thanks to the new run rule. If the nidzilla were reasonable, as opposed to a bit on the overpowered side, you'd see less of it. I'm ok with it being viable as a list, just not more viable than anything else that is available, and would like to see less of it.

I would like to see raveners stay the same point value but gain a 4+ save and toughness five. Remove the gun if you have too, it doesn't even make sense on the model. They are fluffed as giant burrowing hormugaunts, make them giant burrowing hormugaunts.

Lictors need the same thing, same point value but a T5 and a 4+ save. Maybe another attack too. The point value seems right and makes me feel like they are more than a throwaway, but they just can't take the return in combat.

Zoanthropes need to no longer be 0-1, otherwise they are perhaps the single most balanced unit in the book points wise.

Biovores also need to drop the 0-1. They also need better spore mines or a drop in price.

Carnifexes are fine as is, though I would restrict the elite carnifex entry to close combat units only.

Hive tyrants are fine as is, though a few of the upgrades need updating.

Broodlords are better in fifth but need some sort of invulnerable save, genestealers are a bad bodyguard

I would like to see tyrant guard available as a seperate unit to the hive tyrant, but only useable while within synapse. Otherwise they would die or go inert or something. The tyrant guard would provide a good heavy troop in the codex since it really just jumps from the gaunt to the carnifex as far as non synapse non fast assault utility goes.

Genestealers seem fine as is, though I would lower the points of the armor upgrade.

Gargoyles need a new model, otherwise they are perfectly fine as is.

Rippers need their squad size to increase to 3-20 or higher. At 10 they aren't worth taking in the troops slot and are too vulnerable to assault canons and the like.

Warriors are fine as is, though the deathspitter is a bit undercosted now.

Hormugaunts are fine as is, as are termagaunts.

Did I miss anything?

ShumaGorath wrote:Gargoyles need a new model, otherwise they are perfectly fine as is.

,,,

Warriors are fine as is, though the deathspitter is a bit undercosted now.

No one uses these units. How are they 'fine'?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Gargoyles need a new model, otherwise they are perfectly fine as is.

,,,

Warriors are fine as is, though the deathspitter is a bit undercosted now.

No one uses these units. How are they 'fine'?

BYE

I've seen tons of people use them, and a sizeable warrior squad with deathspitters behind gaunts can put out a terrifying ammount of firepower and is hard to kill. You don't see gargoyles often because the all metal models make collection exceedingly expensive and difficult and you don't see warriors as much (though i see them all the time) because nidzilla doesn't use them.

Do you just have a large ammount of nidzilla in your local area? The vast majority of the tyranid players in Maine use either a mixed force with warriors or huge swarms with warriors. I was the only person in my area that refused to use them. They were crap in fourth, I'll give you that. The change to blasts and gaining 4+ cover means that a 28 point warrior can actually pay for itself several times over. I have trouble dealing with them with my army.

dancingcricket wrote:Personally, I'd like to see a reduction in synapse. Making models fearless or immune to ID is bad enough, but both is really harsh when you're facing 6 Carnis and 2 Tyrants. (I've been on both sides of having fearless and eternal warrior, so I know full well how rough it is). On 8 monstrous creatures it's just broken.

Er... do you own a Tyranid codex, or are you just complaining about Synapse? What S12 gun are you shooting a Tyrant/Fex with hoping to instant kill it? A Carnifex is already Fearless, Synapse or not. This just lets Warriors, Lictors, and Raveners survive to use both wounds against high strength weaponry. If your Tyranid opponent is relying on that to keep such fragile units alive, and succeeding, you have bigger problems than Synapse.

dancingcricket wrote:About as fair as running into 8 monstrous creatures that are super tough, and have ridiculous saves that you can't get through, to do enough wounds to stop them from getting to you, before they rip through your army, starting on round 2 thanks to the new run rule.

I'll agree that T6 can be a pain at times, but a 3+ save on HQ, Elite, and Heavy Support units all costing 113 points or more is hardly ridiculous. How many Marine players are there? And yes, you can give these guys a 2+ save for 25 points a model, and still no invul save to speak of or a 35 point upgrade to Tyrants that takes up their psychic power and gives them a mighty 6+ invul save. If your plan was to take down Carnifex with bolters, you're right, it's fairly difficult. Replace bolters with plasma, melta, missiles, power fists/klaws, etc. and they go down. How about those assault Termies with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers? 2+/3++, hits cause you to swing at I1?

As far as the run rule, every model in the game can do this so you can't complain when a Carnifex can do it. If anything, Tyranid and Eldar players should be complaining that Fleet is now no different than Run except the turn you're in assault range from it. Units classified as 'Fleet of Foot' are supposed to be faster than non-Fleet infantry but now they're the same speed.

Warriors should be toughness 5 base, period.

Have the Squats eat their home world.

I know they're T6. I also know that they've bounced nightbringer, and that the rest of a necron army is rather ineffectual. Immune to skulltakers special rending/ID ability, Soul Devourer gift of Tzeentch, force weapons, or any other attack you'd normally want to use to try to take out the super baddy that your bolter fire is bouncing off of. 1 or two baddies like that, fine. 3-4 ok. Can deal with that. 8? Uh, no.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

Uh how does a powerfist?

Yea...

Mahu wrote:...see their shooting get worse...
I would make Gaunts the only troop choice, ...

Seeing as how gaunts are completely worthless outside of taking objectives (bad at CC and shooting) I have no idea how this could be a good change, wow. I think Tyranid warriors ought to be troop choices, after all they are TYRANID WARRIORS??? Not hivetyrants. (Besides they have no armor and mediocre shooting and cc abilities anyway)

Augustus wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

Uh how does a powerfist?

Yea...

A powerfist is a great honking gauntlet shrouded in deadly energies. A Venom Cannon shoots poison.
I would keep Hormies at 10 pts, and maybe give them F-Charge to put them on par with Ork Boyz.

Cheese Elemental wrote:A Venom Cannon shoots poison.

Were you not paying attention?

"The VC is an antitank gun that uses hardened crystals to pentrate metal and then acidic poison to kill the crew."

It doesn't just 'shoot poison'. It's almost a biological railgun.

BYE

VC, Pg 30 tyranid Codex.

In fact, hormies should be dirt cheap; about 6 points. An Ork boy pays 6 pts for two CCW, WS4, S3+F-Charge, T4, and a shooting attack, albeit at BS2.
A Hormagaunt plays 10 pts for +1 BS over the Boy (which it can't use!), -1S, -1T, and piss-poor Ld, requiring synapse to avoid breaking, while Orks have their 11+ fearless mob rule. Hormies should be 5 pts and have F-Charge at least.

If gaunts become the only troop choice, the nids would be nerfed. I find it funny that people don't like the genestealers as they are. Even when I play against them, they have no save and are a toughness 4. Shoot them!

I think a lot of the parts of the codex are fine the way they are. I think if they would make gaunts either cheaper or a little stronger at either close combat or shooting then you'd see less "cheese" armies but with gaunts being useless (other than screening) what would anyone expect?

I just saw second elementals post and I highly agree...that's the type of stuff that forces nid players to take units other than gaunts...they simply don't work.