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Genestealers shouldn't cost the same as bloodletter, so I say lower their price to 12.

Lower Hormagaunts cost to 8

I'm ok where Gaunts price are.

Have Zoanthropes have a bigger range for Synapse, I'd say 24 to 36 inches.

Biovores need a big blast template.
Raveners are useless until they fix attack and deepstrike.
Warriors should have a 4+ save.

That's all I have for now.

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Gargoyles need a new model, otherwise they are perfectly fine as is.

,,,

Warriors are fine as is, though the deathspitter is a bit undercosted now.

No one uses these units. How are they 'fine'?

BYE

I've seen tons of people use them, and a sizeable warrior squad with deathspitters behind gaunts can put out a terrifying ammount of firepower and is hard to kill. You don't see gargoyles often because the all metal models make collection exceedingly expensive and difficult and you don't see warriors as much (though i see them all the time) because nidzilla doesn't use them.

Do you just have a large ammount of nidzilla in your local area? The vast majority of the tyranid players in Maine use either a mixed force with warriors or huge swarms with warriors. I was the only person in my area that refused to use them. They were crap in fourth, I'll give you that. The change to blasts and gaining 4+ cover means that a 28 point warrior can actually pay for itself several times over. I have trouble dealing with them with my army.

Well, the only reasonable option for warriors right now is death spitter spam. A couple reasons it is becoming more common is 1) it has few other options to compete with, daka fexes being its only real competition for a shooty nid army in filling out an elite slot 2) Dakka Fexes have a harder time finding cover saves in 5th. 3) Reasonable chance of getting its points back (ie good value).

I would not call the DS warrior as under valued (I personaly think it is balanced), it is just that thier is little competition for the slot. Furthermore, we are still talking BS 2, so you have an average 5" scatter on a small Blast Template. If you spend the points to TL the DS, then we are not talking about a 28 pt model. Moreover it has T 4 and Sv 5+. Definately not undervalued. I would persoanlly like to see other warrior builds become more viable.

I would say that the reason you don't see gargoyles is that they are over priced pointwise.

Therefore I would agree with HBMC that both units need work

Bringing this back...

Hive Tyrants I think are fine, but maybe give the S6 instead of S5, as I think it is a bit silly that a monstrous creature that can tear apart tanks with ease is only S5. I think the venom cannon is a bit expensive, maybe by 5 or 10 points.

Tyrant guard are just fine I think, need to pick a few of these up to use.

Broodlord is fine, I would like to pay more points to start with a 3+ save stock, or give him something else to make him a bit more survivable. I don't think making him tougher is fair, T5 is pretty good already.

Warriors are too expensive, they need to have 25% dumped off their base and upgrade costs to make them more viable. Maybe 25% is too much, but they are still too expensive.

Lictors are about 20 points too expensive - they are cool to use but don't get enough play because they cost the same as 5 genestealers.

Genestealers are fine, maybe reduce cost of ex. carapace by 1 point.

Gaunts are probably 1 point too expensive. No matter how many upgrades you throw on them they just get shredded from shooting and in combat.

Hormagaunts too expensive as well. I would say 7 might be as low as you would go points wise as then they are too cheap. The new fearless combat resolution issues make all gaunts really vulnerable in close combat - and it especially bad for hormagaunts as they always hae to assault.

Raveners way too expensive. 5 or 10 points less for starters, and maybe make the ranged weapon symbiotes cheaper. For something with only a 5+ save you can set them up at 50 points too easily. They either need a better save or something else to make them more attractive.

Carnifex's are fine, maybe even make them T7. T6 is good but pretty vulnerable, which isn't what the fluff is about. T7 makes it a bit more survivable and is more "realistic".

Gargoyles - enough said already, cool idea but $1 per point is ridiculous that is FW prices there. If they make these in plastic they would sell like hotcakes - maybe 12 in a pack for the same price as gaunts, or even 16 if GW is feeling generous, given that gargoyles don't get any biomorphs making the sprue simpler (wings, body, head, weapons or legs?).

Zoanthropes seem pretty reasonable. Maybe give warp blast 24" blast all the time.

Spore mines need to not be a FA choice, they need to not contribute to force organisation at all.

CLD wrote:
Carnifex's are fine, maybe even make them T7. T6 is good but pretty vulnerable, which isn't what the fluff is about. T7 makes it a bit more survivable and is more "realistic".

I agree with everything besides the tyrant upgrading to S6(Why? He's already amazing as is), and this bit about carnifex's.

I'm in the line of thinking adding thirty points to their base cost ought to make nidzilla go away til next edition(As it's all anyone ever plays anymore.)

Gaunts need to go down in price, raveners need reworking(5t 4+ and infiltrate), and warriors could use a little points break.

And I don't think I've ever seen a spore mine or biovore on the table...ever. In all honesty, I forgot they were in the codex.

I agree that the tyrant is good - I just think fluff wise a monstrous creature such as the tyrant should be a little bit stronger than oh say a Broodlord. The carnifex T7 is more a wish list sort of thing, I don't think they would really do that as they are very tough as is.

I don't think they should make nidzilla go away - other races have power builds as well, why take away one of the only tyranid ones? And it isn't the only thing you see being played, go and look at the army lists on this forum, I would say only 10 - 20% are nidzilla. The rest are pretty balanced.

I don't think raveners need T5 as I don't think that really fits with the fluff. T4 is fine, they just need a 4+ save and a points break. They are way too expensive.

I played nids vs nids on the weekend and the guy I was playing used biovores - they were not very effective even in a brood of 3. He did of course utilise warrior deathspitter spam. That was a killer.

Wow, somebody used Biovores...will wonders never cease

Wow you totally just showed me up right there pal, I am smarting from that one.

Is someone upset they didn't get there usual early morning spooning?

I'd say rather than limiting or improving Synapse, it should become rather critical to the Army.

In 2nd Edition, it went a too far way the one way, whereby once all Synapse had been taken down, the Tyranid player automatically lost.

Then came 3rd Edition, and their horrific first Codex, whereby taking Hive Node, the effects of Synapse were largely eradicated completely.

I'm not terribly familiar with the current book, but I still say that Synapatic Webs need to be a major consideration for the Tyranid Player.

In Epic, they used hexagonal cards to 'plot' your web. You started off with a Synapse Creature, and depending on how large the creature, you could add a number of broods to this. Perhaps this could be of use? Sure, it's break from the FoC, but then if any army could benefit in terms of themeing, surely it's the Tyranids?

Essentially, I feel the total loss of Synapse on the board should be utterly catastrophic for the Tyranid army. Give each unit an instinctive behaviour for when out of Synapse Range sure, but keep it sensible. Gaunts of all varieties should lurk, counting as pinned until brought back under Syanptic control. Whilst outside of it, nothing should count as a scoring unit. Carnifexes should move like Spawn, randomly toward the nearest enemy unit, representing it's bestial, unthinking nature. It's all fine and well to say instincts go far beyond simple behaviours like this, but then Tyranid constructs don't have the same instincts as we have. They are engineered, usually with a specific task in mind. Let the instincts reflect that.

I still argue that rules for non-Synapse horde only armies should exist.

All you get are gaunts and Hormagaunts. They simply charge the enemy. They cannot hold objectives, table quarters, or anything. No scuttling or outflanking, nothing. The only way the horde army wins is by tabling the opponent.

This would work better for smaller games without vehicles, since they really couldn't kill many of them.

Hate to say it, but that sounds really boring to play against!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hate to say it, but that sounds really boring to play against!

Really? I'd love the desperation aspect of having to try to gun them down before they get to you. Fighting them more as Tyranids are fluffed than they end up in actual games.

In General, I agree, but here is my twist on the Hive Mind of views:
Give all Models Fleet: With run, fleet is not massively more impressive. For those that already had fleet, cut prices somewhat, again due to run.
Make rending claws=Power weapons, 'cause rending got nerfed
Lictor: either really boost it, or cut it down to 50-60 points. Also allow it to avoid deepstike mishaps.
Hormagaunts: just make them leaping, not beasts, and cut the cost by 2-4 points without 'morphs.
Spore mines not worth VP
Plastic gargoyles
Raveners can assault the turn they deepstrike
Make winged models.
Venom Cannons can Pen.
Other than that, as far as my experiance goes, the list is fairly good.

Trouble is, leaping makes you a Beast, it's in the rules.

Why suddenly give Stealers Power Weapons? That would involve a fairly high price hike for them.

Spore Mines are bought and paid for, why not give out VPs?

Why allow Raveners to assault after deepstrike? Only one unit can do that currently. Whats wrong with timing it as best you can to tie up potential ranged threats for when they arrive?

Venom Cannons I kind of agree with, seeing as how the charts have changed.

Leaping does not make them beasts, down in the rules.
Stealers are paying for 4th ed. Rending, which was quite good, so the point boost would not be that great, and if the points for fleet are dropped, it would probably balance out.
Raveners assaulting after deepstrike is just more in line with their fluff.
Spore mines are just suicide attack units, so are not worth anything, hence no VP.
Also, bring back the red terror.

But Fleet is still extremely tasty, with being allowed to assault up to 18" in any given turn.

Raveners still need to emerge from their holes, and somehow I doubt it would be to a round of applause.

Spore Mines might be suicide troops, but they still cause damage. I could say the same for Shield Drones. They are there to absorb damage only, should they give nothing?

Synapse is already critical to the army. The fourth edition codex brought it back in a big way with the elimination of Hive Nodes. The problem is that among their other obvious strengths, Nidzilla armies mostly don't have to worry about synapse. Many of the problems with the current codex can be traced back to the Shock Troops rule.

But hey, it let them sell a lot of Carnifex kits.

I like the Ideas that Mahu was talking about. Though warriors need a general buff and should retain the ability to be either HQ, Elite, or Fast Attack. Gaunts need to get a slight points reduction. Hormagaunts can be 7 points before biomorphs. When you add things like leaping and other biomorphs it puts them back in the ubergaunt range of 12-14 points. I would also like to see the option for a hive node in Gaunt squads so they can stray a bit ways away from synapse but make it Ld 8 instead of 10 so there is a chance of IB.

Tyranids should be a HtH force but much like the Orks, evolved into a shooting army. I would like to see a biomorph that allows fleet.

But Gaunts won't run away from combat, ever, as long as there is a Synapse Creature in range, surely that is something worth a good few points?

thehod wrote:
Tyranids should be a HtH force but much like the Orks, evolved into a shooting army. I would like to see a biomorph that allows fleet.

Then they shouldn't be less capable in all aspects, have worse weapons and be more expensive. The new Orks are a bitch to deal with.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But Gaunts won't run away from combat, ever, as long as there is a Synapse Creature in range, surely that is something worth a good few points?

Orks get a similar benefit at the right mob size and tend not to lose combats so badly because of their higher WS, T, and overall offensive output. In 5th edition, fearless is least beneficial to those that lack h2h kill power and a significant armor save.

What about making Gaunts WS4 with a 5+ save? All that chitin has got to protect at least as well as IG flak armor. Higher WS should translate to fewer casualties, as will a boosted armor save. And that way you're not boosting Gaunts' S, T or A unrealistically.

Off the top of my head, another approach could be to allow the option of rolling a regular break test on the synapse creature's Ld value instead of taking the fearless casualties. But I'm not sure how often this would really be that beneficial since you're still losing combats by a significant margin. Maybe this synapse fix in combo with the Gaunt changes?

Also, Hormagaunts need to go to A3.

The reason is because they've lost ground vs. the rest of the field, while their points cost (which was always slightly high) hasn't changed. In 3rd edition, their leap rule meant they threw out many more attacks than virtually anything else, since only models in b2b normally got their full attacks. Obviously, h2h rules have changed and their leap rule hasn't changed enough to keep up. So I say just simplify things by ditching the extra inch of engagement range and making them A3 base. That'd return them to what was originally envisioned by Andy C. in the 3rd ed. codex.

Let both tyrants take wings, lift the 0-1 for broodlords, make warriors S and T 5, make lictors better, make gaunts better, make Hormagaunts USEABLE, and then:

Make elite fexes 0-1, so people cant take 8 MC's anymore. Also, make genestealers an elites choice (what, blasphemy!) but you can take one squad for each broodlord and make them troops. So then:

You can still do stealer shock, and do it right this time with 2 blords instead of one and a flyrant (random)

You can still do zillanids with 6 mcs instead of 8 and then have more of an army around it. I really like this idea but with 0-1 restrictions slowly going by the wayside I don't really see it happening

You can do a fast winged or beast army with flyrants, winged warriors, raveners, and hormagaunts

You can mix and match cool things together and make a balanced list that doesn't just get cratered turn 1 and 2.

I don't think guns need toning down or beefing up. Vcannons could pen, but think of how broken a 3 gunfex 2 vc tyrant army would be against most current vehicle builds. We already know crons are going to come out and rape vehicle armies of their worth, so I really can't see nids adding to that trend since they made vehicles better in 5th.

Zoeys are fine, leave them exactly the same. oh and make mines, thropes, and lictors count as 1 KP for the whole unit, not just 1 per model. It sucks giving up 3 kps for 3 thropes.

My 2c
Justin C.

Cap fexes at 0-4. This way players who like mini-fexes can still play lots, but 8 TMC Nidzilla armies go bye-bye, meaning that players will have to buy some other parts of an army, not just 8-broods of vanilla stealers.

Gargoyles need a point reduction and upgrade options.

As it stands, they compare to furies for being useful only for conversions.

Ok first let me say I don't play nids...but i've been playing against my friends nids for 4 years almost.

1) Synapse still should still be the linchpin to this army - makes it unique.

2) Remove the 0-1 thing on broodlords - for those who don't like synapse.

3) Stealers get new rending - power wepons would be too much imho - also mabe 4+ armor to make them live longer? However if they did get power weps - lower brood size and make them eliets unless they run a broodlord to make 1 squad a troops choice per lord?

4) Limit the flex's to 4. Make them do something else other than Nidzilla's

5) Make gaunts of all types including gargolys more along the new orks line points wise and saves wise. However mabe loosing that without number on the gaunts in compensation.

6) For those who beleive revers should be able to assult when deep striking - mabe only 6" instead of 12 would be a fair compromise?

7) Venom cannon - should be alowed to pen - however if it stays assult x (fine now) maybe only allow 1 per monsterous creature (not sure how the flex and hive tyrants wepon choices work with 2 guns - tl or 2 individual) that way you dont have them running 2 per mc and shooting 4-6 times or somthing like that

Anyway these are my non nid player thoughts - i do think Nids need an upgrade. Chew em up, spit them out, run all over em if you need to.

They actually "fixed" the tyranids ability to take 2 separate VC in 4rth by making it so that if you purchased two of the same weopon it became TL.

Then again, allow 8Nidzilla armies. 'Nids are the only army that can't play a Mechanized list (Which is near totaly immune to small arms fire/assaults), so they should get something.

An interesting concept for Nid tank busting could be a bio-lightning cannon something like
RNG 36" Str 7 AP 2 Assault 1 it is somewhat a plasma clone but it could also be used as a spore mine

Mattlov wrote:I still argue that rules for non-Synapse horde only armies should exist.

All you get are gaunts and Hormagaunts. They simply charge the enemy. They cannot hold objectives, table quarters, or anything. No scuttling or outflanking, nothing. The only way the horde army wins is by tabling the opponent.

This would work better for smaller games without vehicles, since they really couldn't kill many of them.

The already made a non-Synapse horde option: Orks.

Drop 180 boyz on the table and charge. Put whatever else you feel like on the table, because the 6 point CC-gods are going to win it for you.

Match up 180 points of boyz (30 base) against 180 points of anything tyranid have that you like. Anything. Give tyranid the charge.

It's not even close--no assault will go past two turns before the 'nids are wiped out. Orks won't lose half their unit, ever.

What is with all the hatred towards the Nidzilla list? Is everybody ranting about nerfing mechanized guard because they can run 9 Russes and all the fixings? No, so people should stop complaining about a Nid list that can have a few troops that won't go down to a quick flamer burst and a CC follow-up.

The way I see things are as follows:

Hive Tyrants, they're fine as they are but I wouldn't mind Warp Field giving a 4++ or even a 5++ invulnerable to fit the with the everything is tougher trend. Before you cry broken, look at all the ways people can give tanks a 4+ save, MC's are nid tanks.

Tyrant guard work just fine as is, no changes needed here.

Broodlord, remove the 0-1 restriction and allow them to be fleet so they can be useful to a stealer squad.

Warriors, I really want to like them, but they just cost too much. I'd like to see them have 5 toughness and a 4+ save or reduced cost.

Lictors, allow the player to choose when they deploy and allow them to assault the turn they come in. This would then represent them laying a cunning ambush.

Stealers either need a base cost decrease or scuttlers and flesh hooks for free. Also, don't make flesh hooks share a slot with anything else.

Guants drop them by a point each base and keep everything else the same, this will allow for some better WoN builds and allow Gaunts to keep players body counts high.

Hormagaunts, maybe give them a rule that makes them stubborn and not fearless, give them an extra attack, and give them a better save on a turn the brood hits over a certain number of times to show them dragging foes down and making them fight back worse.

Rippers, I'd like to see them as strength 2 with rending to show them geting everywhere. Giving them 4 initiative would also make them into a unit that isn't a complete liability.

Raveners need to cost less and maybe cause units to make a morale test when they enter play.

Gargoyles need a plastic kit, but they should also have furious charge to show them dive bombing in when they attack. Then they wouldn't be sop over costed.

Sporemines should be like an orbital strike (in that they shouldn't give KP's), they should all scatter separately, and they should come in groups of five. Then you would have a random rain of death that can come down and kill things.

Zoanthropes are actually fine as they are, especially if you use the better invulnerable save idea from the HT's.

Fex's should have a biomorph that gives fleet and VC's should be at only -1 on the damage chart. As well an option for FnP instead of that useless regenerate would be nice.Then we don't have uber tank killing shooting, but we can do something to a Monlith or a Land Raider.

If those changes are made then they'll be better suited to the new armor spam edition of 40k.