Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Simple. Space Wolf players are the creme of the hobby, and they deserve the finest in army builds to match their indisputable character, their panache, and their good looks.

It's true. Space wolf players are a debonair and cultured people, a cut above lower society.

I believe that's the Chuck method of politely telling someone that they're done talking with them.

Sir I have no idea what you mean.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why are the space wolves so much better in combat then every other marine again? They don't train more. The don't have better equipment. They don't have better tactics. They aren't better equipped. So why do they seem to be heads and shoulders better then the rest? Moving past my annoyance at the fact that they get a giant standalone book at all, what justification do they have to get things like this?

They train from adolescence for there lives fighting kracken and the other living things on fenris

Bjorn the Fellhanded has AV14 on all sides, better stats.

Why? Seriously. Titans don't even have AV14 all around. Why the hell does he?

There is a armor 14 land speeder running around isn't there?

Wolf Guard (in terminator armour) with lightning claws rack up 6 attacks on the charge each. A very broken thing to do (think this ill be omitted from the final codex) is put them with Ragnar Blackmane, who gives them Fleet of foot and rending, though dont' quote me on rending.

So space wolf honor guard are so much better because... They are grey?

They are trained in hand to hand combat from the time they can walk so yes they would be better.

Runic weapons I believe function as relic blades, but with something else quite snazzy.

It's good to know that space wolves work like orks. All you need to do is replace red goes fast with grey kills better.

You are beginning to understand space wolves > than all the rest.

Shuma, stop trolling already.

Demogerg wrote:Shuma, stop trolling already.

I will as soon as games workshop stops trolling its fanbase every time it leaks space wolf info.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why are the space wolves so much better in combat then every other marine again? They don't train more. The don't have better equipment. They don't have better tactics. They aren't better equipped. So why do they seem to be heads and shoulders better then the rest? Moving past my annoyance at the fact that they get a giant standalone book at all, what justification do they have to get things like this?

A. They have different gene-seed to the other space marine chapters. Their gene-seed comes from a gigantic feral wolf man who once tore a titan to pieces with his bare hands it wouldn't be a stretch to say that space wolves have a greater natural propensity for dirty hand to hand fighting because of this.

B. They don't train more, they train differently. Regular tactical marines are trained initially to scout, recon, do behind enemy lines actions and wield a wide manner of heavy, assault and regular weapons they then graduate to a full tactical marine here they learn how to operate at long, mid and short range engagements with a wide variety of assault, heavy and regular weapons.

In contrast grey hunters start out being trained only to get to grips with the enemy as quickly as possible and only with basic weaponry and specialist close combat weapons. Only once they've calmed down a bit are they trained in a more tactical role and start using bolters, assault weapons, etc but they are never trained for a long range engagement role. furthermore regular tac marines can switch between being a tac marine, a devastator or an assault marine as the missions demands. Grey Hunters are always Grey Hunters

put more simply more time spent focusing on cc training = better at cc

C. They are better equipped. With one failed exception Space Wolves never ceased being a legion and thus never loaned out any of their relics or older equipment, thus they have more of it to hand than your average chapter.

All solid backstory reasons why space wolves would be better in cc than blue marines.

Why do they deserve their own book? Well leaving aside the fact that they can't be accurately re-created using the current marine codex (because you don't care about that perfectly legitimate argument) it's cecause they have a great backstory and are historically one of the most popular armies. During 2nd and 3rd they were easily one of the most popular armies and during 3rd the space wolf grey hunter and blood claw plastic box sets were one of if not the best selling products in GW's model line. Partly this was because many non-space wolf players got them for extra bits (mmmm power fists and plastic meltaguns) but nonetheless wolves used to = popular. Lack of attention and a big hit in power during 4th ed caused their star to wane and now GW hopes that with a new book they can start selling massive amounts of space wolf models now.

There are sound business reasons to give wolves their own book, there are also gameplay reasons and frankly they have cool fluff. Who doesn't want gw to publish more cool fluff?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Bjorn the Fellhanded has AV14 on all sides, better stats.

Why? Seriously. Titans don't even have AV14 all around. Why the hell does he?

He's one of the oldest living beings in the universe, bar the daemon primarchs and c'tan. Maybe the wolves think he warrants protecting. I agree it is a little overkill but IMHO Titans should have AV14 all round and it isn't Phil Kelly's fault they don't.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Wolf Guard (in terminator armour) with lightning claws rack up 6 attacks on the charge each. A very broken thing to do (think this ill be omitted from the final codex) is put them with Ragnar Blackmane, who gives them Fleet of foot and rending, though dont' quote me on rending.

So space wolf honor guard are so much better because... They are grey?

I agree that is a bit silly too but you're just being facetious. You know there are far more differences between wolf guard and honour guard than colour.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Runic weapons I believe function as relic blades, but with something else quite snazzy.

It's good to know that space wolves work like orks. All you need to do is replace red goes fast with grey kills better.

Now you're getting it Yeah this particular rumour is probably wrong.

Shuma, if you want to open a thread in Dakka discussions, proposed rules or the fluff forum about how you think Space Wolves shouldn't be any better than other marines that would be fine, but please don't derail this thread any further.

anticitizen013 wrote:Wolf Guard Terminator with Lightning Claws has 6 attacks on the charge...

That's as much as a Khorne LORD with Lightning Claws has on the charge. Sigh... clearly I'm going to have a make a SW army now.

My dear Sir, the same amount of attacks can be gained on the by "plain" CSM Termies if you pay to upgrade them all to Aspiring Champions, give them a pair of LC, and the MoK.


I am excited by this because it means now I can actually play the first army I wanted to play, I'll actually be able to find the Codex and the Wolf models wont have the slowed bolt pistols, that is if they get new models.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why are the space wolves so much better in combat then every other marine again? They don't train more. The don't have better equipment. They don't have better tactics. They aren't better equipped. So why do they seem to be heads and shoulders better then the rest? Moving past my annoyance at the fact that they get a giant standalone book at all, what justification do they have to get things like this?

The in-game answer to this is the same as the answer to every difficult question about Space Marine chapters: It's Something To Do With The Geneseed.

The real life answer is probably due to sentiment and nostalgia on the part of the GW staff. Space Wolves were the main chapter profiled in the original Rogue Trader book, after all.

Does the OP on warseer have any credibility with rumors? If it was Brimstone, I wouldn't like the rumors any better, but I would assume they're spot on.

Warthur wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The real life answer is probably due to sentiment and nostalgia on the part of the GW staff. Space Wolves were the main chapter profiled in the original Rogue Trader book, after all.

You're thinking of the Crimson Fists, methinks. That said, the Space Wolves do have a longstanding and extensive backstory that deserves plenty of attention.

dietrich wrote:Does the OP on warseer have any credibility with rumors? If it was Brimstone, I wouldn't like the rumors any better, but I would assume they're spot on.

Yes he does have some. He broke the rumors on Planetary Empires last year; he was ridiculed for it but has since been vindicated as he was 100 percent correct on his PE rumors.

Actually, the CF are featured in RT, but the Wolves get some love as well in the Astartes section, including a cutaway of the Fang which does not resemble the Fang as it has been known since 1994. As for the rumors, shad stated they were based on playtesting, so I wouldn't start making any army list yet. Clearly SW are leaning towards herohammer a bit. Considering the Troops requirement in 5th, they will have their issues. Cheers for rumors, though.

dienekes96 wrote:As for the rumors, shad stated they were based on playtesting, so I wouldn't start making any army list yet. Clearly SW are leaning towards herohammer a bit. Considering the Troops requirement in 5th, they will have their issues. Cheers for rumors, though.

Ah yes, common sense is alive an well, thanks for the thoughtful post!

Wasn't the Space Wolves codex the first one done in 2nd ed? At the least it was the first Marine codex.

Someone back me up.

Ozymandias wrote:Wasn't the Space Wolves codex the first one done in 2nd ed? At the least it was the first Marine codex.

Someone back me up.

yes it was the first marine codex for 2nd Ed.

Warthur wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Why are the space wolves so much better in combat then every other marine again? They don't train more. The don't have better equipment. They don't have better tactics. They aren't better equipped. So why do they seem to be heads and shoulders better then the rest? Moving past my annoyance at the fact that they get a giant standalone book at all, what justification do they have to get things like this?

The in-game answer to this is the same as the answer to every difficult question about Space Marine chapters: It's Something To Do With The Geneseed.

The real life answer is probably due to sentiment and nostalgia on the part of the GW staff. Space Wolves were the main chapter profiled in the original Rogue Trader book, after all.

2nd Rogue Trader book right ? Big Buddha style statute and a wolf campaign in yes ?

I believe actually that this was also the first appearence of the "Souldrinkers", at the time them being an elite cc unit of the very codex heavy White Scars.

Demonic empowerment and guiding by the galactic god of slaughter? Theres a lot more to it then just "They're angrier!". Khorne has a pretty big hand in their efforts.

And there is a lot more it than the simple fact that they are Bluish Grey. If you refuse to acknowledge a paralell argument to the one you used then stop wasting our time and go hide under a different bridge.

These rumours look pretty cool, though I hope they don't over power the wolves too much. I don't want them so powerful that GW decides to up the price ten dollars for no other reason.

Heres hoping for a kickass upgrade sprue!

And there is a lot more it than the simple fact that they are Bluish Grey. If you refuse to acknowledge a paralell argument to the one you used then stop wasting our time and go hide under a different bridge.

The parallel argument of "they train more" is bunk though. They may train in combat more than some chapters, but to the point where they should be equal to the world eaters, the original insane berserker chapter that was then empowered by a god to be even better at it. That and many of them are still around from the heresy. If they train in combat so much then what do they lose?

Are they BS 3? I doubt it.
Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
Are they less technologically inclined? Maybe, but if they get the russ tank back then that will hardly matter.

If they train so much more in combat where are all the drawbacks? Why are they just as good as every other chapter at everything else? They don't have extra time to train. They don't have a time chamber and they aren't working at 300 times earths gravity. There is no realistic fluff argument for why they are so much better at combat then every other close combat inclined chapter in the imperium.

ShumaGorath wrote:Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
Are they less technologically inclined? Maybe, but if they get the russ tank back then that will hardly matter.

Actually, they do get less ranged weaponry. Neither of their Troops choices have any access to Heavy Weapons, at all. Long Fangs allow them to get some heavy weapons, but these squads are very easily killed, especially if you charge the puny 5-man squad.

Well, assuming they keep some of the old "limiting" aspects, like how Space Wolf Terminators refuse to teleport, Space Wolves can be given some real disadvantages.

If they do get the Leman Russ, which I really hope they don't, they'll either be limited to the ridiculously useless Leman Russ Exterminator, or the choice will be 0-1. Maybe both.

I will agree that charging Wolf Guard with a pair of Lightning Claws getting 6 Attacks each is pretty friggin' ridiculous. I really hope it's actually 4 or 5 (2 or 3 base), and that they pay a corresponding cost for it, similar to what Chaos has to.

Space Wolves shouldn't out close-combat Khorne!

Why are the space wolves so much better in combat then every other marine again? They don't train more. The don't have better equipment. They don't have better tactics. They aren't better equipped. So why do they seem to be heads and shoulders better then the rest? Moving past my annoyance at the fact that they get a giant standalone book at all, what justification do they have to get things like this?

Ok. At the risk of you throwing so much hatred at me for saying fluff, generally playing wolves etc, Ill try and explain.
1) Fenris is very rough. So's Baal, so are most world the astartes recruit from. But, every so often, the islands that the native fenrisians live on will break up in the heat and cold of the world. Then what will happen is that the tribes pack up, and will fight fierce battles for the remaining land. Natural selection ensures only the best warriors live on to be chosen. Hell, the wolf priests only choose the fiercest warriors from each battle , whether alive or an inch from death due to their berserkness.
2) Its a requirement to weild close combat weapons. No bows for Fenrisians. Slings, spears, harpoons, axes, but not bows. The child gift is the axe, and those who do not grip it are slain. Thus they acquire a proficiency they maintain and enhance as they turn to astartes.
3) The landscape is full of monsters and beasts that will more than likely kill you if you are not strong and fierce. So fenrisian wolves, trolls, ice bears etc.
4) Its part of the background. The Wolves fight in the way that Russ dictates, like BA's fight like Sanguinius wanted, IF's fight like Dorn wanted, Ultra's follow the codex rigidly, like Guilliman intended. For the Wolves, that means close combat, because Russ himself taught the first Wolves to favour combat over shooting. This has just passed down, so the best techniques have been distilled, and they train more in use of sword and axe.
5) The canis helix has a different effect to the normal zygotes.While in normal marines, it encourages growth of the marine and his organs, in wolves it also instills a berserkers rage, strength and lust for battle. Like DC, the wolves let loose the berserker rage, but are not absorbed by it. Its a constant struggle to hold back the wolf within.
6) Normal marines are more rounded. Their training is more varied than the wolves. We arent all kinds of "Im a custode to your marine", but our training is based more around close combat firefights and combat itself in BC and GH packs compared to a tactical marine. You get heavy weapons for that reason; we give ours to our old, venerable warriors, partly as they know how to use them best, but heavy weapons don't favour our method of advance and get up close. Your guys are more jacks of all trades.
7) Plentiful bar fights make excellent warriors

Why? Seriously. Titans don't even have AV14 all around. Why the hell does he?

Codex Creep.There, I said it. Or, failing that, he has technology that predates a fair few of the titans in the imperium of man.

Wolf Guard (in terminator armour) with lightning claws rack up 6 attacks on the charge each. A very broken thing to do (think this ill be omitted from the final codex) is put them with Ragnar Blackmane, who gives them Fleet of foot and rending, though dont' quote me on rending.

So space wolf honor guard are so much better because... They are grey?

Because we pay a stupid amount of points for a 1 wounds character. I pay around 54 points for a tricked out WG in TDA now, how do you think I feel when he dies to a space marine captain wielding a relic blade? Or failing that, hows about the Honour guard champion with stupid initiative and a relic blade as well? Whats the point in a 60 point model that can be slain like that? Hell, a 5 man squad= 300 points versus a 200 point 5 man TH/SS termie squad.... thats a cheap captain with relic blade there. How many WGTDA die from him I wonder?

Thats all kinds of good now isnt it....

It's good to know that space wolves work like orks. All you need to do is replace red goes fast with grey kills better.

Thats probably the best comparison. Lots of attacks, but less of the bodies. Thats the game. Don't Black Templars work the same, using mass charges of warriors to destroy the enemy?

Ill be brutally honest. I can accept your view that we don't deserve a seperate dex, because thats your view. Thats your entitlement. But to be honest, there is no need to use an insulting tone, just because you don't like it. I would not dream of going into a BT thread if they got an update, and say "OMG YOU DON'T DERSERVE THE NEW CODEXEZ!" because thats just plain rude. Id discuss rumours, or if I had an opinion they didnt deserve one, make that point, then go with a polite farewell.

On the topic, I am very much of the opinion that some of this is just plain fanciful. 50 points for TDA for SC's? seems OTT for me. I dunno. Ill wait till the dex is out and see.

ShumaGorath wrote:

And there is a lot more it than the simple fact that they are Bluish Grey. If you refuse to acknowledge a paralell argument to the one you used then stop wasting our time and go hide under a different bridge.

The parallel argument of "they train more" is bunk though. They may train in combat more than some chapters, but to the point where they should be equal to the world eaters, the original insane berserker chapter that was then empowered by a god to be even better at it. That and many of them are still around from the heresy. If they train in combat so much then what do they lose?

Are they BS 3? I doubt it.
Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
Are they less technologically inclined? Maybe, but if they get the russ tank back then that will hardly matter.

If they train so much more in combat where are all the drawbacks? Why are they just as good as every other chapter at everything else? They don't have extra time to train. They don't have a time chamber and they aren't working at 300 times earths gravity. There is no realistic fluff argument for why they are so much better at combat then every other close combat inclined chapter in the imperium.

Okay lets try and do this slowly for those of us with poor reading comprehension.

Equal to the world eaters? This is a blatant straw man. Have you seen the stats for world eaters and the stats for grey hunters? Berzerkers are rocking ws5, 2 attacks base, fearless and furious charge with 2 cc weapons. Grey Hunters are ws 4, 1 attack base with 2 cc weapons and counter charge. In what world is that equal to the world eaters?

Unless you mean the rumoured wolf guard because honestly I do think that seems a little silly.


And the argument for "why are grey hunters better in cc than most chapters" is not JUST they train more. Lets break it down into a series of bullet points for you

1. The recruits are drawn from an extremely violent planet where anyone who isn't proficient in hand to hand combat dies before they reach the age of 12.

2. They have gene-seed from a giant berserker wolf man which gives them enhanced combat skills (you never seem to address the gene-seed argument which is the single strongest argument for why sw are better in cc, it's because russ was)

3. They don't train MORE in total they train DIFFERENTLY.

a tactical marine is at the same time properly trained to be a tac marine, an assault marine and a devastator marine. He has to prep and train for 3 very different roles so that he can switch to the best tactical option when the time comes.

A Grey Hunter is ONLY trained to be a grey hunter. This is why they are slightly better at the close range tactical role but get NO heavy weapons training and why are assault marines are crappy and have ws/bs 3.

To be honest I'm starting to think you have never even read the space wolf codex because you state that they don't get less long ranged weaponry. Wolves DO get less long ranged weaponry.

As for being better at cc but the same at everything else? WE don't teleport, have nigh on useless devvy equivalents, no heavy weapons in our tac equivalents, no ironclad, no landspeeder storm, no sternguard, no honour guard, no vanguard, no company command squad, no signum wielding devvies, no servitors, no thunderfire cannon, no scout bikers, no combat tactics.




In fact lets look at the exact differences between a grey hunter pack and a tactical marine pack as it currently stands and see if there isn't an OBVIOUS fluff justification for each one

GH vs Tac Squad

GH gets counter attack - tac squad gets combat tactics reason = different training

GH gets a bolter and cc weapon - tac squad gets a bolter, bolt pistol and grenades reason = different weapons training, gh are more focused on specifically a tactical role

GH get option for plasma pistol, power weapons and power fist - tac squad gets option for heavy weapon reason = space wolves are still a legion and have more of their original equipment to use. They do not use heavy weapons because of a different tactical and organisational structure

GH get no matter the odds reason = gene-seed

So, IOW, if a Marine Chapter recruited from Catachan, they'd totally kick a Space Wolf's ass?

BDJV wrote:

dietrich wrote:Does the OP on warseer have any credibility with rumors? If it was Brimstone, I wouldn't like the rumors any better, but I would assume they're spot on.

Yes he does have some. He broke the rumors on Planetary Empires last year; he was ridiculed for it but has since been vindicated as he was 100 percent correct on his PE rumors.

I'm a little sad about some of the rumors, but until you see the whole picture of a codex, it's hard to know what it all means. Losing TH/SS would be bad, but if it's replaced by Relic Blade/SS on basic terminators - well, I wouldn't complain!

As to the 'are SWs different enough to deserve their own codex?' front.

SWs are clearly one of the most divergents SM chapters. SMs make money. GW will make a SW codex, they're an established part of the fluff. Now, if GW would take the efforts going into a SW codex and redirect it into Lost and the Damned, Genestealer Cults, etc. - I'd happily play SWs as Grey Marines (provided that DA were just Green Marines, BA are Red Marines, and BTs are Black and White Marines). But, all the energy going into SWs wouldn't be enough to create a new codex, and it wouldn't be as profitable for GW either. Why? Because all the tanks and a lot of the model range is pre-existing, so it's less effort (same codex effort, less new model development) and it will sell very well, making GW lots of money. GW is a business, if they don't make money, they close their doors. To me, this is like complaining about FLGS selling pokemon cards. I'm not crazy about having 8-year olds running around the FLGS playing pokemon, but if it makes the store money and helps to keep them afloat, it's better than not having the kids running around and having the FLGS close.

Allright, enough ShumaGorath-bashing . Back to the topic at hand.

Bloke called McBain over on the Warseer version of this thread has said the new SW Codex will be available at GD UK this year; so far nothing really new (or at least, nothing I haven't heard before).
He also said that FW will be selling a LE SW Venerable Dread and a LE SW Wolf Lord at that event . He's also let slip that there will be a "regular" SW Ven Dread out later on. I don't know how reliable he is as a rumour source (I don't usually pay much attention to that kind of thing), but it sounds plausible enough to me.

An early Codex itself would not be enough to draw me there from the Netherlands, but these two models just might ...

ShumaGorath wrote:
Are they BS 3? I doubt it.
Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
Are they less technologically inclined? Maybe, but if they get the russ tank back then that will hardly matter.

1. See: Codex Space Wolves, Blood Claws entry, BS 3. argument fail
2. See: Codex Space Wolves, Grey Hunter entry, no heavy weapons options. argument fail
3. See: Codex Space Wolves, special rules, will not teleport, no land speeder storms, more expensive jump pack troops. argument fail

your arguments are full of fail

please respond with valid arguments for future discussion.


*edited for grammer*

@Shumagorath

You know, it's weird, but I actually think you're a smart guy and a veteran player who could give good advice. Unfortunately, you don't engage in DEBATE, just in whining and being kind of a jerk in every topic I see you in. If you talked (and I know that it's the interwebs and "tone" can't translate as well as speaking) with a much nicer or at least a neutral tone, people might take you seriously. Maybe say things like: "You're kind of right about this point, but I believe that ______________ ". I don't mean you need to conform to others points of view, just don't be such a a**hole about it OK?

Hey BD, I saw the same thread at Warseer. Do you think they'll have some previews of the new codex by then?

JohnHwangDD wrote:So, IOW, if a Marine Chapter recruited from Catachan, they'd totally kick a Space Wolf's ass?

Depends on what geneseed they have implanted in them.

1. See: Codex Space Wolves, Blood Claws entry, BS 3. argument fail

Blood claws are scout equivalents aren't they? Scouts have BS 3 also. They are the same. No wait they aren't because space wolf scouts are still bs4 (though they'll probably lose that in the new book). Though I'll give this one too you. Your close combat initiate squad with no ranged weaponry is bad at shooting. Oh curses, that must impact the game so much.

2. See: Codex Space Wolves, Grey Hunter entry, no heavy weapons options. argument fail

Yes, because tactical squads are the heart of the ranged punch of a marine force. To make up for no heavy weaponry you get true grit, which once upon a time made them better line squads then marines since they could do the ranged duty and pull close combat like assault marines. That and getting three plasma pistols per squad is nice for ranged too.

Lets not forget your devastator squad with the built in ability to split fire too. Making them more skilled ranged troops.

Oh and your terminators getting 4 assault canons per squad.

And your leman russ battle tank.

3. See: Codex Space Wolves, special rules, will not teleport, no land speeder storms, more expensive jump pack troops. argument fail

You don't get the land speeder storm because it didn't exist until the new marine codex. Thats hardly good reasoning. You get every other speeder variant. As for the jump troops, they get 4 attacks on the charge rather than 3. But yes, they are more expensive. This one I found odd because jump troops aren't high tech.


Space wolves don't really lack in any of the areas I've mentioned. They have most of what other forces have as well as more skilled devastators and more shooty terminators. They lack line squad heavy weapons, but make up for it in almost every other area. They shouldn't have scouts at all if they spent their entire careers training for combat.

You know, it's weird, but I actually think you're a smart guy and a veteran player who could give good advice. Unfortunately, you don't engage in DEBATE, just in whining and being kind of a jerk in every topic I see you in. If you talked (and I know that it's the interwebs and "tone" can't translate as well as speaking) with a much nicer or at least a neutral tone, people might take you seriously. Maybe say things like: "You're kind of right about this point, but I believe that ______________ ". I don't mean you need to conform to others points of view, just don't be such a a**hole about it OK?

Given that I'm debating against every wolf player on this forum its hard to keep it civil. Things like the landraider dreadnaut and veteran troops with 6 attacks on the assault don't help my demeanor either. After the guard codex I fear the codex creep here is basically going to create an army of supermarines that beat normal ones in every manner. No rumor so far has proven me wrong. The fact that they are getting a full sized codex likely means that they will be getting a fairly substantial number of new units as well to fill the space.

My opinion here is dissapointment. I think that the wolves should have gotten a new half codex with slightly superior assault troops, powerful characters, and poor ranged abilty. What these rumors have stated is that they are getting a full codex with better than berserkers assault troops and I'm still waiting for a rumor that shows them losing any ranged ability.

I don't like what I'm hearing and just like with the guard rumors I'm debating against the fanbois that refuse to acknowledge when things seem broken or overpowered because "its how it should be".

Hmm, wonder how much it will cost. SM was the last 40k codex right? Guard have not been released yet last I heard, and I was wondering whether or not the new codexes will keep the massiveness of the SM one and the same price.