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augfubuoy wrote:Hey BD, I saw the same thread at Warseer. Do you think they'll have some previews of the new codex by then?

I should hope so. By then the Codex will be right around the corner - Right now it's still, what? 4 1/2 months away at minimum.
Right, back to your regularly scheduled programming of ShumaGorath vs. everyone .

ShumaGorath wrote:Blood claws are scout equivalents aren't they? Scouts have BS 3 also. They are the same. No wait they aren't because space wolf scouts are still bs4 (though they'll probably lose that in the new book). Though I'll give this one too you. Your close combat initiate squad with no ranged weaponry is bad at shooting. Oh curses, that must impact the game so much.

Err, yes. Except that when the SW Codex was printed, regular scouts actually had weapon and ballistic skill 4. And SW scouts have Bs 4 because they're *not* new initiates, like SM scouts; they're seasoned veteran warriors equal in skill to a Marine. Their personal inclinations and character suits them better to a scout role (they tend to be loners, see).
(And actually, the WS and BS 3 does tend to impact games.)

ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, because tactical squads are the heart of the ranged punch of a marine force. To make up for no heavy weaponry you get true grit, which once upon a time made them better line squads then marines since they could do the ranged duty and pull close combat like assault marines. That and getting three plasma pistols per squad is nice for ranged too.

Correct. No heavy weapons, and true grit . And for a 20% increase in cost, I do think they're allowed to be better at something, at least. And you don't get 3 plasma pistols, you get a max of 2 and one plasmagun (or meltagun, or flamer). All of which you have to pay for. Not to mention that *all* of the weapon SW troop choices get require you to get within 12" of an enemy to be used to their best effect. Yeah, that sure sounds like a ranged force to me.
Oooh, and the long fangs. Split fire. Yeah, and for that ability you pay 108 points for 5 models that die just as easily as a regular marine before you choose weapons. The guy that gives the unit this ability is actually the only model in the squad that can be taken away as a casualty before you start removing heavy weapons. They're so worth taking. [/sarcasm]
I'll grant you the Wolf guard's greater number of termie heavy weapons - then again, you have to take 10 of them to get that many assault cannons. Such a squad (equipped otherwise identical to a marine squad, so PF for everyone, and stormbolters for everyone not using a heavy weapon), would set you back 588 points, excluding the character you need them to guard. How much would a 10-man marine terminator squad with 4 asscannons (I'm more of a Cyclone launcher fan, myself) cost, exactly?
At a more normal squad size (4-6 Wolf Guard), you get... 2 heavy weapons. That's such an increase over the amount regular termies got when the codex was written. Oh wait, no it wasn't.
Though I will say that a WG Deathstar unit with SW-unique upgrades (runic charms) are easily a match for the worst other armies can reasonably dish out - including Nob bikerz and seercouncils - at the cost of about a quarter of your army.

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

Also, the reason you're not hearing anything about losing ranged power, is because rumours, for the most part, tend to be about what *is* in the Codex, not what isn't. So far, I've heard no reliable rumours that the LRE is still there, and I'm hedging my bets on the 6A WG and stuff, too.
They're rumours. The Codex is still 4 1/2 months away, at minimum. So they're early rumours. So until we get confirmation/more rumours, chill. It ain't the end of the world (yet).

augfubuoy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:So, IOW, if a Marine Chapter recruited from Catachan, they'd totally kick a Space Wolf's ass?

Depends on what geneseed they have implanted in them.

OK, that's fair.

I find the various death world Fluff to be more than a little hokey, so whenever I read that kind of stuff, my eyes start rolling back in my head...

It's all good.

Demogerg wrote:
1. See: Codex Space Wolves, Blood Claws entry, BS 3. argument fail
2. See: Codex Space Wolves, Grey Hunter entry, no heavy weapons options. argument fail
3. See: Codex Space Wolves, special rules, will not teleport, no land speeder storms, more expensive jump pack troops. argument fail

your arguments are full of fail

please respond with valid arguments for future discussion.

Ummm. We're not talking about the current codex. We're talking about the rumored codex, and its apparent (WG w/6 attacks) rumors. The discussion is about the proposed codex versus the current SM codex. Obviously, no one thinks the current wolf dex is overpowered.

I'd keep that in mind before throwing around fails.

Personally, I don't buy fluff rationales for codex rules. Anyone can make the argument their geneseed/training/primarch/deathworld is the best/worst/creates the best warriors/etc. GW would increase the power level of the wolf codex to sell models. Period. End of discussion.

Considering the relative success of Apoc, GW treading water with regard to sales/profit currently, and the reshuffle to launch Planetsrike and Wolves (more marines), my money is on them being better than DA/BA/and SM, so that they'll sell a bucket-load of models.

Like others have said, we'll have to see cost, whats in, and what's out before getting our panties in a bunch.

Ratbarf wrote:Hmm, wonder how much it will cost. SM was the last 40k codex right? Guard have not been released yet last I heard, and I was wondering whether or not the new codexes will keep the massiveness of the SM one and the same price.

Guard codex has 104 pages, the marine codex 144.

Obviously the marines are exception to the page count and pricing.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Blood claws are scout equivalents aren't they?

No, they do not infiltrate, they are Marines. They are wild close combat marines who are too reckless to shoot well or keep themselves protected in close combat. Space Wolves start in a Blood Claw pack, as Space Marines start in a Scout squad, that is the only similarity

Scouts have BS 3 also. They are the same. No wait they aren't because space wolf scouts are still bs4 (though they'll probably lose that in the new book). Though I'll give this one too you. Your close combat initiate squad with no ranged weaponry is bad at shooting. Oh curses, that must impact the game so much.

Yes, because tactical squads are the heart of the ranged punch of a marine force. To make up for no heavy weaponry you get true grit, which once upon a time made them better line squads then marines since they could do the ranged duty and pull close combat like assault marines. That and getting three plasma pistols per squad is nice for ranged too.

So, shooting bolt pistols, plasma pistols, melta guns, plasma guns, etc from a Blood Claw pack does not count as ranged because they are BS3, but when its from a Grey Hunter pack its all of a sudden "nice ranged" I think you are wrong here.

Lets not forget your devastator squad with the built in ability to split fire too. Making them more skilled ranged troops.

you SHOULD forget the "devastator" squad, because in order for them to be anywhere near any kind of effectiveness 400+ points need to be spent to give them some albative wounds in the form of Wolf Guad Battle Leaders with Fenrisian Wolf upgrades.

Oh and your terminators getting 4 assault canons per squad.
its 1 heavy weapon per 3 wolf guard, and the squad size max is 9, in order to get 4 you need to attatch another character to the unit, at this point we are looking at 500+ points, im sorry if you also think this is at all effective.

And your leman russ battle tank.
Fair enough, we get a tank that normal marines dont get. seems Fluffy, doesnt it?

Also, your arguement here is not what we can spend gobloads of points to get some ranged firepower, it was Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
and we do get less, how many heavy weapons can a marine player get with 900+ points vs a space wolf player getting 8.

You don't get the land speeder storm because it didn't exist until the new marine codex. Thats hardly good reasoning.

how is that hardly good reasoning? we havn't had a LOT of things seeing as our codex came out how many years ago? oh yea 9.

You get every other speeder variant.

and all the Predator varients, and all the Land Raider varients, etc. they are still part of the Imperium, and they are still "Space Marines"

As for the jump troops, they get 4 attacks on the charge rather than 3. But yes, they are more expensive.

But they are WS3 BS3, and still more expensive

This one I found odd because jump troops aren't high tech.

That depends on what fluff you are looking at, Jump pack technology was not as settled in the 31st millenia as it is in the 41st, and Space Wolves pay more for it because it is "not as Russ intended"

Space wolves don't really lack in any of the areas I've mentioned. They have most of what other forces have as well as more skilled devastators

More skilled in that they can split fire, Vanilla marines get to use the signum, they cost less, and get albative wounds, Long Fangs are a horrible unit choice.

and more shooty terminators.

Space Wolf terminators are more individually customizable, and a player may choose to make them more shooty. this is an effect of an old codex that relies on a wargear page, when they update the codex, do you think this will still be valid?

They lack line squad heavy weapons, but make up for it in almost every other area.

And it costs us more points to do so.

They shouldn't have scouts at all if they spent their entire careers training for combat.

How does this logic hold any weight at all? Please tell me. Just because Chapters A, B, and C all recruit into scouts directly does not mean that Chapter D cant have scouts be veteren units.


Given that I'm debating against every wolf player on this forum its hard to keep it civil. Things like the landraider dreadnaut and veteran troops with 6 attacks on the assault don't help my demeanor either. After the guard codex I fear the codex creep here is basically going to create an army of supermarines that beat normal ones in every manner. No rumor so far has proven me wrong. The fact that they are getting a full sized codex likely means that they will be getting a fairly substantial number of new units as well to fill the space. My opinion here is dissapointment. I think that the wolves should have gotten a new half codex with slightly superior assault troops, powerful characters, and poor ranged abilty. What these rumors have stated is that they are getting a full codex with better than berserkers assault troops and I'm still waiting for a rumor that shows them losing any ranged ability.

And I agree with you partially here. If the rumors in this thread are true I will be a sad panda. Space Wolves do need to be inferior to normal marines in many aspects, however, all of the current "half codexes" of divergent chapters are bad, they are terribad. I hope GW redoes all the chapters with their own full codexes. Also you are going about this discussion in such a way as to force all the Space Wolf players to single you out as a devils advocate who needs to be shot down.

Also, Codex Creep is an intelligent business strategy that companies like Wizards of the Coast and Blizzard Entertainment have been abusing for years, Each succesive release needs to be slightly better than the previous- it keeps players in the game spending money. it is going to happen, there is no way to stop it, we all just need to sit back and let each army have their time in the spotlight.

There is a difference between discussing something, voiceing your opinion, and belittleing other players army choice. You have not shown that you understand this difference

I don't like what I'm hearing and just like with the guard rumors I'm debating against the fanbois that refuse to acknowledge when things seem broken or overpowered because "its how it should be".

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

I don't mind more powerful units costing more. I don't think the space wolves are currently overpowered. What I want to know is why they cost so much more, because I don't believe that they should. They should be less expensive and less powerful then they currently are to fall in line with their deviant nature of training. They are marines that specialize in close combat, not ultrageneseed supermen who should be twice the point to make up for their increased capabilities. They should cost the same, be better in combat, and worse at range. The old codex and these new rumors seem to imply that they will be more expensive, better at close combat, and the same at range. Which in essence belittles other marine armies for being inferior.

Oooh, and the long fangs. Split fire. Yeah, and for that ability you pay 108 points for 5 models that die just as easily as a regular marine before you choose weapons. The guy that gives the unit this ability is actually the only model in the squad that can be taken away as a casualty before you start removing heavy weapons. They're so worth taking. [/sarcasm]
I'll grant you the Wolf guard's greater number of termie heavy weapons - then again, you have to take 10 of them to get that many assault cannons. Such a squad (equipped otherwise identical to a marine squad, so PF for everyone, and stormbolters for everyone not using a heavy weapon), would set you back 588 points, excluding the character you need them to guard. How much would a 10-man marine terminator squad with 4 asscannons (I'm more of a Cyclone launcher fan, myself) cost, exactly?
At a more normal squad size (4-6 Wolf Guard), you get... 2 heavy weapons. That's such an increase over the amount regular termies got when the codex was written. Oh wait, no it wasn't.
Though I will say that a WG Deathstar unit with SW-unique upgrades (runic charms) are easily a match for the worst other armies can reasonably dish out - including Nob bikerz and seercouncils - at the cost of about a quarter of your army.

These are all good justifications for why the army itself doesn't really do ranged that well. And it all hinges on the fact that the ranged units are overpriced, not bad. Not worse at their job. Not less skilled as they should be given their lack of focus in that area.

What I am debating is whether they should be more expensive and more skilled, not whether they are currently worth it in their current form.

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

Because they have one good build, difficult to find and bad models, and a codex that isn't on store shelves anymore with half the unit selection of the normal book. They used to be a powerdex and have suffered in the two revisions of the game since then. That doesn't change the fact that even if largely vulnerable and overcosted much of their book shows them to be superior to regular marines in every facet, which doesn't sit well with me because they shouldn't be.

Also, the reason you're not hearing anything about losing ranged power, is because rumours, for the most part, tend to be about what *is* in the Codex, not what isn't. So far, I've heard no reliable rumours that the LRE is still there, and I'm hedging my bets on the 6A WG and stuff, too.
They're rumours. The Codex is still 4 1/2 months away, at minimum. So they're early rumours. So until we get confirmation/more rumours, chill. It ain't the end of the world (yet).

True, and this should be a much more calm discussion. I made some snarkey comments about questionable and rather extreme rumors and as I said before, every wolf player here jumped on it like I stabbed their dog. I would be happy to discuss the implications and the design choices, rather than a "my army is better" geneseed discussion and a debate on whether the old codex is still viable.

Ok Shuma, I've avoided this debate for a good reason - up until recently it's basically been a flame war. Since it seems to have calmed down a bit I'll offer my input.

Ok, WG with 6 Attacks. Seems overpowered, but compare it to the Honour Guard in C:SM - I can get 5 with them on the Charge quite happily. And they can all have Relic Blades. And a 2+ Save.

So, if we take Wolf Guard to be renamed Honour Guard, give them the LC's and a Chapter Banner (or equivilant) then that's basically the same, but ours get TDA instead of Artificer Armour. Now, Kantor has an ability to give all units +1A - but does not stack with the Chapter Banner. Now, assume there is a SW IC with the ability to give +1A regardless - there is your 6. I would full expect it to be over 600pts for this unit. Now, do you really think that this unit is in any way more fearsome than a Nobz Bikers unit or a Seer Doom Eldrad Council (of Doom)?

Now, Bjorn. Firstly, there has been an AV 14 Raider and an AV 14 Land Speeder running around for a while. I wouldn't expect him to have AV 14 all round, and 14/13/11 or 10 would be fairest, with a price tag of 250/300pts depending on Special Rules. Powerful, but a Melta Weapon or clever tactics can still waste him. However, if you want to argue fluff - remember Bjorn was old when Abbadon and Kharn were young. He fought during the Heresy, led the Wolves afterwards and is the only Marine I can think of bar Brother Captain Aurellian of the Grey Knights who has landed a significant blow against a Daemon Primarch. So his skill and power and not in question. Furthermore, he is the oldest of the Dreadnoughts, and Old = More Powerful. So, if it fits the Fluff and has precedent in game terms, what exactly is your arguement?

Lastly, this issue of "the Wolves shouldn't be harder in CC than anyone else." Catachan was mentioned - now IIRC the main killers on Catachan are the flora, not the fauna. Sure Toads and Devils get a few, but it's mostly poisons, virri and 6 foot man eating plants. Not exactly great CC training.

On Fenris, it is the fauna that takes centre stage. the Wolves of Fenris have not only been described in the background as lethal, but in our current dex and the the EoT 13th Co list as on a par with Astates in terms of CC potential. And Fenrisian youths kill these things with weapons no more advanced than spears and harpoons.

What you don't seem to appricate is the backwardness of Fenris - they don't know what a gun is, but they are literally bred for CC combat against man and beast. And only the stongest of these are recruited for the Wolves. The result of this is Aspirants who are technically very incompetant, but given the Astartes implants and weapons are as skilled, if not more so than their counterparts of a score of campaigns in terms of raw close quarter combat - because until the Wolves pick them, their entire life is training for that.

Compare this to the Ultramarines - each one of their potential recruits undergoes intensive military training in a variety of techniques, producing a well rounded, balanced recruit. A Blood Claws only comprehension of balance is how not to fall over when his axe is jammed in an enemies skull.

Finally - I can appriciate the sentiment about there being too many Marines Codicies. I don't entirely agree with it, but I do believe that if a new Marines Codex is released, they should be justifiably different to the standard one, so as to add something to the metagame.

Surely you can at least agree with that, and that if any Marines army is going to shred the rulebook, it'd be the Wolves?

No one is addressing ShumaGorath's main point particularly well I think. So I'll reiterate it.
All the marine chapters are made of uber badasses who come from horrific worlds and are the toughest of the tough. what about Space Wolves should make them better, so that they cost more?

Geneseed baby. It's all about the geneseed. That, and training. Why you ask? Well, why aren't you angry that GK's are so much more elite than Space Marines? GK's are a chapter too!

I generally agree - the armies should have tradeoffs, but be generally equivalent (n.b. "equivalent" is not "identical"). That said:

SW Long Fangs are fine as Heavies and *do* take the Devastator role, like it or not. You don't get ablative wounds. Neither do Dark Reapers or Obliterators, so suck it up. Leman Russ decreed that was how SW field their Heavies, so if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for you. If Logan Grimmnar wouldn't whine like a little girls, then neither should you. If you guys want ablative wounds for your Devastators that badly, you're free to bend over, surrender your manhood, and pick up a copy of the Codex Astartes like Rogal Dorn and the other wimps did at the Second Founding.

SW Blood Claws are fine as Troops. BC (Sv3+) are *clearly* better than SM Scouts (WS3 Sv4+), and they can take Special CCWs, so crying over that same 1 pt of lost BS is just petty. Especially as they're not primarily a shooting unit.

SW Grey Hunters are also good compared to SM Tacticals, especially as that embedded Tactical Heavy Weapon in now requires a full 10 guys in the Tactical Squad. But again, if you want that Heavy weapons guy in your GH squad, you can get on your knees, kiss some butt, and pick up a copy of the Codex Astartes.

Wolf Guard / Deathwing / Sternguard / Vanguard is basically a wash.

And your Scouts are "good", like the DA / BA ones, but you get bonus rules.

Yes, the SW need some tweaks for 5E. Yes, the Exterminator should move to a Predator (or maybe Land Raider) chassis. Yes, the SW should get more of the standard Marine stuff that's been added (Crusader / Redeemer are obvious).

But there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with the SW as from the concepts laid down at the dawn of Second Edition and carried over into 3rd. Nor is there anything to suggest that SW should be obviously *better* than any other flavor of SM. Just *different*, and that's the point, right? That you're *not* following the Codex Astates.

Yup.

every wolf player here jumped on it like I stabbed their dog.

You didn't stab their dog, you stabbed them. They're Space Puppies!!1!1!!1!!1!11! Get it?

(Crusader / Redeemer are obvious).

The SM Codex Faq already gave them all landraider variants.

All the marine chapters are made of uber badasses who come from horrific worlds and are the toughest of the tough. what about Space Wolves should make them better, so that they cost more?

They have beards, duh.

Ratbarf wrote:

You didn't stab their dog, you stabbed them. They're Space Puppies!!1!1!!1!!1!11! Get it?

HAHAHA!!! That's funny... oh, wait, that's me...Grrrrrr!!

I'm going to answer the "why are SW better than other marines in HTH" without touching fluff. I'm just going to historically look at the actual rules.

Back when Wolves were released they had serveral HTH bonuses over their counterparts or enemy armies.

1 - Extra special CCW. GH and BC squads could have between 3-4 special CCWs in the form of hammers, fists, p-weapons. All other marines only had 1 on the sarge.

2 - Counter Charge. Back when you had kill zones this was huge. The fact that the wolves could close into you to get each guy stuck into the fight was huge. All the wolves swing all the time. Angling your charges for optium HTH attack with minimum counter attack was just not possilbe against the wolves. They always got all their boys stuck in.

3 - True Grit. Effectivily giving all wolves an extra attack. Don't forget, back then BP/CCW was usually reserved for dedicated assault squads and sarges. But for the wolves, each unit had the possibility of having an effective base 2 attacks.

4 - BCs with two attacks on the charge. Damn, just damn. Add in three powerfists you have an effective 12 S8 attacks coming against you when BCs charged.

5 - Characters come with Termi honors standard. Remember that ability. All of the wolves special characters (including wolfguard) had higher than normal attacks, straight from the get go, add in that they all had true grit or bp/ccw and it got even more deadly. It seems a little lack luster now because in general attack charastics have gone up for special characters across the board.


But now many armies, not just marines, benifit from counter charge as it is a 40K basic rule. Many more units have access to effective pistol/ccw or equivilents thus reducing the uniqueness of armies with True Grit. The lack of attack from having a p-fist and pistol is huge against the wolves. Where most armies are only loosing 1 attack, BCs and company could loose as many as 4 attacks.

So yeah, some of the rumors may sound over the top, but they might just be inline with bringing the wolves HTH ability to the forfront just like their last codex did nine years ago.

ShumaGorath wrote:

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

I don't mind more powerful units costing more. I don't think the space wolves are currently overpowered. What I want to know is why they cost so much more, because I don't believe that they should. They should be less expensive and less powerful then they currently are to fall in line with their deviant nature of training. They are marines that specialize in close combat, not ultrageneseed supermen who should be twice the point to make up for their increased capabilities. They should cost the same, be better in combat, and worse at range. The old codex and these new rumors seem to imply that they will be more expensive, better at close combat, and the same at range. Which in essence belittles other marine armies for being inferior.

Oooh, and the long fangs. Split fire. Yeah, and for that ability you pay 108 points for 5 models that die just as easily as a regular marine before you choose weapons. The guy that gives the unit this ability is actually the only model in the squad that can be taken away as a casualty before you start removing heavy weapons. They're so worth taking. [/sarcasm]
I'll grant you the Wolf guard's greater number of termie heavy weapons - then again, you have to take 10 of them to get that many assault cannons. Such a squad (equipped otherwise identical to a marine squad, so PF for everyone, and stormbolters for everyone not using a heavy weapon), would set you back 588 points, excluding the character you need them to guard. How much would a 10-man marine terminator squad with 4 asscannons (I'm more of a Cyclone launcher fan, myself) cost, exactly?
At a more normal squad size (4-6 Wolf Guard), you get... 2 heavy weapons. That's such an increase over the amount regular termies got when the codex was written. Oh wait, no it wasn't.
Though I will say that a WG Deathstar unit with SW-unique upgrades (runic charms) are easily a match for the worst other armies can reasonably dish out - including Nob bikerz and seercouncils - at the cost of about a quarter of your army.

These are all good justifications for why the army itself doesn't really do ranged that well. And it all hinges on the fact that the ranged units are overpriced, not bad. Not worse at their job. Not less skilled as they should be given their lack of focus in that area.

What I am debating is whether they should be more expensive and more skilled, not whether they are currently worth it in their current form.

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

Because they have one good build, difficult to find and bad models, and a codex that isn't on store shelves anymore with half the unit selection of the normal book. They used to be a powerdex and have suffered in the two revisions of the game since then. That doesn't change the fact that even if largely vulnerable and overcosted much of their book shows them to be superior to regular marines in every facet, which doesn't sit well with me because they shouldn't be.

Also, the reason you're not hearing anything about losing ranged power, is because rumours, for the most part, tend to be about what *is* in the Codex, not what isn't. So far, I've heard no reliable rumours that the LRE is still there, and I'm hedging my bets on the 6A WG and stuff, too.
They're rumours. The Codex is still 4 1/2 months away, at minimum. So they're early rumours. So until we get confirmation/more rumours, chill. It ain't the end of the world (yet).

True, and this should be a much more calm discussion. I made some snarkey comments about questionable and rather extreme rumors and as I said before, every wolf player here jumped on it like I stabbed their dog. I would be happy to discuss the implications and the design choices, rather than a "my army is better" geneseed discussion and a debate on whether the old codex is still viable.

Okay this is a much more reasonable point.

Basically you feel that the deviant training of the space wolves means that they should have some disadvantages in shooting to match their advantages in cc. Basically you seem to think that more time spent training for cc means that wolves should be bs 3 or some other drawback.

I would argue that the disadvantages for their deviant training are already included in the list.

Say we have terry the tactical marine. In a 24 hour day Terry spends 8 hours training to be a tactical marine, 8 hours training to be an assault marine and 8 hours training to be a devastator marine.

In contrast Gary the Grey Hunter spends 24 hours a day training to be a Grey Hunter.

Does this mean we expect Gary to be firing his bolter at bs3? No, he is training to fire his bolter. What he isn't training to do is to use a jetpack and this is reflected in our jetpack troops being bw and ws 3, having no veteran jet pack troops and not being able to use jet packs on characters.

He also isn't training to use a heavy weapon, which is why he can't use one and won't be able to use one until he becomes an old man, gives up being a line troop and starts training with heavy weapons 24 hours a day.

Now I can see why you'd object to long fangs getting split fire (frankly I do too) because it seems to indicate that they are superior heavy weapons troops. In fact it is meant to demonstrate the fact that the pack has worked together all their life, in contrast to how marine squads work.

So the loss for having better line troops is that we have worse assault marine equivalents and, I take your point, we should have worse devastator equivalents (we do but not in a fluff sense purely in a gameplay sense because there are no ablative wounds).

I should also point out that our deviant training in focusing on 2 cc's and counter attack also causes us to lose combat squads and combat tactics.

I will eat my hat if wolves get combat tactics in the next codex. They will undoubtedly count stubborn or counter attack as our version of it. I would also be surprised if we got combat squads because space wolves fight in packs, not squads.

So that is a loss of combat squads, combat tactics and worse jump troops in exchange for 2cc weapons, counter charge and nmto which will probably be changed to stubborn.

Does that still honestly not look like wolves have lost something to you?
And that's without taking into account gene-seed and the world they recruit from, which are perfectly reasonable arguments too.

Again, do you take issue with Grey Knights being a more elite version of marines? What about templar vows?


I actually agree with you fully about 6 attack on the charge wolf guard. It does sound silly and I'd rather have toned down wg that are cheap enough to actually use. However to put it in perspective it is already possible to combo honour guard in such a way that they get 6 attacks on the charge. We don't know the cost or mechanics of this ability so it might be a combo with a special character that costs 800pts for all we know.

av14 bjorn when titans aren't is a little odd but frankly I think that's an issue with titans personally. It's not like he'd be unkillable and he is supposed to be one of the toughest things in the universe.

ShumaGorath wrote:I don't mind more powerful units costing more. I don't think the space wolves are currently overpowered. What I want to know is why they cost so much more, because I don't believe that they should. They should be less expensive and less powerful then they currently are to fall in line with their deviant nature of training. They are marines that specialize in close combat, not ultrageneseed supermen who should be twice the point to make up for their increased capabilities. They should cost the same, be better in combat, and worse at range. The old codex and these new rumors seem to imply that they will be more expensive, better at close combat, and the same at range. Which in essence belittles other marine armies for being inferior.

True, and this should be a much more calm discussion. I made some snarkey comments about questionable and rather extreme rumors and as I said before, every wolf player here jumped on it like I stabbed their dog. I would be happy to discuss the implications and the design choices, rather than a "my army is better" geneseed discussion and a debate on whether the old codex is still viable.

Okay, that sounds like a much more reasonable position than "Wolves should not have a codex and are just marines in grey armour", which is more or less what everyone got all riled up about.
Problem is that part of the reason they currently cost so much more is that their codex is 9 yrs old. Another is that, as a rule, they carry more equipment than regular marines - or at least, they used to. Finally, the Wolves' emphasis on close combat replaces their access to heavy weapons in favour of close-ranged weaponry and special designed to reflect their greater emphasis on close range fights - and let's not start arguing that wolves are just as good at regular marines at longranged, because they're not. Problem with that is that in 40K, close-range, and specifically close combat is (or was), as a rule, more powerful game-mechanic wise than (longrange) shooting.
For example, a whole squad can be lost to combat in one go because 1 armour save was failed - shooting can't do that. So, in order to preserve game balance, marines that are better in cc than ranged should be slightly more expensive - at least that was the case when the old codex was written. These reasons have nothing to do with the geneseed or SW being genetically superior to regular marines.
(Although, before the Crusade, the Wolves did have more victories than every other Legion, except Horus' Luna Wolves, and Jonson's Dark Angels (because the DA had been around for longer - and kicked the 1K Sons Legion off their homeworld all by their lonesome. And how many Marine Chapters actually recruit from Deathworlds? To my knowledge, the Wolves, the Dark Angels -old fluff, anyway-, and IIRC the Blood Angels. That's it.)

I can't say a single sensible thing about how things are going to be in the new codex, because I simply don't have enough info on it. Only thing I will say is that the rumours we've seen so far have zero information on the new wolves' ranged abilities, so there's basically no reason for or point to complaining about it.

And FYI, the reason every Wolf player jumped on you, is that those of us who managed to stay true to Russ' call over almost a decade of neglect are pretty psyched that we're finally getting our day in the sun again. We're just happy we're finally getting a new Codex. We (or at least, I - can't speak for everyone, after all), just want a shiny new book, shiny new models and rules that reflect the Wolves' character. The old codex, IMO actually does the latter pretty well. I do not give a flying f*** about its power level.
And along comes you, basically trying to rain on our parade. Is it any wonder that people this dedicated to an army get upset when someone begrudges us a long-overdue new Codex? You're honestly surprised at this?

Basing any debate on Rumors is foolhardy. Some of them are certainly wrong and some will proven to be right and some will be not totally right, but in the same ballpark.

GW needs to better define the 'technophobia' of the SWs. They created the Predator Annihilator (at least, in the Predator fluff article in WD, they did) by refitting the turrets with lascannons from their Long Fang Packs. Which to me says, they don't mind tinkering with tech, so why would they be techno-phobes? Now, if GW retcons so they didn't create the Pred-Ann, fine. I don't care one way or the other, but it'd be nice if they were consistent. They don't like new tech, so they don't adopt the LRR, but the LRC is okay? Huh?

In second edition, SWs had a 'codex' progression. Neophytes were Scouts, the BCs, then GHs, then Wolf Guard or Long Fangs. In third edition, they re-did it. Neophytes are Blood Claws, then Grey Hunters. Then, if they're loners, they become Scouts. If they're great, they become Wolf Guard. Otherwise, the eventually become Long Fangs.

My guess is that GW is trying to make them significantly divergent, partially by taking away standard SM kit, to avoid the 'everyone will play Blue Space Wolves' aka 'my DAs are Green Marines' that plague the revolving SM codex issue.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I find the various death world Fluff to be more than a little hokey, so whenever I read that kind of stuff, my eyes start rolling back in my head...

ALL the fluff is a little hokey. But, yes, the Deathworld stuff is probably a little worse. So, in the far future, there's a backwards planet that is so tough that the plants can kill a man, but they have a big enough population to field multiple regiments for the Emperor's service. I guess the plants only attack adults and throw the kids back because they're not big enough (much like fishing).

dienekes96 wrote:Simple. Space Wolf players are the creme of the hobby, and they deserve the finest in army builds to match their indisputable character, their panache, and their good looks.

Damn right. GW knows their audience well.

I can't wait

Jayden63 wrote:I'm going to answer the "why are SW better than other marines in HTH" without touching fluff. I'm just going to historically look at the actual rules.

Back when Wolves were released they had serveral HTH bonuses over their counterparts or enemy armies.

1 - Extra special CCW. GH and BC squads could have between 3-4 special CCWs in the form of hammers, fists, p-weapons. All other marines only had 1 on the sarge.

2 - Counter Charge. Back when you had kill zones this was huge. The fact that the wolves could close into you to get each guy stuck into the fight was huge. All the wolves swing all the time. Angling your charges for optium HTH attack with minimum counter attack was just not possilbe against the wolves. They always got all their boys stuck in.

3 - True Grit. Effectivily giving all wolves an extra attack. Don't forget, back then BP/CCW was usually reserved for dedicated assault squads and sarges. But for the wolves, each unit had the possibility of having an effective base 2 attacks.

4 - BCs with two attacks on the charge. Damn, just damn. Add in three powerfists you have an effective 12 S8 attacks coming against you when BCs charged.

5 - Characters come with Termi honors standard. Remember that ability. All of the wolves special characters (including wolfguard) had higher than normal attacks, straight from the get go, add in that they all had true grit or bp/ccw and it got even more deadly. It seems a little lack luster now because in general attack charastics have gone up for special characters across the board.


But now many armies, not just marines, benifit from counter charge as it is a 40K basic rule. Many more units have access to effective pistol/ccw or equivilents thus reducing the uniqueness of armies with True Grit. The lack of attack from having a p-fist and pistol is huge against the wolves. Where most armies are only loosing 1 attack, BCs and company could loose as many as 4 attacks.

So yeah, some of the rumors may sound over the top, but they might just be inline with bringing the wolves HTH ability to the forfront just like their last codex did nine years ago.

/second

All that and you didn't even touch 2nd edition Wolves

2nd Ed Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/Long Fangs had WS5
2nd Ed. Marines/CSM/KHORNE BERSERKERS WS4
2nd Ed. SM/CSM Veterans WS5
2nd Ed. Wolf Guard WS6

Wolves have always been powerful in CC (whether you look at fluff or just gaming history).

Why are SW better? I believe that has been asked an answered. I'd be happy to engage in a more formal debate on that topic, but my researched responses were ignored (for the most part) in the other thread on why SW "deserve" a Codex, so why bother putting the effort into a post that will be primarily ignored by the intended audience.

I will give a short answer. Before SW threads, there was no Mastiff. With some possible SW threads, Mastiff has returned. That validates their release as well as anything else I could state.

New info from BoLS.

Whispers on the wind tell us the following:

Space Wolves have two new main sets planned:
-Wolf Guard in Terminator armour.
-Plastic Long Fangs set.

Currently the Grey Hunters and Blood Claws aren't getting much of a makeover; however, there is the high probability of a BT/DA style upgrade box/sprue.

There will also be several new metal figures released.

Continued talk and chatter is gelling around a September release slot for the Sons of Russ.

Plastic Long Fangs makes me think they'll have different weapon options than a dev squad, either more or less. If they push the 'SW don't like new tech' idea, maybe it'll be the same as Chaos Havoc load-outs. Who wouldn't like to see Long Fangs with autocannons (assuming points are right)? Terminator boxset makes me think they'll get different options too - maybe Stormbolter and Power Weapon as standard, but can upgrade to combi-weapons and powerfists.

"New" Long Fangs will use the plastic Heavy Weapons sprue, instead of the current metal weapons. Anybody likes the metal guns, better get them while you can!

"New" Blood Claws will be dead easy: take 2 new sprues of 5 Assault Marines, hold the JP sprues. That makes 10 *running* BP&CCW Marines instead of the standing models we currently have. Toss in a new SW upgrade sprue, and you're all done.

"New" Grey Hunters would similarly use the new 10-man Tactical Sprue, swapping the Tactical upgrade sprue for a SW upgrade sprue.

Terminators, I don't know if it's as easy as throwing in an upgrade sprue or not.

But no more mixed-metal marines for you guys. And probably a good thing, now that GW's plastics fit together so nicely. Making metal Devs was such a pain.

Unless the rules radically change I will not be buying any long fangs, plastic or otherwise but yay for a new box.

New wolfguard termies was practically a given. Hopefully the box has a ton of gear and different options rather than being the standard marine termies with wolfy bitz. Nobody uses wolfguard with all p-fists so please don't put that in the box.

BC/GH refresh could go one of two ways. New sprues are generally a good thing and with every year GW improves but the current SW upgrade sprue is absolutely awesome!. Any new one better come with a p-fist, 2 power weapons, meltagun, wolf pelt, wolfy shoulder pad and wolf backpack at the very least.


New metal models sounds good, hopefully a new bjorn, ragnar, ulrik, njal and this new wulfen guy. If not all of those then some more metal wolf guard please (all but 1 of the current figs are 2nd ed models)

I'm still hoping for a Bjorn in plastic. Maybe wishful thinking, but I definitely prefer plastic dreads over the metals.

Ratbarf wrote: Though this could conflict with the rule that all models that start a combat able to fight are able to do so regardless of causualties.

I get that i'm really late to respond to this, but what? Where does it say this? Seriously i have never heard this before, i'm not mocking you, and i'm not being a dick, where does it say this in the rulebook? I could really use a page number.

Wow, I have never seen a thread so full of ignorance. I played Space Wolves back in 3rd edition (one of my favorite armies I might add), and I remember more about their fluff then most people seem to remember, so I will explain a few things.

Space Wolves are not better, they are just different with a totally unique organization. If anything they are a Pre-heresy Marine Legion with thier own unique slants.

Rules wise, very little should change. Space Wolves has always been about close combat and heroes. And the current codex reflects this. They should have ungodly close combat. They should have crazy squad configurations due to their organization. And they should always be out numbered compared to normal marines. That is the joy of playing this army.

Personally, I would like to see a 4 codex structure applied to Space Marines and Chaos.

Space Marines - Codex Space Marines, Codex Space Wolves, Codex Black Templars, Codex Angels of Death

Chaos - Codex Space Marines, Codex Deamons, Codex Traitors, Codex Legions