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I don't like special characters, it ruins it for me. How many Guard armies in real life are lead by Creed, 1. How many collected armies are led by Creed 1000s. I don't feel the need to have special characters, I like it better when my army is led by someone who isn't recognised. Just another decorated commander. (Also you can make up a really cool background)

The OC-D

@ocd: qft

@willydstyle: maybe, you never know lol

Hate special characters, always have done, won't use them in any way (even Counts As).

I love that you can customize your army, I just don't want to do it by having the same Special Character in EVERY game.

I was much happier with the doctrines/traits exchange-based systems...

Oh well...:/

H.B.M.C. wrote:

thesilverback wrote:I think difference in marine chapters adds fun to the game.

So do I, but again, I ask:

Why do I have to bring a named character in order to have a different Marine Chapter? Why can't I just play Salamanders as Salamanders without the need to bring H'Stan to every damned battle I fight?

Why couldn't there just be a page of rules with:

Salamanders - Exchanged Chapter Tactics for X, Y, Z.
White Scars - Exchange Chapter Tactics for Bikes as Troops/Outflank.
Crimson Fists - Exchange Chapter Tactics for Scoring Sternguard and Stubborn.
Death Wing - Exchange Chapter Tactics for Deathwing Terminator Squads as Troops.
etc.


While I agree with your line of reasoning, I believe it is sales that dictates GWs current thinking regarding named characters. I've never understood why a company would make a model, charge more money for said model, then state the model can only be used by your opponent's permission. Great way to lower sales of said model...

There's no need to have these things tied to Special Characters other than GW's need to sell new models.

Because people were just gaming the traits system anyway, GW just slapped a points cost
on a model and said, "Here's your Scout army" or something to that effect. (not so familiar
with all the game changers)

malfred wrote:Because people were just gaming the traits system anyway, GW just slapped a points cost
on a model and said, "Here's your Scout army" or something to that effect. (not so familiar
with all the game changers)

This is pretty much it. People were taking the negative traits that had no impact on their army (no allies? So what...) to take the positive traits that had a strong impact on their army.

For Guard, people just took close order drill and drop troops... because they were free and useful. Sure Warrior Weapons and Xeno Fighters were really thematic, but their points cost for situational-at-best upgrades meant that they weren't indicative of good game balance.

theocd wrote:I don't like special characters, it ruins it for me. How many Guard armies in real life are lead by Creed, 1. How many collected armies are led by Creed 1000s. I don't feel the need to have special characters, I like it better when my army is led by someone who isn't recognised. Just another decorated commander. (Also you can make up a really cool background)

The OC-D

With the new guard codex there are PLENTY of characters to choose from. It certainly spices up the theme of a rough rider based army to be led by Attila (The MAN). If you want a theme, and a character goes with it, fine. Just don't let the character be the sole influence of the army.

willydstyle wrote:Why should Salamanders be defined as having special rules? You're free to play Salamanders without Vulkan, just paint them how you wish, and if you want to get even more detailed, take plenty of flame/melta weapons (they're the best in 5th anyways).

Similarly, White Scars do just fine with a Captain on a bike, rather than Kahn (better, IMO).

Special rules don't define a chapter, fluff and paintjob do.

*facepalm*

It's not about whether something should have special rules, or about fluff and paintjobs. It's about the method in which something receives special rules. Whether something deserves to get rules or not is immaterial to this conversation.

My argument makes the assumption that various Chapters are going to get their own special rules already - never a case of whether they should or shouldn't, they just do, it's the premise behind the rule - and then from there we look at the better ways to do it. Some people that you should always have to bring the same named character to every battle to get the special rules. I think that you should just be able to play your Chapter with your own commander and fluff without needing to bring a pre-written named character. I'm debating the need to have these rules tied to special characters.

So far the only person to raise a decent counter point is (unsurprisingly) Polonius, with his comment that not all replacements for Chapter Tactics are equal - some are better than others - and I'd have to agree with that. So can we think of a better way, one that avoids having to do it with points and avoids the pitfalls of the previously flawed Traits and Doctrine systems.

Chaos legions don't have special rules, craft worlds don't have special rules hive fleets don't have special rules, ork klans don't have special rules, why are marines so special that not only should they have special rules, but they should be gained without a method of actually applying a points value to the special rules.

If one can be cobbled together that sells more models than the one right now... GW will buy in.

EDIT: Also, Willy has a point. Give every single codex some spare rulesets for other forces (guard get airmobile and armoured, orks get KoS, Chaos get undivided, slanesh, etc, and so on. THEN give them to the marines.)

Or release a new codex, one per race, with rules for that.

Special characters are good they add fluff and at the current time this is the only way to take chapter tactics. I don't want to go back to the trait system but I have to agree that I wish that GW would put out chapter tactics to add some variety because while yes you can load up on a specific type of weapon but that just a style of combat and really doesn't change the army.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Do you like that they are the only way to add to your army's abilities? Say you were a White Scar player, would you like the fact that they only way to play White Scars with their own rules was to bring the same character to every game? Or would you prefer to be able to use those special rules without the need for a character.

The problem is that just purchasing a special rule can be misleading. If you just go to a chart and apply it to the entire army it has a lot less impact than a physical representation of those abilities on the board. When you say "same character", do you mean like the same actual guy or the same stat line? Because I don't really delve to far into the idea that if you take Vulcan, he is always Vulcan. He could just be a high ranking officer in the chapter if you don't want it to be Vulcan chilling out with you every game. Hell he could be Sly Marbo handing out better equipment he recovered because he is a badass to represent someone's chapter tactics. It really doesn't bother me, but the counts as rules seem to bother a lot of other people.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or, if you play a DIY Chapter, do you like having to bring named characters from other Chapters to tailor your force to a specific theme or idea you like? Would you prefer if you could just exchange Chapter Tactics for another similar rule without the need to take a different army's leader into battle all the time?

He wouldn't be a different armies leader for me, he'd be mine. Like I said, counts as rule don't bother me at all. If it does bother you, I'd like to ask why your so hung up on those statline's 'belonging' to some fictional character. You can change his name. You can even paint it on his base and never let your opponent call him by the name in the book. Make them call him Stanley the Mighty, it's written on the base.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And, as a followup question, why do see no other elegant way of doing it? I'm interested to know.

I'm a nurse, not a game designer. Someone in game design might be able to fix it with a more elegant solution, but I probably can't. An army wide purchase for a chapter tactics feels slapped on. The general, so to speak, giving the ability to the army is pretty decent. I can't really think of another way to do it except remove the names and backgrounds of all the named characters that give out abilities and such. But then what would you call them? Chapter Tactics A General, Chapter Tactics B General, etc.. that feels sloppy and needlessly anonymous. Especially if later on or earlier in the book they refer to taking Vulcan (Chapter Tactics A General, counts as) in a manner such as that. It's just odd. Might as well give them all names that you, the player, can replace with your own background and modeling abilities later on.

I like special characters. Having stated that I've never played one in 40k. Newest marine codex set the trend. From here on out I believe all codecies(sp) will have special characters that grant traits or army building adjustments. I think they are a fun addition to the armies.

As a Fantasy player I've seen the trend in the newer army books. Special characters are added to the Lord and Heroes choices (along with the occasional Rare slot), but excepting the Troll King and Karl Franz I believe.

willydstyle wrote:Chaos legions don't have special rules, craft worlds don't have special rules hive fleets don't have special rules, ork klans don't have special rules.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

The injustice! :(

I miss my Craftworlds, Traitors and Klanz. :(

whitedragon wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Chaos legions don't have special rules, craft worlds don't have special rules hive fleets don't have special rules, ork klans don't have special rules.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

The injustice! :(

I miss my Craftworlds, Traitors and Klanz. :(

It's just the truth. They've moved the game away from tons of sub-lists and special rules and towards your army being defined by unit selection and paint scheme.

IMO it makes for a more balanced game.

I wouldn't mind special characters if they were priced appropriately for what they do, rather than in the haphazard method that GW uses.

I think they should be priced just slightly more than their actual impact on the game warrants, so that they're fluffy options that people play for fun, not must-have keystones to abusive combinations.

Furthermore, I think game-design that allows a force multiplying effect on an entire army for a minimal cost on a single characters is poor game design. Characters like Fateweaver, Vulkan, Shrike, and Epidemius are the worst offenders in this regard. Twin-linking every non-basic weapon in your army, re-rolling all your saves, or giving every one fleet are massive advantages, and the cost of these special characters does not adequately reflect their impact on the game.

If someone wants to take Marneus, I really don't see this as any different than taking a bloodthirster. Whatever, it's a guy who kills you if he gets into combat, so shoot him instead.

It's the characters who change how the codex works that are the bad ones.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

thesilverback wrote:I think difference in marine chapters adds fun to the game.

So do I, but again, I ask:

Why do I have to bring a named character in order to have a different Marine Chapter? Why can't I just play Salamanders as Salamanders without the need to bring H'Stan to every damned battle I fight?

its to sell those lovely new special character models.

willydstyle wrote:...why are marines so special that not only should they have special rules, but they should be gained without a method of actually applying a points value to the special rules.

Did you even read my post you nitwit?

Quoting myself here:

It's not about whether something should have special rules, or about fluff and paintjobs. It's about the method in which something receives special rules. Whether something deserves to get rules or not is immaterial to this conversation.

Come back to me when your reading comprehension skills rise above zero.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Typeline wrote:... Because I don't really delve to far into the idea that if you take Vulcan, he is always Vulcan ... He wouldn't be a different armies leader for me, he'd be mine. Like I said, counts as rule don't bother me at all...

Ok, even if you do the 'Counts As' thing, it changes nothing. You're still having to bring (as in you have no choice) a specific unit entry to every game in order to play with a certain subset of rules. It doesn't matter whether he's Vulcan He'stan or you're calling him High Lord Google, if you want to play with Sallies rules, you can't just do that, you have to bring a character. Aside from Polonius' valid balance question, would there be anything wrong with allowing someone replace Chapter Tactics with, say, the Raven Guard rules Shrike gives without the need to actually bring Shrike (or whatever you want to 'Counts As' him as).

It's not about what the character is named, his statline, the fluff of that particular character, or what you want to call him for your army. My issue is the need to bring this character - using that as an abstract construct for a second - to every game you play. Compare it to, say, the Chaos Legions from the previous (ie. REAL) Chaos Codex. If I wanted to play Night Lords, I just played Night Lords. I lost all my Marked units other then the MoCU, but gained more Raptors and got a cool Stealth Skill I could buy. I didn't have to bring Dreadlord Whateverface to each battle (whether I renamed him or not) in order to play an army. Last Dark Angel Codex a Deathwing player could simply play Deathwing. He could be really heavily into the original Deathwing fuff and want a Librarian to lead his force. Now he can't, as he has to bring Belial to every game (or a 'Counts As' Belial). I don't see what gets broken by just allowing that Deathwing player to just bring whatever character he wants as his leader. Why must he bring a special character? Why must a Ravenwing player bring a guy on a Jetbike or Speeder to every battle he plays? Why can an Ultramarine army take Bikes as Troops if the Captain is on a Bike, yet a Dark Angel player can only do that if he brings a special character? Is every Ravenwing formation led by the Master? The Company's Chaplain never leads the men into combat? Why can't he do a Ravenwing army led by a Chaplain? Why do Sallies stop benefiting from what makes Sallies unique whenever He'stan isn't around? Why do Sternguard suddenly become scoring when Kantor is nearby?

'Counts As' is about as relevent as Willy's posts. It's not about who the character is specifically it's just the fact that you have to bring him in the first place. I don't see why it's necessary when you could just cut out the need for a character and just allow players to play their chosen Chapters and use them as they want. The special characters could still exist to add flavour/punch to an army - which is what special characters should do - but if someone wants to give up Chapter Tactics for something more fitting their chosen Chapter, why should they be forced into taking some character in every game?

The main issue I have with special characters (specifically Marine and IG ones) is that they allow you to make huge changes, like reorganizing the FOC, and so on and so forth. This is a trend with the newer codices that has literally gone 180 from the trend previous to these dexes.

For example, the latest Chaos Codex - it lost anything that allows the player to make a specialized or unique army. No more IW, no more benefits for playing a God-specific force, and few of the special characters are good for much of anything. But, shortly after this Codex comes out, they release a Marine Codex that allows for several different army types that totally rearrange the FOC, and most of them are very competitive.

I have no real complaints about Special Characters, but the willy-nilly inconsistency that GW practices drives me nuts, and I think that if they are going to include characters that powerful, they have to provide them across the board, not just to a few armies.

Daba wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:
Also, Yriel is straight up unfair.

He costs about the same as the avatar, who would you choose?

Can the avatar charge a MEQ squad and kill them all in one shot?
10 Marines=roughly Yriel's points cost.

Then he gets to charge someone else with I7. Great.

Not too bad, but his points cost should be closer to eldrad's or a phoenix lord

How did you manage to get your marines charged by a single character? If he was in a unit, he would have hit his allies too. Or did the player outmanoeuvre your units?

That's a one shot ability; Chapter Masters have Orbital Bombardment (one shot) and can kill a squad of 10 Terminators! should Chapter Masters cost 400 points then?

Yriel's cost is fair; in fact, there's very few people who use him in the Eldar lists I've seen. He's generally taken to fill a niche (Close Combat Autarch on foot) where there are no other viable options, and even then that's rare. He's a T3 3+ save model with no Eternal Warrior, which is pretty easy to kill too.

Anyway, I don't mind the SC in all armies; they're just another option as far as the army list, and allow you to 'spice up' your list.

Also, the background on them can be interesting like Yriel and Pedro so I wouldn't begrudge someone for taking them for this reason either.

He rode up a flank in a wave serpent with a squad of banshees then split off from them. They went after my raptors while he charged a CSM squad. Thing is, the eldar player never has to hit his own units. He can break Yriel off from the squad he's with, charge, use his uber move, then charge his allies in next turn if anything is left.

The reason I think Chapter Masters are a bit more reasonable is that their orbital bombardment scatters the full 2D6", so you have a chance of hitting nothing with it. Yriel is going to hit everything around him every time he uses the ability.

Hmmm I'm starting to like Special Characters. Why i can add a little extra punch plus I'm using the new IG codex to make a Mechanicus army

@H.B.M.C. you seem to be ignoring the point that I'm saying which is that Special characters are a way to add special rules with a points value.

I think it also makes it easier to see, because it's not just something written down on an army list ("Oh yeah, sure I've got Salamanders rules *erase erase, scribble scribble*) but something that your opponent can see a representation of on the battle field.

So, in addition to the fact that marines are pretty special just to have any way to get special rules for their chapters, they are fairly well represented by special characters.

I like the IDEA of special characters, it's the EXECUTION of them in the game that ruins it for me. They are too much.

Plus I play 'Nids and we don't / shouldn't have any... so without a mechanism to match special characters it's really not fun to face them.

Mad Rabbit wrote:
The reason I think Chapter Masters are a bit more reasonable is that their orbital bombardment scatters the full 2D6", so you have a chance of hitting nothing with it. Yriel is going to hit everything around him every time he uses the ability.

Yeah, but 2 things. 1, he's not going to attack to do that boom. and 2, you will have to sicidally throw him into large swarms/squads to be effective. And if he wants to use it he has to be alone, so if only your serge with a power fist survives the blast he can still slam Yriel in the face. (instant death).

Alright, I was going to write up a preamble, but its 1 in the morning, so I'll jump right in.

I don't like the way they did SCs for the Space Marines. If you are worried about balance of the points cost for the SM Chapter Tactics, then tack that on as an option available to all HQs. Call them stuff like "Purging Flame" or "Speed and Stealth" for Vulkan and Shrikes abilities, etc.. Point cost them approprietly. Now you can have a Master of the Forge leading a DIY force that has improved bolters (Bolter Drill) and it feels fluffy and cool. Then either mention what chapters favor which abilities, or give the SCs with the abilites built in. I think the latter is better, so you lessen the amount of foolish people running around with Speed and Stealth for his Iron Hands.

They have done it so it works, though. I like what they did with the Ork Dex. The HQs allow you to alter the FOC slightly, but not enough to be abused (atleast that I know of). If you want Kult of Speed, the tool is there (Wazdakka), although I do regret the klans not having the flavor they deserve. I suppose there should have been more work on customizing your Warboss (making a stealthy one, or a shooty one, or a loud tank smashy one, etc. that impacts the boyz slightly) instead of really only being able to take a Powerklaw boss, but even still, it comes together rather well.

DarkHound wrote:Alright, I was going to write up a preamble, but its 1 in the morning, so I'll jump right in.


They have done it so it works, though. I like what they did with the Ork Dex. The HQs allow you to alter the FOC slightly, but not enough to be abused (atleast that I know of). If you want Kult of Speed, the tool is there (Wazdakka), although I do regret the klans not having the flavor they deserve. I suppose there should have been more work on customizing your Warboss (making a stealthy one, or a shooty one, or a loud tank smashy one, etc. that impacts the boyz slightly) instead of really only being able to take a Powerklaw boss, but even still, it comes together rather well.

Damn! 1 in the morning there? Obviously not going to get many replies from US around this time.

Anyway I think it should be the models that define the klan not the otherway round.
If you're all about bikes and truks then you're a speed freek, if you're into Squiggoths and Squiqs etc then you're a Goff. Don't let the rules bend you.

Special Characters have nothing to do with fluff, there are simply a mechanic to introduce alterations to the army in question.

The "fluff" is simply a rational for the abilities given by the upgrade. And that is what they are, an upgrade to the army.
Special Characters give you options in how you build your list, just like "traits" and "doctrines". Unlike traits and doctrines, it is harder to exploit them, and in addition, they are now represented on the table.

Moving to SC as the means for force alteration, from the abstract "traits/doctrine" system is a logical move by GW imo.


As for them being "mandatory", I have to disagree. Yes, some of them are good (Vulkan, Shriek, ect) but I do not see any of them as mandatory. In fact, I think a competitive IG army (ie mechVet) is best without any SC.


Yes, some people think that to be a "true Salamander army, I need to always have TL flamers/meltaguns/hammers, and shouldn't need Vulkan to do this".

But you have to understand that, given the movement away from unrepresented rules/wargear (ie traits) that GW is making, there would still need to be some tangible unit that would be required. The ability to TL your flamers/meltas is powerful, and the point cost of Vulkan represents this, in a tangible way.

The point of SC is to give physical representation to rules that modify an army, and to balance those rules with appropriate point costs.

Mostly i like a few characters to add a bit of personallity to an army, as long as its balenced out by special rules and alot of options for making your own. With the new space marine codex i was mildly disapointed that the chapter masters had no special rules but captains do.

I've never been a huge fan of special characters,I don't use Typhus in my Death Guard or Ghazzie in my Orkz,and for me that's just a matter of personal choice.
Reading this thread,I find myself in agreement with H.B.M.C. on many of his points,not the least of wich would be the foolishness of HAVING to take special characters in order to have chapter traits.

I like the special characters as generally the models are better than average and in game play they do make for some interesting changes to the game without, for the most part, overpowering anything. There has yet to be one that I think has been priced terribly wrong and there are none that cannot be overcome or ignored.