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Kungfuhustler wrote:it's 4 TL autocannons per hydra, not 2.

You may want to re-read your IG Codex again. You end up getting four shots per hydra, but it's still only two Hydra Autocannons.

Why take a hydra instead of a heavy weapon squad with 3 autocannons since they cost the same...hmmm. Maybe what a hydra brings that a hws cant do? Negating fast vehicles' cover save has been mentioned. Being able to move and shoot is certainly a nice plus. And negating nob biker mobs and seer jet councils is kind of a nice plus as well.

Nothing else shuts down the boosting bikers like a squadron of hydras, not a bad answer for the pointy eared maniacs rushing over to give a flock of str9 cc hits to all that IG heavy armor sitting in the backfield. Str7 is an insta kill for toughness 3 eldar and ap4 is just going to chew up orc mob bikers.

The 225 points not only gives you 12 twin linked auto cannon shots, dont forget the 3 heavy bolters as well. Thats putting out enough wounds that its not a bad tool to remove any flavor of annoying infantry as well.


Being an eldar player, the only good thing about the hydra is that GW didnt make a model of the hydra to go along with the release of the codex

My serpents, jetbikes and fire prisms are safe mainly because there isnt a good conversion path to make hydras, and Im hoping that by the time a model is released a new army codex gets released to replace IG as the hot pick.


Sliggoth

let us not forget the humble eradicator. 36' S6 AP4 ignores cover.

back to the main topic. i haven't play tested it yet but i really want to try the manticore. go read the stats for a single Storm Eagle rocket before you respond. the prospect of 12 S10 AP4 pie plates makes me weep for whoever im playing. (i never win with my guard but iv come close a couple times lol. damn korne berzerkers...)

Kungfuhustler wrote:12 TL s7 shots will kill av11 all day long

So will a load of Grenade Launchers, and they don't require me to expend a HS slot or babysit yet another 6 inch-max-moving Chimera in my list.

and statistically takes care of av12 quite nicely...

Guard have a million and one tools that can take care of AV12 and do other things, though.

OK sod it...

sourclams wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:

sourclams wrote:With its ability to remove SMF, the Hydra is the single best long range AV12 skimmer killer out there.

That's a lofty claim to make of a BS3 vehicle with two twin-linked Autocannons on it, and considering the main reason you're putting forward for such thinking is that it negates a rule you'll be dealing with, at most, once or twice a game it doesn't stand up. The Hydra is an Apocalypse thing that just smells of sweaty balls in normal games. Why do I need a 72" weapon that ignores SMF and BMF (and does sod all else) on a 6x4 table?

Find a better choice for killing AV12 with a 4+ cover save at ranges of 20+ inches. There aren't any, because nothing else can ignore that cover save.

You're right. I was wrong to suggest that the Hydra is not the best at killing SMF at 20+ inches, because it is. I can't find anything else that gets as many twin-linked shots, ignores SMF and BMF, and will wound T4 on a 2 or has a better chance of glancing/ penetrating AV11/12 consistently (-ish) for 75pts.

The thing is, what else does it do? What about armies that don't have Fast Skimmers or Bikers? Armies that are throwing 180+ Orks at you, or Land Raiders, or Drop Pods? Or Daemons? Or 3+ saves? The wounds-kills return from an Autocannon against MEQs is roughly the same as it is from Rapid Fire bolter spam. Best of all, anything with T4 FnP still gets it's second save against an Autocannon; no such luck with a Battlecannon, or a Basilisk, or anything else in the HS slot, 90% of which will take down AV11 and 12 just as easily if only because any hits that do get past the SMF or BMF save (which, like I said, you'll be dealing with once or twice per game at most outside of Apocalypse) need 2s, 3s and 4s to penetrate. Note: not glance. Penetrate.

You may think the Hydra smells of sweaty balls, but against a fast Eldar army with Fire Dragons in Serpents, you will typically have exactly 1 turn of shooting before your 500 point Russ squadron evaporates. The most cost-effective choice is the Hydra. Everything else gets burned by the 4+ cover save.

And what about Raider-spam armies, or horde armies, or mech armies who aren't relying on SMF to get where they need to be? Wow, your 225pt squadron blew up a 50pt Rhino and forced a 150pt unit of Sisters to footslog; it's a pity I haven't got 7 other vehicles to roll up on you with so's I... oh, wait...

I'll admit that, for handling SMF or armies with only a few AV11/12 vehicles, the Hydra is by far the most points-efficient choice. Thing is most armies either haven't got or don't need to use SMF in their tactics will simply laugh at your silly Autocannon Chimeras and roll right over you because you wasted a Heavy slot on useless gak.

Sliggoth wrote:Why take a hydra instead of a heavy weapon squad with 3 autocannons since they cost the same...hmmm. Maybe what a hydra brings that a hws cant do? Negating fast vehicles' cover save has been mentioned.

Sweet. Land Raiders don't get SMF saves though. Neither do mobs of 30 Orks, or Kroot-gangs, or Sisters in a big Rhino, or Soul Grinders, or Obliterators, or.... etc etc.

It's a statistically tiny advantage that is for some reason talked up as though it were the second coming of old-school Conversion Beamers.

At least with the HWS you get an extra scoring unit for your 75pts. A thoroughly expendable scoring unit that isn't snaffling up a Force Org slot.

Being able to move and shoot is certainly a nice plus. And negating nob biker mobs and seer jet councils is kind of a nice plus as well.

Yeah, because both of these units rely heavily on their 3+ cover save to survive, don't they?

No, wait, they don't. Even against Marine bikers Hydras are complete fail, purely because 3+ armour saves laugh at your silly AP4 Heavy weapon.

Nothing else shuts down the boosting bikers like a squadron of hydras, not a bad answer for the pointy eared maniacs rushing over to give a flock of str9 cc hits to all that IG heavy armor sitting in the backfield. Str7 is an insta kill for toughness 3 eldar and ap4 is just going to chew up orc mob bikers.

I'll give you the SMF thing, but this is complete poo. At range an Autocannon HWS is just as likely to hurt Nob Bikerz or Biker Councils, or Marine Bikers, or CSM Bikers, or whatever else Bikers, as your silly Hydra, because the poobaggery of Autocannons doesn't allow them to negate 3+ armour saves and as such, no matter what happens, most Bikers will be taking at least one save against any wounds it inflicts. Against Nob squads, even assuming you ignore the 3+ cover save and the 4+ armour save, the Nobs still have a 5+ invulnerable save and a T4 FnP save to make, and even if they fail that the Autocannon's S7 is insufficient to provide Insta-Jib and as such only a single wound is inflicted. Also note that the Hydra only ignores the 3+ BMF cover save; if they don't Turbo Boost they still get to take the 4+ passive cover save they gain from the Bikes. Take these gakky hulls against Nob Bikerz and watch them laugh you off the board, and leave you wishing you'd brought Battlecannons instead.

Biker Councils are a much easier equasion; they've got 3++ invulnerable saves to keep them healthy, and even assuming you manage to Insta-Jib a Farseer or something what the frig are you going to do about the 4 or 5 Fast Skimmers that have rolled up on you while your Hydras weren't doing the job you bought them to do (i.e nail Skimmers)?

The 225 points not only gives you 12 twin linked auto cannon shots, dont forget the 3 heavy bolters as well. Thats putting out enough wounds that its not a bad tool to remove any flavor of annoying infantry as well.

I'd forgotten about the Heavy Bolters to be honest, but since they're BS3 and not twin-linked forgetting about them is probably the best thing to do. Unless you're firing at Rhinos, in which case bravo. Here's a Podded Ironclad Dread for you to run away from, see how keen you are to fire that Heavy Bolter next turn.

Being an eldar player, the only good thing about the hydra is that GW didnt make a model of the hydra to go along with the release of the codex

What self-respecting Eldar player gives a flying feth about Hydras? >_<

My serpents, jetbikes and fire prisms are safe mainly because there isnt a good conversion path to make hydras

FW makes models, and they're not hard to proxy. Your Skimmers are safe because if people take Hydra squadrons they'll take one, max, and that gak's going to down (at most) one of your vehicles per turn. Assuming all your Lance weapons and Prisms are having an off-day and haven't raped the gak out of the shoddy 12-10-10 hulls before they get a chance to shoot. If they take more than one Hydra squadron, well.... oh dear.

The Angry Commissar wrote:let us not forget the humble eradicator. 36' S6 AP4 ignores cover.

No, let's not, because whilst the Hydra ignores only S/BMF cover saves, the humble Eradicator ignores them all. And wounds T4 on a 2+ and T5 on a 3+. And has a pie-plate which lessens the failitude of BS3. Sure it can't kill Skimmers, but you're a Guard player; you should have more than enough spare shots to negate a 4+ vehicular cover save anyway. Assuming you didn't waste slots and points on one trick pony units.

We've drifted quite a ways from "what is the best artillery unit"

So there is the squadronable 'artillery' section and also the manticore should be thrown in as it operates in much the same way.

The quick and dirty answer is. If you have 160 points, the manticore. If you have 280, 2x medusas with bastion breachers. If you only have 135, the standard shot medusa. If you have less than that, make room for it. it's worth the 10 points over the basilisk.

My heavy support for the last dozen games or so has been some combination of squadroned medusas with bastion breachers or manticores, based on how many points I spent on devildogs and chimeras, and how big the game was.

Griffons would be the other good choice to make. But only if you live in a world where infantry has run amok and no one ever runs transports or land raiders. Or you are playing in a campaign type scenario where its cool to tool your list against an opponent. And that opponent is playing orks or nids.

A lot of people are big on the colossus. I suppose i don't hate it, but I don't find it very useful. I doesn't saturate wounds like a griffon battery, When you finally get that unit to fall out or stay bunched up in an exploded vehicle foot print, it scatters right off of them.

Basically, if I'm facing mass foot models, I'd rather spend equivalent points on griffons, if I am facing transported armies, then heavy flamers and meltacannons would be my preferred method of killing infantry that fell out of their ride.

Basilisk.

It's just so...classic.

Don't forget that the basilisk doesn't have to have a min range. It can choose to fire directly and so ignore its min range and also get to move and shoot!

Another thing people often don't think of is in a squadron if you choose to fire directly you don't have to put the templates around each other and so can just drop three on the same target. Good for small tough squads or single vehicles. Its really good to have that option.

Overall the basilisk is very versatile. If you need to move them they can still fire directly, if not you get a choice of barrage.

Also their long range and ability to fire directly in some ways makes them tougher. Imagine you are going up against an outflanking army (like vets in chim or valk). Place the bassies in reserve. After your opponent commits his outflanking units to a flank, come in on the opposite flank far away from those meltas, unload some shells on the same turn and get yourself in a good position for a barrage next turn. This will really suprise your opponent who will expect bassies to be used traditionally as a gunline setup.

@ frank: I disagree with the entire fabric of your statement that "no self respecting eldar player should be afraid of hydras". You are just flat wrong. They hyrda is for stopping a threatening target (falcon w/ seer council) before it arrives 100% of the time and allowing the rest of your army to do it's job.

It also scores lots of wounds on high toughness units.

The hydra is a support unit far superior to a HW team and the fact that you compared them lends to my theory that you don't really understand the new IG yet. You said,
"you should have more than enough spare shots to negate a 4+ vehicular cover save anyway"
and that cements my theory. where the extra shots may be there, chances are they are tasked to killing the stuff that's going to be spilling out of said vehicle. If they get mis-tasked then you shooting efficiency is reduced and you will lose. Guard is about efficiency, which is why the Hydra battery has a place.

I may be running 3 hydra batteries at ard boys, but that's only if I go sink points into heavy support. Heavy support in general is getting less sexy by the moment. Hell, Psyker teams can throw s9 templates and valks can spam s4 templates while chem-doggys spew ap3. Why do I need tanks?

Kungfuhustler wrote:@ frank: I disagree with the entire fabric of your statement that "no self respecting eldar player should be afraid of hydras". You are just flat wrong. They hyrda is for stopping a threatening target (falcon w/ seer council) before it arrives 100% of the time and allowing the rest of your army to do it's job.

If you need a Hydra squadron to do that you're playing the wrong army. Not to mention the fething 3+ cover save makes no sodding difference; sure the Autocannon wounds on a 2+ and will insta-jib Eldar. Still needs to beat the 3+ save first. And then needs to survive whatever the Fast Skimmers are going to drop on it before it gets another turn.

It also scores lots of wounds on high toughness units.

So do a lot of things. HWTs for one. They're scoring units too, you know. Yeah. Don't take up a Force Org slot and leave your HS free for tanks and whatnot.

I may be running 3 hydra batteries at ard boys, but that's only if I go sink points into heavy support. Heavy support in general is getting less sexy by the moment. Hell, Psyker teams can throw s9 templates and valks can spam s4 templates while chem-doggys spew ap3. Why do I need tanks?

I'd advise you to stay away from the PBSes; people are getting wise to those quick-fast. I'm seeing a lot of DH and WH Psychic Hoods popping up in Smurf and IG lists, and they'll shut down Psykers like nobody's business.

Also, why do you need tanks? Erm... artillery? Long range big guns? To provide juicier targets than your 12-10-10 ChemDogs or 12-12-10 Valks?

Hydras ignore the speed cover saves bikes and skimmers get. Just a heads up.

Those are the only cover they ignore, though.