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The problem is anything the Ogryns can do Guardsmen do better. Point for point, Guardsmen have more wounds and a collectively higher durability. They'll perform better in close combat and at range. Now, transportion is a somewhat redeeming factor for the Ogryns, however (mathmatically) the Guardsmen are more efficient.

Well, yeah. But you can have them both see...durability in CC is still suspect for me between line squads and ogryns, depending on who you are fighting of course...T3 and T5 is a big difference....unless the enemy has a fist.....

But ogryns are not a no brainer non choice as others may claim...against eldar, dark eldar, and orks I'd use them...

freddieyu1 wrote:Well, yeah. But you can have them both see...durability in CC is still suspect for me between line squads and ogryns, depending on who you are fighting of course...T3 and T5 is a big difference....unless the enemy has a fist.....

But ogryns are not a no brainer non choice as others may claim...against eldar, dark eldar, and orks I'd use them...

You can get eight Guardsmen for a single Ogryn. That is 24 for the minimum 3 Ogryns. T3 to T5 is a big difference, but 24 bodies to simply 9 wounds is bigger. All in all I like the Ogryns though, for fun games. They shine against GEQs, which can make IG vs Ork or Eldar campaigns a blast.

DarkHound wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:Well, yeah. But you can have them both see...durability in CC is still suspect for me between line squads and ogryns, depending on who you are fighting of course...T3 and T5 is a big difference....unless the enemy has a fist.....

But ogryns are not a no brainer non choice as others may claim...against eldar, dark eldar, and orks I'd use them...

You can get eight Guardsmen for a single Ogryn. That is 24 for the minimum 3 Ogryns. T3 to T5 is a big difference, but 24 bodies to simply 9 wounds is bigger. All in all I like the Ogryns though, for fun games. They shine against GEQs, which can make IG vs Ork or Eldar campaigns a blast.

Agreed....

Ogryns are cool. What's more, they are finally a very useful unit. Many of the "reasons" posted here are unfounded.

1. daedalus: Charging dozens of Marines that are supported by a strong character and arguing that the charging unit is bad is comparing apples and oranges. Wrong tool, wrong job. You don't use meltaguns to fight hordes either, do you? Also, your Ogryns charged, so they had I3 - but it doesn't make a difference against MEQ's, so why do they need that?

2. Scott-S6: Neither artillery nor massed lasguns will clear an objective any better than a decent round of close combat, especially when there's cover around. Especially massed lasguns are an absurd notion. Sentinels do not make a better tarpit. A single shot can take them out quite easily, not so with Ogryns.

3. Anpu42: Ogryns already have "4 WS-4 S-6, I-3 Attacks each on the charge". "For Cadia!" is pretty useless.

4. A-P: Yes, Ogryns are expensive. They cost exactly as much as a (regular) Terminator - and they fight just as well. Let the Ogryns charge - this is admittedly very important - and between ripper guns and attacks they will kill 2.5 Terminators, coincidentally the same number of wounds as the Terminators' powerfists. Assault Terminators fare no better, as Ogryns couldn't care less about storm shields. Lightning Claws would be better but still there's a good chance of the Ogryns holding them up. Granted, I gave the Ogryns the considerable charge bonus but I think that many drawbacks are compensated. They don't care as much about plasmaguns as Terminators do, and they are probably just as resilient to small arms.

5. Ivan: If you need to kill heavy infantry in CC, take RR or an amoeba platoon instead. Although, S3 has problems getting past T4 as well...coincidentally, the chance to wound is 1/3 - the same chance as the one to fail a save in power armour.

6. DarkHound: You are making up a problem that does not exist. Yes, Guardsmen have more wounds. They also lose those wounds faster than Ogryns. I would have hoped that you had some backup for your position but I don't see how the same investment in guardsmen is any better except at >12". When they lose a combat, they WILL break. When they charge or not, the are much more likely to lose in the first place because your 24 Guardsmen don't have a commissar and no power weapons. When they are hit with templates, they WILL suffer horrendous casualties and so on. They need some kind of support even more than the Ogryns.

I know that RR or blobs are going to be more effective than Ogryn. I thought it was clear we were discussing from a "if you are going to run Ogryn anyway" viewpoint?

We are discussing whether Ogryns are good or useful. That was what the OP asked initially. One facet of this is that they aren't as bad against heavy infantry as one might think but that in this case, other alternatives would be better. I do not know in what environment the OP plays, so it may not be important.

Ogryns excel at being a CC tarpit; they won't rack up crazy kills but look at what Daedalus' squad did; they may not have killed off that huge, scary squad but for the time they were stuck in CC you could have moved up tanks or spent that time trashing the rest of his army in preparation to isolate and outnumber him.

That said, for the points cost I would rather have a squad of Armoured Sentinels which can provide fire support until you need to use them to tie something up in CC; AV12 will indeed be very hard to take out in close combat. Not only that, but look at the points cost; 55 per Sentinel with Multilasers, or add plasma cannons to the mix for 20pts each.

A squad of three Armoured Sentinels with plasma cannons can lay down three AP2 blasts and then charge... if the plasma cannons didn't do enough damage to MEQs, S5 attacks and an armour value will give the average Marine squad a serious run for their money. If you don't have high armour values to worry about Multilasers can lay down nine shots at S6 before rushing in.

...and you get all of this for 165 to 205 points as opposed to about 445 for five Ogryns, Yarrick and a Chimera.

I've only gotten to use my ogryn's once, as I tend to play 1500 point games.

It was a 2000 point planetstrike game. We'd started late so I didn't get much use out of them. However, when they turned up from reserves, they drove up in their chimera, screwed up the rear armour of a wave serpant, then got out and smashed it the next turn. The game ended there, but they seemed like they would have done rather well in it if it continued.

I believe ogryns can do well versus chimera or rhino walls, which tend to be lumped side by side...and they are resilient enough to withstand meltagun shots due to t5.....combine that with support shooting and they can really screw up a mech force of an army..assuming the tanks are not land raiders or monoliths of course...

My main problem with the Ogryn is that for the same points, roughly, they're not GK Terminators. The Ogryn aren't completly pants, but in any kind of competitive army I'll take the Termies every time. If a list isn't supposed to be a rock hard tourny list then Ogryn are just fine.

In general I do think that the Ogryn's ability to soak Melta and LC fire is nice, but in most cases the other guy will just shoot them with something else. Applying ranged firepower to the targets it will hurt the most is a basic tenet of the game. If a guy isn't smart enough to maximize his FP then you should be able to beat him with or without Ogryn.

Fenris-77 wrote:My main problem with the Ogryn is that they're filthy mutants and should be purged on sight. No decent human would fight alongside these disguting creatures.

Fixed that for you.

Owain, Ogryns do rack up crazy kills when unleashed against the right target. I've run down large Ork mobs on several occasions and run rampage through substantial parts of an Eldar army. They will need some kind of support but that's stating the obvious. 250 points of anything, tank, man, mouse or Ogryn will very rarely defeat the opposition on its own.

Armoured Sentinels can do the same only to some extent. They are better tarpits against anything up to S6 but less useful when powerfists are around. They are also much much easier to kill with shooting before they can get into HtH. I would expect my Ogryns to eat a lot more fire from the currently so popular melta-toting squad before going down. How long do you think the Sentinels will last?

...and you get all of this for 165 to 205 points as opposed to about 445 for five Ogryns, Yarrick and a Chimera.

Wow. That isn't a fair comparison any way you look at it. You could just as well say it's 165 points vs. 450 for three Russes, and it would be just as misleading. The latter combination is many times more resilient, packs a real punch in close combat and has very decent firepower - 18 S5 shots, 3 S6, 2 S4 is very probably just as good as your plasma cannon. It cannot possibly go down to three shots, can fire at multiple targets, is a little faster if must be, takes up an Elite slot instead of FA and so on.

Compel, Ogryns are ideal for Planetstrike, especially when you are attacking. Being able to assault right away is pretty cool.