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I disagree, the extra wounds generated by a demo-charge and plasma guns will do way more damage than a powerfist ever could. And i cannot count the times my Plasma suicide squad has killed 10 man marine squads in 1 shooting phase without additional support. (it happens a lot)

I disagree as well Penal legions are cheaper, they can outflank, they won't run in an assault because of LD 8 and Stubborn, and they get one of three special effects BEFORE deployment so they are kinda useful Possessed, and thats a good thing for 80 points per squad...

What about 3 meltaguns + demo charge + fist? Same price, better payoff.

w0chtulka wrote:What about 3 meltaguns + demo charge + fist? Same price, better payoff.

Vet. Squad = 70pts.
3 Meltaguns =30pts.
Demo charge=30pts.
Powerfist =15pts.
________________
=145pts.

that's nearly two Penal legion Squads mate...

Why on earth would you mix Meltaguns and the Demolition Doctrine, especially in a list that needs generalist units. Meltaguns are really bad anti-infantry, and any of these lists lack that in massive quatities. Get Grenade Launchers instead.

DarkHound wrote:Why on earth would you mix Meltaguns and the Demolition Doctrine, especially in a list that needs generalist units. Meltaguns are really bad anti-infantry, and any of these lists lack that in massive quatities. Get Grenade Launchers instead.

dudeeee the point is that Penal legions are better than vets...

Plasma guns generate 3.4 wounds against a meq in rapid fire range. That's way more than a fist could do in 1 assault phase. While a Charging Fist generates 1.2 wound on average. And 3 melta guns generate 1.7

So PG= 3.4
Fist+ Melta=2.9

Penal Legions have no place in an AirCav list anyhow. Just take my advice, please. I played AirCav for a while and I feel I know a bit about how to run it. Power Fists are better than Demo Charges because the Fist won't scatter onto your guys and kill them, plus it lasts all game. Also, Plasma Guns are crap with our lousy 5+ saves. Melta is Assault, as well, meaning you don't screw yourself with Rapid Fire PGs.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Penal Legions have no place in an AirCav list anyhow. Just take my advice, please. I played AirCav for a while and I feel I know a bit about how to run it. Power Fists are better than Demo Charges because the Fist won't scatter onto your guys and kill them, plus it lasts all game. Also, Plasma Guns are crap with our lousy 5+ saves. Melta is Assault, as well, meaning you don't screw yourself with Rapid Fire PGs.

he's got a point...

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Just take my advice, please. I played AirCav for a while and I feel I know a bit about how to run it. Power Fists are better than Demo Charges because the Fist won't scatter onto your guys and kill them, plus it lasts all game. Also, Plasma Guns are crap with our lousy 5+ saves. Melta is Assault, as well, meaning you don't screw yourself with Rapid Fire PGs.

See i disagree with you here. I believe that Powerfists have no place in Veteran squads. They are only 10 wounds strong and have poor toughness and saves. Mathematically Vets are bad in CC even on the charge. 10 Charging vets with a Fist generate 2.7 dead marines, that's really not alot...at all.

Fist generates 1.7 wounds

9 Vets attacking is 18 attacks, 9 hits and 3 wounds. MEQ failes 1/3 saves, thats 1 marine.

2.7 wounds is bad, anyway you look at at.

And I too have been playing AirCav for a few months now, I would recommend Demo-charges over Fists.

You are missing the point. That you assault denies them the charging bonus, as well as ensuring you do not get shot to pieces during their shooting phase. That average is rather awesome, really. You shoot them, dealing plenty of wounds, while assaulting and hopefully beating them on their turn. That is good!

Demo-Charges are 30pt one-shot tools that are able to scatter back onto your own troops, which are usually rather close-together when deploying en masse from Valkyries. Also, Valkyries have big plates to deal with horde armies. Avoid, saturate, repeat until win.

Anyhow, I played AirCav when the new IG Codex hit the shelves and have spent that whole time developing it. I think I have hit an almost ideal list, since it corrects as many of the flaws I noticed during playing.

But you may not assault after deploying from a vendetta. (If it moved at all) So you are stuck there, in the open for a turn regardless. Or are you actually implying that you do not move your planes for a turn (Allowing enemy units to move away) so your guardsmen may assault?

em_en_oh_pee wrote:You are missing the point. That you assault denies them the charging bonus, as well as ensuring you do not get shot to pieces during their shooting phase. That average is rather awesome, really. You shoot them, dealing plenty of wounds, while assaulting and hopefully beating them on their turn. That is good!

Demo-Charges are 30pt one-shot tools that are able to scatter back onto your own troops, which are usually rather close-together when deploying en masse from Valkyries. Also, Valkyries have big plates to deal with horde armies. Avoid, saturate, repeat until win.

Anyhow, I played AirCav when the new IG Codex hit the shelves and have spent that whole time developing it. I think I have hit an almost ideal list, since it corrects as many of the flaws I noticed during playing.

let's see your list..?!

also

HAPPY 1000 POSTS!!!!

Red_Lives wrote:But you may not assault after deploying from a vendetta. (If it moved at all) So you are stuck there, in the open for a turn regardless. Or are you actually implying that you do not move your planes for a turn (Allowing enemy units to move away) so your guardsmen may assault?

Scout is a wonderful thing, meaning you can be upwards of 38" across the board assaulting. Also, you can exit the vehicle before it moves and assault, if I remember correctly. Just depends on the opponent and who goes first and second, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

r3n3g8b0y wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:You are missing the point. That you assault denies them the charging bonus, as well as ensuring you do not get shot to pieces during their shooting phase. That average is rather awesome, really. You shoot them, dealing plenty of wounds, while assaulting and hopefully beating them on their turn. That is good!

Demo-Charges are 30pt one-shot tools that are able to scatter back onto your own troops, which are usually rather close-together when deploying en masse from Valkyries. Also, Valkyries have big plates to deal with horde armies. Avoid, saturate, repeat until win.

Anyhow, I played AirCav when the new IG Codex hit the shelves and have spent that whole time developing it. I think I have hit an almost ideal list, since it corrects as many of the flaws I noticed during playing.

let's see your list..?!

also

HAPPY 1000 POSTS!!!!

I posted a 1000pt list earlier in the thread.

Here is my basic 1500pt AirCav list:

HQ:
Company Command Squad
w/ Power Fist, 4x Meltaguns, Astropath
[135]

Troops:
(10) Veterans
w/ Power Fist, Bolt Pistol, Shotguns, 3x Meltaguns
[117]

(10) Veterans
w/ Power Fist, Bolt Pistol, Shotguns, 3x Meltaguns
[117]

(10) Veterans
w/ Power Fist, Bolt Pistol, Shotguns, 3x Meltaguns
[117]

(10) Veterans
w/ Power Fist, Bolt Pistol, Shotguns, 3x Meltaguns
[117]

(10) Veterans
w/ Power Fist, Bolt Pistol, Shotguns, 3x Meltaguns
[117]

Fast Attack:
(2) Valkyrie
w/ Multiple Rocket Pods
[260]

(2) Valkyrie
w/ Multiple Rocket Pods
[260]

(2) Valkyrie
w/ Multiple Rocket Pods
[260]

[1500]

The last squadron can be Vendetta, depending on the metagame.

oh true sorry i missed that
yeah from what i can see thats a lot of points spent on Valks, with a squishy load of some meltagunners...i've never played against a AirCav list but it looks a bit wonky to me...

Don't forget a demo-charge is still an assault weapon, and i only ever run 1 squad of plasma vets.

Plasma Vets are a generally terrible idea. Shooting three Plasma guns at rapid fire means typically at least a single overheat, which then you must save on a 5+. That is not so great. If you put on Carapace, they just got pricey, which defeats the purpose.

Demo-Charge has a single use. One time and hope it doesn't scatter off into nothing or hit just one thing, etc. Too unreliable and the range ensures you get caught in it at least some of the time. No thanks! Also, that makes them pricey, which as I said, is not what we want in AirCav.

While Veterans are "squishy", they can accomplish a lot when you mass their firepower together. Correct use of orders and proper applications of your forces will help, but it is an inherently fragile army to play and if you make even a slight misjudgment, you will most likely be hurting or lose. I don't recommend it for new players at all, because basic MechVets are far more forgiving and much stronger overall.

em_en_oh_pee you are just taking words from my mouth.. however i think demo experts are taken because of melta bombs... Sometimes 3 melta shots isnt enough.

So.... I do like what em_en_oh_pee is saying.
But... I wouldn't say follow him off a bridge.

What he has noted down is how he runs a AirCav list. It works for him. It works for others. But I'm sure that it's not everone's cup of tea.
_____________

Some random points:
-Plasma vets do look bad, but they have a role to perform in the army. It is rare to find a unit that can not do anything useful for a list.
-Demo Charge: is a risk/reward thing and generall comes down to the individual... some are risk averse others are risk loving otherwise known as "winbig/losebig".
-Fist is nice to 'finish things off', but it generally only applies if you get the desired first turn (which is not always the case)

Other than that, I do like your list em_en_oh_pee. ANd I do like force feeding other people one's play style... but I mainly do that with Chaos lists

Yea, disclaimer. That is my AirCav list and fits my style 100%. However, it may not be what people want. Everyone has a different style, but I think that of the lists out there, its pretty solid.

Both suck, IMO. 2-3 attacks with a power fist, half of which you will lose because of WS... is not what is considered good in CC.

Penal Legion far surpasses the might of a Vet squad in CC, versus other light infantry. Against heavy infantry, it depends on what bonus the Legion gets, and against vehicles... both suck, unless the vets take Demo for the melta grenades. (I'm sorry, but a S6 power fist is not going to do much to even an Av10 vehicle.)

What most people neglect is that IG are a ranged army. They work well in CC (sometimes) because we have the ability to hit them with a demo charge and 3 melta before we assault. This is after we use the Valk's MRP, and slew of other RANGED options we use to break a squad first. If your tactics really focus on WS3 S3 T3 W1 A1 Sv5+ humans... you might as well write off your list now. CC is a last ditch effort on the part of humans. You do this only when you ABSOLUTELY have to. The only race that is the exception to this is IG v Tau, as Tau are the only list than can out range us... and the only list that we can out CC. The other exception is if you use heros like Creed, or a Minisortium Priest to confer bonuses to a squad of infantry... preferably 50 men large. That way you have the advantage of numbers, and bonuses that might put you on the level of an ork boy. But doing stuff like that is stupidly expensive, and isn't a realistic option, and still doesn't help you in fights against armies like Space Marines, or Necrons... which we simply cannot do enough damage to with S3. and with their armor at Sv3+.

Exactly like I stated, a charging vet squad with a powerfist only kills 2.7 marines.

Lt Lathrop wrote:But doing stuff like that is stupidly expensive, and isn't a realistic option, and still doesn't help you in fights against armies like Space Marines, or Necrons... which we simply cannot do enough damage to with S3. and with their armor at Sv3+.

My 30 man Conscript squad with a Priest would disagree. At only 180 points (the Priest has an Eviscerators) they devour Tac Squads, Terminators, Assault Squads, etc.. Not expensive, not impractical. Also not really relevant to the thread, but I agree with the rest of what you said. They do still need to be supported by range.

Thats the whole point its not a problem for vets to assault 2 or 3 marines to finish them off. Then the fist might come handy.

Come on folks, stay with the concept here. Yes, other stuff is possibly better at close combat. Who cares? What matters is increasing the tactical flexibility of the Veterans in the list. By adding a Power Fist, you give the squad the ability to finish off opponents that shooting did not and help keep the squad from being shot at.

@Lathrop - Wrong. IG functions in plenty of ways. I do not run a "ranged" list with my MechVets at all. Its a close-ranged shooty army. The AirCav is a close-ranged shooty army with a need for close combat. If Guard wants to go long-range, they can and will most likely be pretty static, which I find the least competitive option.

@w0chtulka - Thank you. That is the idea.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Come on folks, stay with the concept here. Yes, other stuff is possibly better at close combat. Who cares? What matters is increasing the tactical flexibility of the Veterans in the list. By adding a Power Fist, you give the squad the ability to finish off opponents that shooting did not and help keep the squad from being shot at.

@Lathrop - Wrong. IG functions in plenty of ways. I do not run a "ranged" list with my MechVets at all. Its a close-ranged shooty army. The AirCav is a close-ranged shooty army with a need for close combat. If Guard wants to go long-range, they can and will most likely be pretty static, which I find the least competitive option.

@w0chtulka - Thank you. That is the idea.

My sweet unit for air cav:

Valkyrie + MRP and ML
Vet Squad
Carapace
2 meltas 1 flamer fist
Primaris Psyker

Good armour save
Fist and force weapon
2 meltas will hit what you're aiming at
Flamer is there for hordes and general wounding on 4+ or better for many infantry models
MRP will soften up whatever they're aiming at

Ugh. Don't mix weapons. If you insist on using flamers, just use a squad of flamers (bad idea - waste of BS4). Carapace makes them too expensive, too. With a Fist, you make it excessively expensive and for this army, volume of fire counts for a lot, while survivability does not.

I'd still go for penal legionnaires, cheap and useful...

Sorry...what do the penal legionnaires add to a Air Cav list besides being cheap (which isn't always a reason to use anything)?

I don't think 'combat guardsmen' are what this list is looking for.
It was looking for how to support a squad, who's primary purpose to shoot stuff, following up with a charge to finish the job.

Penal legionnaires do not shoot well (even gunslingers)...are not getting that much use out of being in the rides......outflanking by themselves kills the AirCav theme....

They just don't fit...why continue suggesting them without more supporting material?

This is a bit of a non sequitur, but when you field this army, have a boombox playing ride of the valkeries as background music.