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Anyway, back on topic.

Okay, I would have no problem putting my SM list against yours:

HQ
Librarian Termi armr +SS (avenger, nullzone) 140

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 Pf/ML/flamer/rhino 230
Tactical Squad x10 Pf/ML/flamer/rhino 230
Tactical Squad x5 pw+mb/ Razorback TL Assault Cannon 185
Tactical Squad x5 pw+mb/ Razorback TL Assault Cannon 185

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 3x TH+SS /2x Lcs with LRC and MM 460

Heavy
Vindicator 115
Vindicator 115

Fast
Landspeederx2 Typhoon + Heavy bolter 180

I deploy as far away as possible, castled up likely starting in a corner or bottleneck in terrain. Typhoons grab side shots on the KFF BW while the rhinos start opening up the trucks. Vindicators, LR and razorbacks get in the fight once you enter 30". If I can deny you a good 2nd turn WAAGH its pretty much over, as the damage from the vindicators is going to be too devastating as the game progresses.

I think at one point you asked how to beat mech DE? In my experience lottas are golden for this, DE are made of paper and rage, the rage doesn't add anything structuraly so your lootas can blow their fast but fragile crafts out of the sky. Although this does not go with your list theme right now (mek ork). I always take 2 squads of 5-10 lootas when I play mechanised eldar or Dark eldar, and it always seems to pay off.

despoiler52 wrote: I always take 2 squads of 5-10 lootas when I play mechanised eldar or Dark eldar, and it always seems to pay off.

This is bad advice, as its not all comers but is list tailoring . Whether that is how you and your friends play is no concern of mine, but its not practical for tournaments

Dashofpepper wrote:

In fact, in addition to "how would you beat me" I'd welcome thoughts on how my list could beat raider spam and mechanized IG spam.

That is the only reason I mention lootas, as they are a specific solution, to a specific quanudrum.

I think Lootas are a great unit, especially if you take a full 15, and take three units of them.

They're not really fitting into my theme here though.

My space wolf list at 1850:

Logan
Rune Priest w/term armor/Chooser of the Slain/Jaws/Lightning

1x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xflamer/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino
2x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xmelta/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino

1x6man Long Fang squad w/5lc
2x6man Long Fang squad w/5ml

2 Rifleman Dread

1 Land Speeder w/hb/typhoon

I shoot all your trucks on my turn 1. Even with KFF, any of them will have a hard time surviving. Then your boyz are stuck on foot.

I advance some rhinos at least 6.1" to form a screen for my long fangs and dreads between your transports and boyz.

With no loota support, I don't think it will take more than a couple of turns of shooting to gut all of your transports, including battlewagons w/kff. If I can manage to do that before you can bust me out of all my rhinos and assault all of my gh's, I can hop out of my rhinos, bolter you and take your assault from your surviving boyz.

The key is to disrupt the delivery of all your boyz (a key component to you overwhelming your opponent) synchronized. If I can take your army in smaller bites rather than all at once, I can win.

I'll take my chances with a single deffkopta w/tl-rockets.

imweasel wrote:My space wolf list at 1850:

Logan
Rune Priest w/term armor/Chooser of the Slain/Jaws/Lightning

1x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xflamer/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino
2x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xmelta/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino

1x6man Long Fang squad w/5lc
2x6man Long Fang squad w/5ml

2 Rifleman Dread

1 Land Speeder w/hb/typhoon

I shoot all your trucks on my turn 1. Even with KFF, any of them will have a hard time surviving. Then your boyz are stuck on foot.

I advance some rhinos at least 6.1" to form a screen for my long fangs and dreads between your transports and boyz.

With no loota support, I don't think it will take more than a couple of turns of shooting to gut all of your transports, including battlewagons w/kff. If I can manage to do that before you can bust me out of all my rhinos and assault all of my gh's, I can hop out of my rhinos, bolter you and take your assault from your surviving boyz.

The key is to disrupt the delivery of all your boyz (a key component to you overwhelming your opponent) synchronized. If I can take your army in smaller bites rather than all at once, I can win.

I'll take my chances with a single deffkopta w/tl-rockets.

Are you contending that you'll disembark most of my trukks on turn 1? My army is pretty much a guaranteed turn2 assault army unless everything is kept in reserves, or unless you hug the VERY back table edge, such that I'd fall a few inches short on a turn2 assault. Just curious; thanks.

Dashofpepper wrote:

imweasel wrote:My space wolf list at 1850:

Logan
Rune Priest w/term armor/Chooser of the Slain/Jaws/Lightning

1x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xflamer/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino
2x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xmelta/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino

1x6man Long Fang squad w/5lc
2x6man Long Fang squad w/5ml

2 Rifleman Dread

1 Land Speeder w/hb/typhoon

I shoot all your trucks on my turn 1. Even with KFF, any of them will have a hard time surviving. Then your boyz are stuck on foot.

I advance some rhinos at least 6.1" to form a screen for my long fangs and dreads between your transports and boyz.

With no loota support, I don't think it will take more than a couple of turns of shooting to gut all of your transports, including battlewagons w/kff. If I can manage to do that before you can bust me out of all my rhinos and assault all of my gh's, I can hop out of my rhinos, bolter you and take your assault from your surviving boyz.

The key is to disrupt the delivery of all your boyz (a key component to you overwhelming your opponent) synchronized. If I can take your army in smaller bites rather than all at once, I can win.

I'll take my chances with a single deffkopta w/tl-rockets.

Are you contending that you'll disembark most of my trukks on turn 1? My army is pretty much a guaranteed turn2 assault army unless everything is kept in reserves, or unless you hug the VERY back table edge, such that I'd fall a few inches short on a turn2 assault. Just curious; thanks.

Yep. I can play on my back edge. Even with 4+ saves on your trucks, I have 8 tl-autocannons, 5 str10 lascannons, d6 str8 lightning shots and 12 missiles, all hiting on 2 or 3+ with a minimum of 48" range. Any pen hit only needs a 3+ to achieve my goal. I think I can make quite the mess of your trucks. I screen my gunline with rhinos to help with the battlewagons.

You don't have any gun support. If you had some lootas, this could and would be a different fight as you could pop my transports and get to the grey hunters. Even then, they are going to leave a mark, but it's much more favorable for you. As it is, you are going to have a rough time getting even my rhinos with a 6+ to hit. You could wreck them if you jumped out of your transports, but then that plays to my strengths.

Truk boy squads are just to small. It is relatively easy for marines to deal with 10-12 boyz.

If I get first turn with my list vs your current list, you are going to have a rough game.

Now if I were facing 4 20 boy/nob squads all in battlewagons...

Well, let's just say that's not going to be a better matchup for me than facing trucks. Shooting at av 14 with 4+ cover saves with missiles is not a good matchup. My rifleman are useless.

I think your list suffers from a huge issue Dash. One that a good player with the right army would shove down your throat. Im not saying this as an 'if we ever met on the table top id pwn you' statement, but a friendly warning. If I read your list right its got
big G
mek
4 squads of 12 boyz with choppas
one squad of 18 boyz with choppas
snikrot
burnas
1 kopta
2 wagons

The problem with this is your only serious hammer unit is that wagon squad with gaz and the burnas. Everything else will lose easily to a war of attrition. 12 man boyz mobs are not a serious issue. I think a fast mech army could light your trukks up early, and then work away on your wagons. Even with KFF trukks die fast. My eldar army spits 48 S6 scatter laser shots a turn, just from 2 units. Thats 24 a unit, and likely a dead truck anyway you slice itl. The wagons can be avoided fairly easily. And snikrot isnt a big threat to a heavily meched army. I would definetely add some lootas or something to help you deal with fast shooty lists. Even a tau army could put some hurt down on this if they had pathfinders/multiple markerlights as they could stop those wagons dead on turn 1.

I do agree in that he only has two big hammers, but like any good ork player he has a gak load of little ones. So in a war of attrition (were you are both losing lots of models) the ork player can generaly outlast it's opponent. I do however think that the space wolves army mentioned earlier could put a serious hurt on this list. It's not a sure thing, but I feel that the odds are in the space puppies favor.

despoiler52 wrote:I think at one point you asked how to beat mech DE? In my experience lottas are golden for this, DE are made of paper and rage, the rage doesn't add anything structuraly so your lootas can blow their fast but fragile crafts out of the sky. Although this does not go with your list theme right now (mek ork). I always take 2 squads of 5-10 lootas when I play mechanised eldar or Dark eldar, and it always seems to pay off.

Egads yes, DE hate Lootas.

I'm happy to see conversation has already started on DE as an answer to this list - because I think my take all comers DE list would stack up pretty well versus this Ork list. Certainly I'd have to play it in a weasel-like way and keep refusing my front while tossing up empty Raiders or gunboats to serve as screening units for the near inevitable charge. I will admit I wouldn't feel as comfortable as I normally do but I would be happy with no Lootas on the field. The biggest advantage I see is that I can play Raider wall a lot easier versus you since you've built to give the cover saves anyway. I'll have to keep moving over 6" for the most part to make it a little harder for you to pop Raiders via the planks (but then I move over 6" most of the time anyway. I will say I'm annoyed to see that many planks - most Ork players seem to give them a pass as not worth fielding and I'm just as happy with that thought being in their heads.) Clearly early popping of BWs to dump out either Ghaz or your mobile KFF is a high priority and with the number of lances I have I feel fairly confident I can de-mech them in 2 turns - as long as that goes my way it can become a war of attrition and DE Airforce can work that about as well as Orks and with you being on foot I can initiate the combats with my Wyches and Incubi to make them favorable to me and not to you. If the dice don't let me de-mech you early though then I start to very much question my odds (and honestly even if all is going well it'll get bloody difficult to keep control of the pacing of the fight).

I'd definitely love to fight this list some time to see if I'm assessing it right - it looks awesome.

Thor665, I moved from Jacksonville FL pretty recently; wish we had met at one of the stores for a game! The raider spam lists I've fought have been incredibly close affairs. I take boarding planks everywhere because I want every unit to be capable of anti-vehicle or anti-infantry.

Keep the info and thoughts coming!

Could someone elaborate that space wolves list a bit more?

Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665, I moved from Jacksonville FL pretty recently; wish we had met at one of the stores for a game! The raider spam lists I've fought have been incredibly close affairs. I take boarding planks everywhere because I want every unit to be capable of anti-vehicle or anti-infantry.

Keep the info and thoughts coming!

Could someone elaborate that space wolves list a bit more?

Well if you are refering to the one I posted, I will give it a shot.

The whole point is to get your orks out of their transports prior to hitting my grey hunters and to keep your truk boyz from coordinating their attacks with the battle wagons. If I can succeed in forcing you to get out of your battlewagons to assault my rhinos (because one model needing 6's to hit is not extremely good odds), then I can jump out of my rhinos, shoot you with bolters (along with any gunline support) and take huge chunks out of 20 boyz or 15 burnas and possibly even both. Even if you manage to get me out of my rhinos, I can still dump a bunch of fire on your battlewagon squad(s) if I manage to pop one up close. I have no concerns of being able to cripple your truck boyz. I will pop lots of trucks on turn 1. If I get to go first, I could literally shoot half your army off the table. Grey Hunters can fight well. Very well.

I will get assaulted, but I have an 80% chance of getting my counter attack off, netting me a minimum of 30 attacks before you get to roll dice, assuming no casualties on my part prior to that.

I'm not saying I won't be hurt. I could lose a squad or two. Who knows how it plays out really. But I can disrupt half your army. Also, the Long Fang squad with the rune priest and Logan is no easy meat in cc either. Snik could eat a long fang squad depending on when he shows up.

Any decent competitive shooty list will literally be able to make mince meat out of your trucks. That forces half of your cc troops to slog it out across the field allowing your army to be dealt with in detail.

12 boyz are rarely a serious threat to anything, even on the charge they will rarely dominate and 12 boyz cannot win the war of attrition, they die almost as fast as guardsmen.

Gaz and the burnas are the only things a list should be serious concerned about.

Fast shooty armies, ones that can stay in armor and/or run rings around you would absolutely own this list.
Mechdar, dark eldar, space wolves, I can see a good vulkan player or tau player taking this army for a ride.

One of the ork lists I play is similar list to DoP's list, though I vacillate between the extra trukk or more deffkoptas because I like the disruption they cause and they can often buy me that extra turn for the carnage and can help against fast and light armies like DE who have loads of long range vehicle poppers. The troubles I have seen are people who create solid, staggered firing lines behind bait units through choke points of impassable terrain or vehicle units. The plan is generally to create situations where, if I disembark, I chew up a unit or two and then get hammered by staggered gunlines, or if I choose to stay in my vehicles and not take their bait, they get another round of fire at my vehicles that can't hold out forever.

The other thing that I've run into that are tough are ANYTHING that deny cover saves, as it renders the KFF useless, and anything that can pour sheer numbers of S5+ shots into trukks from maneuverable units or indirect fire. Eventually you fail cover saves, even if I only give you 2 rounds to do it.

I concur with the general consenus that any army with good ranged firepower will give you fits. Anything that can disrupt the orcs coordination (by say, killing/immobilizing trucks) without having to come into danger close (18 inches or less) range will definately be a problem. My normal 1750 list packs 8 lascannons that can be fired at 7 different targets, along with 2 missile launchers that can go into different targets at well. And that is just the 48" range anti-tank firepower. It would be interesting to see what happens too if Ghaz's battlewagon gets destroyed early too. The cover saves from the KFF help but sheer volume of fire will be a problem for the AV 10 trucks.

Don't get me wrong: Its a solid ork list, especially against close ranged or assault armies. But its weaknesses can be exploited by good manuevering and use of ranged weaponary.

Gornall wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:but a list that can outrun you while out-shooting you is nonexistent.

I think I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. Mechdar and Dark Eldar scream to me as armies that can keep their distance and outshoot you at the same time. Whether that's enough for them to win the game is another story.

I just played that matchup on saturday, and I now agree, eldar can outshoot you while outruning you :O My own mech ork list wasn't quite as 'ard as Dash's but it was very similar. Both myself and my opponent were hosed by a lot of bad luck, and had good luck in places. I found that the analogy of "Strongest sword VS strongest shield" works, because it was a tie game. He would kill something, then my boyz would run out of their smoking wreck and kill something of his, plus there was a gamelong combat in the middle with the fortune seer council wailing away on the super-nob squad (each group worth 3 KP by the way).

I will say though, in my defence of that game that I did not play with a wolf pack style as I would normally do. Mostly because i wanted to see how the council would do in combat, and it just wouldnt have been fun to play against.

I realize that I didn't make this clear on my army list, but I thought that the unit configurations might do so - Ghazghkull is in a battlewagon with 18 boyz, and the KFF is in a battlewagon with the Burnas.

I'm not sure I agree with all the...."assurance" about long ranged firepower nuking my army. I've done my share of math-hammering out lascannons hurting my battlewagons; and we're talking about less than 3% chance of a lascannon shot ever doing anything to a battlewagon. In simplest turns, you're going to hit with half your shots. You're going to miss with half your shots. More than half of the hits won't get through armor, and out of the ones that do, I'll ignore half of them, and this is before even talking about what gets rolled on the vehicle damage chart.

I've fought my share of long ranged firepower and mechanized lists; seems like everyone runs mechanized lists now. =p Boarding planks really *do* make fantastic anti-tank. I'm a big fan of running a couple trukks up to a vehicle to get multiple boarding planks going, and I use the grabbin' klaws on my battlewagons to try immobilizing land raiders for auto-hits, and other fast-moving threatening things. I'm not going to make any kind of sweeping statements about my ability to tackle them because every game against an army like that is a concern, involves serious thought every turn...yeah.

Anyway, I'm looking for more "Here's my army and here's why it will beat you" than "You're going to have trouble with..."

Thanks!

Dashofpepper wrote:I realize that I didn't make this clear on my army list, but I thought that the unit configurations might do so - Ghazghkull is in a battlewagon with 18 boyz, and the KFF is in a battlewagon with the Burnas.

I'm not sure I agree with all the...."assurance" about long ranged firepower nuking my army. I've done my share of math-hammering out lascannons hurting my battlewagons; and we're talking about less than 3% chance of a lascannon shot ever doing anything to a battlewagon. In simplest turns, you're going to hit with half your shots. You're going to miss with half your shots. More than half of the hits won't get through armor, and out of the ones that do, I'll ignore half of them, and this is before even talking about what gets rolled on the vehicle damage chart.

I've fought my share of long ranged firepower and mechanized lists; seems like everyone runs mechanized lists now. =p Boarding planks really *do* make fantastic anti-tank. I'm a big fan of running a couple trukks up to a vehicle to get multiple boarding planks going, and I use the grabbin' klaws on my battlewagons to try immobilizing land raiders for auto-hits, and other fast-moving threatening things. I'm not going to make any kind of sweeping statements about my ability to tackle them because every game against an army like that is a concern, involves serious thought every turn...yeah.

Anyway, I'm looking for more "Here's my army and here's why it will beat you" than "You're going to have trouble with..."

Thanks!

I already posted my eldar list and a breakdown of issues we would both face

I know you're looking for specifics, but those are hard to give without scenario/terrain/etc.

And as for long-range firepower, I don't know if that's enough. The reason Eldar/Dark Eldar are mentioned is because they're fast AND shooty as heck. You'll have a hard time ever getting to grips with them.

However, I will say I (Mech Marines) am not going to take very many if any shots at your BWs. My main goal is to kill the squishy trucks at range to hopefully break up your charge into two components. Yeah, Ghazzy and his group are nasty, but I can either feed them speed bumps, block them off with Rhinos (who I know will get popped with boarding planks). That or I try and hit the BW with MMs on ABs or most likely LSs (blocking movement too) and then hit them with my counter-charge unit... PA Calgar and Honor Guard in a LR. Calgar attempts to base Ghazzie and let the HG wail on Orks. Unless you pop your Waagh, I feel confident that Calgar and Ghazzy will about the same number of wounds to each other, with maybe Calgar coming out slightly ahead. The HG are going to kill 7 or so Orks (not counting pistols and other shooting), so you're hopefully losing combat by around that much (banner and Calgar's fight versus your claws), killing off more Orks or giving me a solid chance to sweep.

Burnas are nasty, but if I can get them out of their wagon, I can shoot the tar out of them or tarpit them with a Dreadnought. Same with Snikrot.

Big thing is I have to try and avoid Turn 2 charges and back-breaking multi-charges. If I keep mobile, keep spread out, and keep firing, I feel good about my chances. That would be my gameplan at least, but we all know how well those survive first contact with the enemy.

EDIT: At the risk of being ridiculed, my 2k army list is:

HQ
Calgar in Power Armor
Honor Guard (5) with Relic Blade on the Champion and a Banner and Razorback with HB

Troops
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, ML, and Rhino
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, ML, and Rhino
Tactical Squad with MG, PC, MB, and Razorback with HB

Elite
Dreadnought with TLAutocannon and DCCW

Fast Attack
Landspeeder Squadron (2) with MM/HF
Attack Bike Squadron (3) with MMs

Heavy Support
Landraider (Vanilla) with MM and EA
Predator with Autocannon and Lascannon Sides

Hey Dash....

here is my current take all comers tourney IG list at 1750. If I had to add 100 to it I'd probably wiggle around some points (cut the PBS down to 6) and add another vendetta.

CCS 4x melta chimera heavy flamer

PBS x8 chimera heavy flamer

PCS 4x flamer chimera heavy flamer
infantry squad autocannon chimera heavy bolter
infantry squad autocannon chimera heavy bolter

PCS 4x flamer chimera heavy flamer
infantry squad commissar
infantry squad
infantry squad

vendetta with heavy bolters

vendetta with heavy bolters

3x hydra with heavy bolters

manticore with heavy flamer

manticore with heavy flamer


The problems you'd encounter when facing this list are primarily the manticores. On turn one I don't have to move, so i can fire the missiles indirectly at your KFF battlewagon. That means i get to tag your side armor 12 with strength 10 ordnance. With 2D3 blasts coming down on such a big vehicle, it is highly likely that I'll get a kill shot in the first turn. Even through the KFF. hyrdas are certainly overkill against all of the trukks, but will definitely take one down, and the two vendettas and two other autocannons will certainly account for a couple more trukks. Now there are still 6 multi-lasers left to fire and then either a strength 8 soulstorm or a weaken resolve targeting the KFF unit.

Theres no question that some trukks will reach assault, and that snikrot will get to charge something. I can deploy in such a way as to make it impossible for snikrot to reach my manticores in one turn (by deploying chimeras in base to base on either side of them, and by all 4 of those vehicles being lined up on the edge of the table, or by tarpitting him with my infantry blob.) This means that you'll get some kills, I'll certainly lose some chimeras, probably the hydras to snikrot, and a couple of infantry squads. But after turn 1 and turn 2 shooting phases, I'm confident that the critical mass needed to over-run me will be gone. And I'll just have to feed ghaz cheap units for long enough to whittle down his unit with the remaining manticore missiles, and then tarpit him or force him to go fearless for a turn, and then weaken resolve him afterwards.

The PBS and the manticores are so incredibly vital to my ability to efficiently peel away your threats, that its too bad you can't influence either of those units on turn 1. I know your list concept is just to go full speed ahead and to turn your opponents game plan into a messy, confused reaction to your under-strength boy spam. I like the concept a lot and I'm certain that the strategy works against a lot of matchups. Not elegantly, but orky... However, unless you take something that can shake/stun/weapon destroy/wreck those two heavily guarded components of my list, then I think you might be doomed. Things like kannons, lootas, kannons and rokkits on battlewagons or big shootas on kommandos (side and rear of chimera/manticore is 10) can help you silence those tools of mine before they take your two heavyweights apart.

I'll try and get Nash to run your list against me this holiday break.. he is prepping for a february tourney so it might be hard, but if we can do it, I'll take some pics and write it up.

Eidolon wrote:12 boyz are rarely a serious threat to anything, even on the charge they will rarely dominate and 12 boyz cannot win the war of attrition, they die almost as fast as guardsmen.

But you forget one very vital piece of information. You can very easily drop two or more squads onto the same unit, it is not a question of taking them out one at a time, they gang up as the situation demands. I'll try and make a hoard list that I think could take on the mekanised, my major advantage is that I wouldn't have to spend point to get into combet, I'd have you come to me.

despoiler52 wrote:I'll try and make a hoard list that I think could take on the mekanised, my major advantage is that I wouldn't have to spend point to get into combet, I'd have you come to me.

I think he wins that one, simply because he more than likely gets the charge off, so he gets the +1 S and +1 I to compensate for your greater numbers. But that's just me shooting from the hip.

Thanks Shep!

I've run up against a list like yours twice, and both times it was ugly. In the killpoints one I scored a minor victory because the lone surviving nob from a trukk boy squad wasn't dead (nor the other boy squad that had a nob + two boys). In the seize ground one, I had a lone surviving nob with one wound left sitting on an objective that gave me a minor victory.

Both games were extremely unsatisfactory because I felt like I got cheesy wins.

Have Nash built it and toss it at you - just make sure he uses it like a wrecking ball, with an oddball Deffkopta or two and Snikrot blazing into your back. If Snikrot comes in on the turn Ghazghkull is going to Waaaugh! he's got an 18" threat radius, so if you're against the back edge, he can move on 6", take a 6" fleet to circumvent your chimeras, and get into assault position on your Medusas. Keep that in mind.

Then again, lately I never seem to get Snikrot when I need him. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:Then again, lately I never seem to get Snikrot when I need him. =p

he was never good at taking orders was he?.. haha.

I'll be sure and PM you a link if i can get that batrep up.

It's a good list, relatively fluffy, plus it takes advantage of a lot of stuff Orks do well. It's fairly obvious, so I wonder why you don't see more of it. It's pretty much exactly the list I thought of when I read the new Ork dex.

That said, I a few things come to mind...

First, you have to be mobile against it. If you can run around and pick off a few Trukks first (or even get a side shot on the Battlewagons), you're in much better shape.

Orks are actually fairly crap when they get charged. People tend to want to avoid CC with Orks altogether, but you can't do that forever. Pick off a Trukk, and assault the contents. Force the Ork player to either stop and support the Trukk, or let you kill the Orks inside.

I'd split my force and give up the middle, hopefully with some mobility on both sides. Wherever Ghaz goes, I'd give up that side, try to pick off what I could as they went over there, then relocate everything fast to the other side of my force. Hopefully that gives me enough time to blow away enough stuff that the rest of the list can be shooting up walking Orks for the rest of the game.

Here is my current tournament Daemon List

HQ
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch, chariot
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch, chariot
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch, chariot
1 The Blue Scribes

Elite
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
3 Flamers

Troops
5 Horrors, bolt of tzeetnch
5 Horrors, bolt of tzeetnch
5 Horrors, bolt of tzeetnch
5 Horrors, bolt of tzeetnch

Fast Attack
4 Screamers
4 Screamers
4 Screamers

Heavy Support
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch

How I play against you depends on how you start the game. It then depends on if I get my preferred wave or not. It also depends on if you go first or if I go first. Note this is just on "killing" your army, nothing specific about scenario's.

If you stay on the table you have a decision to make. You are either going to stay clumped up to get your kff save for your vehicles or you are going to spread out. If you stay clumped I will put the 3 squads of flamers in my primary wave and suicide drop them in. The other part of the wave will be the screamers who will land on or around 16-24 inch's away from your front battle wagon or truck. And then the two horror squads will come in somewhere out of your charge arc but within 18 of the screamers. I will then average 2 trucks and a battlewagon with each breath from each flamer lands on target, all I'm looking for is a stunned, immbolized, or wrecked result, any of those are good for me, and since it's a flamer template you don't get a kff save. Anything I stun or immobilize is bait for the screamers next round and then you have the option of dismounting to get rid of the flamers or praying that ork shooting will do it for you. You also now have to decide to stay where you are or split your forces. Do you go after the screamers hanging out back or finish off the flamers or try and do both. If you move up and assault the screamers then their support horror's will shoot you after you are done killing them off. If you stay where you are and kill off the flamers then the screamers will block you off on the next turn. On my next turn my shooty stuff starts to drop and I just shoot at everything out there. I have 17 different units on the field that I can use to movement interdict and block off or insure that ghaz or the burna's only get one target a turn, and if they ever get out of their vehicle (before I blow it up) then I can combine fire on them.

If you spread out to avoid the flamers then I drop all the chariots and daemon princes and 2 squads of horror's, everything will shoot trucks, And if I roll anywhere close to odds I can make it so that none of your trucks can move or are destroyed in one round, even with saying half of them are getting the kff cover save. If you get anyone out to kill off the chariot's or daemon princes, the flamers coming in the next round will fry them. Or the horror's will shoot them. The screamers will drop in and then start performing mop up on immobilized or destroyed vehicles. Here what will save you will be bad reserve rolls or bad scatters for the flamers or horror's coming in. Also if you can catch me in a combi-assault so you can stay locked in. My squads are small for a purpose I want you to charge in, kill them, and then be out in the open for the next round.

If you force me to go first, which almost everyone does against daemons it makes the above much easier to do, because I can block you into your starting area. If you move out it makes it a bit tougher and I'll suffer more losses, it also makes it more likely your orks can make it into hand to hand after surviving the destruction of their trucks (since you are further up the table).

I'm not saying that my list is an auto win but the sheer amount of shots is going to get everything of yours walking very quickly, except for whats in the battlewagons, but if you ever give me good drop zones for sides on the battlewagon's they are going to be in trouble as well.

Daemons are tough. Not sure why more folks don't play them. A friend of mine has a nasty Khorne/Nurgle daemon army. Facing it is always a challenge and the game usually seems to turn on random stuff, like a dice streak or shenanigans with deepstrike.