Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

minigun762 wrote:No big surprise that people take Oblits since they're the easiest to play with. The other two choices rely on good deployment and lanes of fire.
Of course the question must be asked, how important is mobility on a unit that has a 48" range weapon?

Quite simply, not very.

So long as you set-up with a view of the field and aren't in a back corner you'll be fine. My group's board is really built to be Cities of Death (God I love that expansion), so I have to pick up and move sometimes, but if you are aware of your surroundings when you deploy, you should be able to move across to the other street in a single turn. On most boards there will only be enough cover for infantry in the midfield, so you get free reign with your guns.

@minigun762:

Maybe some people just don't like fethed a turn in Dawn of War were stuff comes on ineffectively.
At least that's why I like keeping everything mobile.

If not for Dawn of War, it's to constantly redeploy making the enemy react to me instead of playing static and leaving it up to the opponent to dictate when he deals with that element.

Love me some missile launchers, particularly against eldar. that rule that makes the max strength hit against eldar vehicles limited to 8 doesnt matter, you get the little template for when you crack the vehicle (st4 blast more than enough to toast eldar) - all good.

if Im against eldar - 4x missle launchers as a havoc squad, and an autocannon in every CSM squad. Oh yeah, melta bombs always good too to prevent the tank shock.

Eldar skimmer armies have made a squad of Havocs with 4 missile launchers (usually supplementing two squads of Oblits) compulsory for my serious tournament lists. Even having those three units doesn't reliably do it, but it gives me a decent chance. A Warp Time Prince is another tool I've used a bit; having him lurk near one or two objectives (hopefully with me going second) is another possible counter to the skimmer objective grabs.

I was talking with Sanctjud before that the new Skimmers might mean that Reaper ACs will be finding their way into my army. Something like a "Super Termicide" squad of 4x Terminators, 3x C-Melta and 1 Reaper = 160 points and it gives you alot more added punch for killing armor after you have used up the Combis.

Sounds pretty cool, actually. I usually leave out one combi melta in favor of the lovely cheap heavy flamer. Which makes the unit more flexible, albeit not quite as nasty against tanks, their most common target. I think you're right, though, that the increasing prevalence of some skimmers might justify the investment in an AC.

There's a reason its points cost is so high. It actually has considerable utility. Its no Cyclone, but its what Chaos Space Marines have to work with.

Nurglitch wrote:There's a reason its points cost is so high. It actually has considerable utility. Its no Cyclone, but its what Chaos Space Marines have to work with.

That is an interesting way of looking at it.
I'm starting to think that while Combis are great, Chaos really has a need for more special weapons (assuming you run CSM/PM).
What we do need is some long(er) range anti-tank shooting and the Reaper does that pretty well.

Here is a little bit of math-hammering fun (I did 10 weapons to make the difference more clear)

10 Reapers vs AV12 (most skimmers) = 20 shots = 17.8 hits = 5.9 glance/pens
10 Lascannons vs AV12 = 10 shots = 6.7 hits = 4.5 glance/pens
This means that Reapers are 31% more effective at killing Skimmers then a Lascannon. Not bad really.

minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:There's a reason its points cost is so high. It actually has considerable utility. Its no Cyclone, but its what Chaos Space Marines have to work with.

That is an interesting way of looking at it.
I'm starting to think that while Combis are great, Chaos really has a need for more special weapons (assuming you run CSM/PM).
What we do need is some long(er) range anti-tank shooting and the Reaper does that pretty well.

Here is a little bit of math-hammering fun (I did 10 weapons to make the difference more clear)

10 Reapers vs AV12 (most skimmers) = 20 shots = 17.8 hits = 5.9 glance/pens
10 Lascannons vs AV12 = 10 shots = 6.7 hits = 4.5 glance/pens
This means that Reapers are 31% more effective at killing Skimmers then a Lascannon. Not bad really.

Reapers are fantastic at shotting anything AV12 or less, and very unpopular with Chaos players.
People tool terminators for jumping out of a land raider or teleporting in.
It's almost like chaos players forgot that terminators can start the game deployed on foot ready to pump reaper AC shots into Eldar skimmers or ork truks on round 1.

I think the problem with Reaper termies is that...that's just it.
They have no other mobile shooting that can compliment the Reaper within the unit entry.

At least with loyalists they are flexible to focus on infantry with 24" Stormbolters.
Chaos termies were RAI for close up bashing, just look at the standard TL-bolter.

So, that entire investment is into a weapon that is not numerous, has no support from the squad to diversify roles, and has the opputunity cost of 5 combi-weapoons.

And I think thats why you pay so much for it Sanctjud, is that long range anti-tank is fairly uncommon in Chaos lists whereas its a dime a dozen for Codex Marines.

If we sit back and look at it, loading up on C-Meltas for killing AV14 is also kind of a waste when the rest of your weapons are Bolters and Power Weapons and geared to kill basic infantry.

It's not a waste, you DS in...it's not like you can charge in.
And it gives them a distinct role on the battle field, when done switch over to the next.

Reapers may get 10-14 shots.
Termies will get those 5 or 10 shots (remember it's not just Cmeltas).

DS in, lose nothing and shoot.
After dudes pile out, charge in with bolter and power weapons. Pretty efficient if you ask me.

3 Termy w/ Reaper is the same cost as the 2xTLAutoCannon Dread....I think the TermyReaper cries itself to sleep.

Statistically your best bet is auto cannons.

Reecius wrote:Statistically your best bet is auto cannons.

I would say Tzeentch DP with BoC and Warptime

Str 8 ap1 shot that rerolls its to hit roll

then 5(on charge IIRC) rerolling hits of 2d6 ap. I've yet to not swat one of those gnats with that combo.

Sanctjud wrote:
3 Termy w/ Reaper is the same cost as the 2xTLAutoCannon Dread....I think the TermyReaper cries itself to sleep.

Yep, pretty much. RifleDreads (2x TL AC) are pretty much awesome in a box. Its one of the strongest meta-choices for Codex Marines. I'd put it right up there with MM Attack Bikes or Land Speeders.

Anybody looked at the possibility of a small havoc squad (maybe 5) in a rhino with 2 autocannons (only 2 so they can both shoot out the hatches)? I don't have a book here to run the points, but it feels like one of the cheapest options out there ~130 points?

That is slightly better versus skimmers than a pair of oblits at 150 points, with the differences in movement of course. (One autocannon slightly edges out one lascannon for number of damaging hits versus a wave serpent, and is the same versus AR 12 without an energy field, plus the AC has a small possibility of a second damaging hit, but the lascannon has a larger distribution of pens.)

Yeah, I already did on the first page. If you're going for cheap, then five Havocs with two Autocannons and a Rhino would be 150pts.

Nurglitch wrote:Yeah, I already did on the first page. If you're going for cheap, then five Havocs with two Autocannons and a Rhino would be 150pts.

5/2 seems awful small to be honest. I think the smallest I'd want to go is 6/3 and thats still only 150. Same as a Defiler or Oblit pair but a better meta-choice against skimmers.

minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Yeah, I already did on the first page. If you're going for cheap, then five Havocs with two Autocannons and a Rhino would be 150pts.

5/2 seems awful small to be honest. I think the smallest I'd want to go is 6/3 and thats still only 150. Same as a Defiler or Oblit pair but a better meta-choice against skimmers.

The rhino is why you go 5/2--because the rhino protects the unit better than the ablative wound, and only two of them can shoot out the hatch anyway.

As to the OP. The best way for chaos to kill skimmer spam is with as many heavy weapons in CSM units as possible. I'm talking at least 4 CSM squads with a skimmer downing heavy weapon in each followed by 3 five-man chosen units with skimmer downing heavy weapons. This gives you 7 different skimmers you can engage with per turn (and I'm not even counting what you are getting from the heavy slot yet). The best part is those 7 units are difficult to take down. The worst thing you have to face are DE Ravagers and careful deployment has a chance to mitigate even their return fire. Once you start shooting, though, you should be able to shut down enough skimmers to win the game.

Clearly Darth has yet to Face Valkries/Vendettas and/or Dragon Wagons/"Dire Serpents"... Ravagers are easy to kill, its the AV12 (especially AV12 Antilance, aka Eldar) skimmers that are a real PITA.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Yeah, I already did on the first page. If you're going for cheap, then five Havocs with two Autocannons and a Rhino would be 150pts.

5/2 seems awful small to be honest. I think the smallest I'd want to go is 6/3 and thats still only 150. Same as a Defiler or Oblit pair but a better meta-choice against skimmers.

The rhino is why you go 5/2--because the rhino protects the unit better than the ablative wound, and only two of them can shoot out the hatch anyway.

Then you get your shooting stopped if your opponent can even glance the AV11. No, it is always better to deploy out of it with Havocs.

“Always” is a very strong word. It will depend on what kind of guns your opponent is bringing to bear. 5 Havocs don’t like being shot with heavy bolters, but the Rhino doesn’t much mind. With the Rhino, you have the option to deploy in or out of it, depending on the situation.

That's why having half and half special weapons on Havocs is so useful. They really enhance the utility of the Rhino, and only two can shoot out the top anyways.

As a rule of thumb its best to consider the value of any unit in 40k to be conditional.

Which isn't to say you don't take it. There will be games where you'll need to redeploy your heavy weapons. However, using a Rhino as a bunker for heavy weapons is terrible. It magnifies the effectiveness of heavy weapons fired at it. Outside of the Rhino you'll lose more models, but you'll also be firing every turn, usually to the last man.

DarkHound wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:

minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Yeah, I already did on the first page. If you're going for cheap, then five Havocs with two Autocannons and a Rhino would be 150pts.

5/2 seems awful small to be honest. I think the smallest I'd want to go is 6/3 and thats still only 150. Same as a Defiler or Oblit pair but a better meta-choice against skimmers.

The rhino is why you go 5/2--because the rhino protects the unit better than the ablative wound, and only two of them can shoot out the hatch anyway.

Then you get your shooting stopped if your opponent can even glance the AV11. No, it is always better to deploy out of it with Havocs.

Well at 130 points, predators with lascannon sponsons are probably a better choice anyway. Harder to glance AV13, or can be possessed.

Also I'm always assuming a mechanized army here, I should probably qualify that. So in addition to rhinos with havocs, there are 4-6 other AR11 vehicles driving around the table with troop units and meltaguns.

I see a lot of people trying to sell the auto cannon pred with las cannon sponsors because it is cost effective, but then you have to shoot at AV14 or heavy infantry, or an MC and all of a sudden the mixed armament sucks ass and you have now over payed for that tank.

Specialize units, all day ever day, is my belief.

For skimmers, 8 havocs with 4 auto cannons is going to bring the hurt and they are great vs. infantry as well.

Outside of that, I would say 4 havocs with 4 ML's if you have lots of Nids in your meta as those ML's are going to be the most cost efficient way to splat bugs. And now with TLOS, you rarely have a situation where you can;t draw a bead on a unit so being static doesn't hurt stand and shoot units as much as it used to. Add to that the 4+ cover and you have a solid unit that is hard to shift.

Reecius wrote:I see a lot of people trying to sell the auto cannon pred with las cannon sponsors because it is cost effective, but then you have to shoot at AV14 or heavy infantry, or an MC and all of a sudden the mixed armament sucks ass and you have now over payed for that tank.

If you're playing loyalist space marines, who can get lascannons on more different platforms, plus multimeltas, speeders and dreads that don't go crazy, then I agree that lascannon sponsons on a predator are overpriced.

But for chaos, if you want reliable, long-range, high-strength firepower, obliterators and predator sponsons are really your only two feasible choices.

But the AC/las sponson predator is specialized for killing skimmers and putting wounds on monstrous creatures. If you're shooting it at AV14 or heavy infantry with it, that's an issue of target selection, not army design.

You have Havocs with missile launchers.

Lots of 'em.

@Flavius
You make a good point, but I would still prefer the all las cannon version as then you never find yourself in a situation where the auto cannons are useless.

I personally feel the best thing going for the chaos heavy support is their specialized units, havocs, oblits and defilers, but that is my opinion.