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sourclams wrote:I would love to see Posessed in a Chaos List.

Across the table from me.

At a tournament.

I feel the need to remind everyone that, after upgrades and transports, we're talking about a 300 point non-scoring slow assault unit that can do absolutely nothing to armor and opens up the welcome mat for a Walker to wade in and make itself right at home forever.

If this unit was in the Tau codex, okay, it has a role and is a necessary evil. But it's not, it's in the CSM 'dex, in which practically every single model can fight like an assault marine or better.

Chaos lists don't need more guys that can throw punches. Fast or long range anti-tank, yes, a dedicated assault unit with no grenades that can't outfight many other codices' dedicated assault units and dies to bolters and flamers as badly as models with price tags 5-10 points lower, no.

They need either "something else" to give them duality or utility, or to be such a far and away superior assault unit (WS5, grenades, and an extra ability) that their points cost is justified.

The cup is half full, but it's half full of sand.

Thank you my friend! You've put it all in perspective for me, and now I understand how foolish this entire thread is! What could we have thought, trying to make the best of anything in this codex?! It must be totally down to luck that my Possessed have impressed me. I'll reform my wicked ways and switch to a Fzorgle build. After all, its the only way to play CSM.

Glad you agree.

On to the Flash Gitz Tactica.

My God man, we need to cover Pyrovores before anyone gets it in their head they can be useful!

EDIT: Great, now I'm contributing to the derailment of the thread.

sourclams wrote:I feel the need to remind everyone that, after upgrades and transports, we're talking about a 300 point non-scoring slow assault unit that can do absolutely nothing to armor and opens up the welcome mat for a Walker to wade in and make itself right at home forever.

Scoring is irrelevant for assault units. If you've killed everyone on the hill, almost never matters whether you are getting the points for it or not because your opponent isn't. Besides that, we as Chaos have cheap units to make anything scoring. They are called Lesser Daemons. Slow is relative; there isn't anything in this codex that is comperable and faster, so your point is moot.

sourclams wrote:Chaos lists don't need more guys that can throw punches. Fast or long range anti-tank, yes, a dedicated assault unit with no grenades that can't outfight many other codices' dedicated assault units and dies to bolters and flamers as badly as models with price tags 5-10 points lower, no.

But don't die nearly as badly to weapons designed to kill their archetype, and those bolters and flamers still aren't incredably effective.

sourclams wrote:They need either "something else" to give them duality or utility, or to be such a far and away superior assault unit (WS5, grenades, and an extra ability) that their points cost is justified.

They have +1 S, a +5 invul and an extra ability. I'd take strength over weapon skill, an invul over grenades, and a cheaper Champion over one with a Powerfist. The extra abilities may be random, but they are always atleast worth it. Infact, you can build your army to capitalize on certain powers, especially Scouts which is presumed to be the weakest power.

@Sourclams:

-You have other elements in the list to deal with the Dread, you can flirt with them if you have rending.
But furious chargin/regular str 5 is decent at opening tracked tanks.
-Non-scoring can be seens as a positive thing.
-They are as slow as zerkers...actually they can be faster.
-Their lack of grenadres mean a different role, it doesn't mean 'worse'.
WS 5 and Furious charge is cool.
5++ and standard str 5 has its charm as well.

The cup is half full, but it's half full of sand.

I'd think you wouldn't mind it? Being a clam and all...
________________

Maybe I wasn't clear.
My goal is to look at them on the bright side. I've seen them being beat on elsewhere...granted they have things against them.
I'm not saying they are perfect, I'm saying they are functional and starting a discussion to work with what we have.

My experiences with them have been good enough, maybe others have things to share.
So far you've repeated what countless others have said before you, and I've tried to take them all into account...I think I've gone through my thoughts about most of the points you've made, maybe respond to my points? Right now it looks like you didn't read it, and if you did, forgive me for suggesting otherwise.

minigun762:

Okay, do those Chaos Space Marine squads have Icons? I expect they do, but I'm checking. Because if they don't then the Lesser Daemons are suicidal, because they'll never have an Icon to Deep Strike off. If they do have Icons, its a bit of a toss up.

I'd say either two units of ten Daemons so you don't have to worry about preserving your Chaos Space Marines so much, or the Possessed because they increase vehicle redundancy (Rhino) and you could do with an assault unit. If a Dreadnought charges them, hold it there until a Defiler can counter-charge. You could even, if you're feeling unscrupulous, lock units down with the Possessed then fire your Battlecannons in the same general area.

Nurglitch wrote:minigun762:

Okay, do those Chaos Space Marine squads have Icons? I expect they do, but I'm checking. Because if they don't then the Lesser Daemons are suicidal, because they'll never have an Icon to Deep Strike off. If they do have Icons, its a bit of a toss up.

Of course, I whore out IoCG like its going out of style.

I'd say either two units of ten Daemons so you don't have to worry about preserving your Chaos Space Marines so much, or the Possessed because they increase vehicle redundancy (Rhino) and you could do with an assault unit. If a Dreadnought charges them, hold it there until a Defiler can counter-charge. You could even, if you're feeling unscrupulous, lock units down with the Possessed then fire your Battlecannons in the same general area.

Thats about what I'm thinking. In the end, I'll probably give both of them a try, see if the extra Rhino squad or the 2x10 scoring units work better.

Sanctjud wrote:@Sourclams

So far you've repeated what countless others have said before you, and I've tried to take them all into account...I think I've gone through my thoughts about most of the points you've made, maybe respond to my points? Right now it looks like you didn't read it, and if you did, forgive me for suggesting otherwise.

I read your argument, and I can go through them line by line if need be, but problem is always going to come down to point return for the cost, which is an issue that simply isn't going to go away no matter how Chess Dragon Tactical Rommel Mensahammer you are.


1-You have other elements in the list to deal with the Dread, you can flirt with them if you have rending.
But furious chargin/regular str 5 is decent at opening tracked tanks.
2-Non-scoring can be seens as a positive thing.
3-They are as slow as zerkers...actually they can be faster.
4-Their lack of grenadres mean a different role, it doesn't mean 'worse'.
WS 5 and Furious charge is cool.
5-5++ and standard str 5 has its charm as well.

1- actually you really don't. The Chaos Codex is already pretty short on anti-vehicle, even if you are cramming a meltagun onto every spare special weapon slot that you can. In 5th ed, every unit either needs to have some viability against vehicles, or be so cheap as to not matter; Possessed clearly fail condition 2, and saying 'well I can get rending' is like saying 'well I'll just seize the initiative'. Slow Str5 Furious Charge (on a 200-300 point assault unit) as anti-tank is a tactic of desperation, and being slightly better at it doesn't really make it any more attractive a tactic.

2- I don't see how lack of scoring status can be positive. You could call it a non-negative, but since scoring status is generally free (few troop units pay a premium in points just to claim troop status) it's never a bad thing to have. If you are playing an objective heavy game and your opponent is able to focus on the elimination of your troops, it's already over, and having one fewer scoring unit than otherwise is not a positive thing.

3-For an additional 8 points per model, they have to be *something* more than Berzerkers. On average, they're really not. Other threads have gone into the math on Possessed vs Zerks in a variety of situations, and in a sizeable majority Zerks come out on top due to cheaper models, higher WS, and more attacks. Berzerkers are also slow, but a variety of bonuses in wargear, stat line and scoring status can largely make up for it.

4-Again, I have to say that the entire CSM dex is filled with assault marines or better. The only possible different role that a lack of grenades can be compensated for is 'assaulting units not in cover'. With the 'Nid dex people are gaining a new appreciation for assault grenades. You don't see a whole lot of stealer shock lists, even with their new low point cost, because they simply die to too many things at I1. Grenades are a big deal. WS5 and Furious Charge are indeed cool, I wish Possessed had either.

5-It's "okay". And yes, you can dump even more points into the squad to upgrade their stats, just like any other Chaos unit. How many points is 5++ and Str5 worth, though? 5 ppm? 10? You rarely see anyone take Fabius Bile who can turn regular CSM into mini-possessed for 3 ppm with special weapon options. 8-9 ppm doesn't seem like a fair price after you also lose your gun.

Personally I am a fan of the Possessed. I think people avoid taking them because as has been stated they are not a scoring unit and they don't have access to meltaguns.

I have seen Possessed with the MoT wade through genestealers. They are also pretty darn good with either MoS or MoN. It's too bad you have to roll for their special ability but even with Scout they can be pretty darn effective. I see them as most powerful as a shock troop.

G

Im going to have to agree with sourclams. Chaos is lacking anti tank (especially at a range), and spending 1/6th of your army on possessed...not really heading in the right direction in my opinion.

Ive been making alterations to my list over the past few months. Havoks, Predators, Plasma Dreads, Heavy Weapons CSM squads - and all of them come down to one of two things (or both): Point efficiency and range.

Possessed do neither. Youre paying nearly 2x as much as a CSM for no range at all, no grenades, no fist champ, slightly better close combat and a random ability. Can 2x the CSM not achieve the same role while having 4 meltas, a fist or two, and so on (I realize that these 2 squads will cost a little more overall)?

I think this topic is great and shows they dont suck completely, and maybe there is a list out there that complements them, but I just dont see it. I really do appreciate these kind of topics though, otherwise I would have never have made those changes I listed above.

Night Lords wrote:and maybe there is a list out there that complements them, but I just dont see it.

Sorcerer, MoN, Winds of Chaos, 150
Greater Daemon, 100
7 Possessed Marines, Champ, Icon of Nurgle, Rhino, 277
7 Plague Marines, Personal Icon, 2 Meltaguns, Champ, Combi-Flamer, Rhino, 246
6 Noise Marines, Personal Icon, 5 Sonic Blasters, Blastmaster, Champ, Rhino with Havoc Launcher, 255
9 Lesser Daemons, 117
9 Lesser Daemons, 117
4 Chaos Bikers, 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Slaanesh, 172
2 Obliterators, 150
Predator, Lascannon Turret and Sponsons, 165
1749

Yeah, I'll post my Possessed list! I'm not ashamed of it! I've found the best way to maximize Possessed's efficiency is to take full advantage whatever power they roll. You have to not rely them to provide anything but general melee support when building the list. Usually they end up being shock troops, like Green Blow Fly mentioned, but sometimes they get stuck with counter-attack duty.

@Sourclams:

Chess Dragon Tactical Rommel Mensahammer

I think I’ve found my new sig.


1-You have other elements in the list to deal with the Dread, you can flirt with them if you have rending.
But furious chargin/regular str 5 is decent at opening tracked tanks.
2-Non-scoring can be seens as a positive thing.
3-They are as slow as zerkers...actually they can be faster.
4-Their lack of grenadres mean a different role, it doesn't mean 'worse'.
WS 5 and Furious charge is cool.
5-5++ and standard str 5 has its charm as well.


1- Firstly, you keep saying slow…what is your definition? It would seem you would call everything slow outside of Raptors, Bikes, Winged Stuff, and stuff in LRs…so it’s a problem with being infantry… not the possessed themselves.

I haven’t been too hurting for more anti-tank in my lists and I’ve had my fair share of a Chimera wall with LR support… more annoying than anything else.
Generally when assaulting a tank the difference would be 30 Str 5 attacks or 3 Fist attacks and 9 Krak Grenades.

30 Attacks at str 5 vs. 3 Fist attacks and 9 Krak Grenades.
Possessed get on average 5 results, while getting more results, half will be glances.
CSM get on average 14/4 results, while getting a bit less, the results will be more penetrating hits.

Comparable, though granted, it does die when we take into account meltas of the CSM.

I’m not saying that they can trump the usefulness of CSM, I’m just saying they have their charm and don’t just bend over.

Back to dreads: Hence my suggestion of counter charging, they won’t be in an entirely exposed position to be charged by a dread without another squad near them that has them meltas… if the dread is close by, there’s little reason why the CSM aren’t engaging it, while the possessed do their own thing.

2- Possessed still contest for one. In addition, did not even address the rationale why I had said it “can” be viewed as a positive thing.
In addition, focusing on the troopers, means not focusing on the possessed, and you can you really say they are not lethal when applied appropriately? Even with a high price, their combat ability is still good. It might not be for the cost, but it’s not like they hit like a wet paper towel…3 str 5 attacks from each dude.




3-

Well, what is in direct competition with Possessed, most likely a squad from the Troop section.
Either of these options don’t help the list with “Ranged Anti-tank”…as Meltas at their best would be practically in combat range.

I wouldnt say so. I bring 3 squads of troops. No more, no less. The competition for me would be in the points. With the cost of this squad I can buy 2 dreadnoughts and 3 terminators (would be fleshed out after), filling all 3 elites. It's just my nature of thinking - opportunity cost.


Gear CSM can do lots, yes, there’s no denying it.
But each is a different choice, with different roles, and different combat ability.
CSM/troops are there to take objectives away from the enemy.
Possessed are there to take on everything else that stays away from objectives at the very least.

Im honestly trying to think of a single unit that possessed do significantly better against. Obviously it can depend on the roll (a 6 makes them much more useful), but really, what do they do better against?

Terminators? Id take x2 melta and a fist. Eldar? Possessed are still going to get eaten by their CC units, or theyre still going to overkill everything else. Orks? Theyll still get munched (unless FNP maybe). Guard? Overkill even with CSM. Nids? I guess a few more wounds on basic troops, MCs arnt really going to fear them.

Why do you need a counter attack unit when they dont really outperform the extremely versatile CSM? Im open ears into hearing real situations, maybe it will put some perspective into something Im not seeing?


I’m guessing without that extreme mindset, few will ever get as much eye-opening enlightenment as I have… cause I used to be like Sourclams about issues of Lesser Daemons and Possessed…prob. the loudest mouth over at 40K Online forum against them.

I used to like that too. Before in my mind the CSM had only these options: Prince, Termicide, CSM, Zerkers, Plagues, Oblits. Thats it. Now my list only has CSM and a Prince out of that. Im much more open minded now, especially to anything that will increase my long range shooting without sacrificing too much CC (which is kind of the opposite of this haha).

Night Lords wrote:Im honestly trying to think of a single unit that possessed do significantly better against. Obviously it can depend on the roll (a 6 makes them much more useful), but really, what do they do better against?

Terminators? Id take x2 melta and a fist. Eldar? Possessed are still going to get eaten by their CC units, or theyre still going to overkill everything else. Orks? Theyll still get munched (unless FNP maybe). Guard? Overkill even with CSM. Nids? I guess a few more wounds on basic troops, MCs arnt really going to fear them.

Why do you need a counter attack unit when they dont really outperform the extremely versatile CSM? Im open ears into hearing real situations, maybe it will put some perspective into something Im not seeing?

Here's something I'm going to suggest. Instead of almost ignoring the Daemonkin table, why don't we assume they've gotten the correct power for the match-up? A smart player isn't going to let the Possessed run into a Dreadnought with Fleet. Not saying it can't happen, but if it has you've either lost control of the board or it is part of a larger plan anyway (like holding him still for a Greater Daemon). Just speaking from experience, because my Possessed have come with me in every game over 1k points.

Against Terminators? Rending or Power Weapons makes short work of them. Sometimes I'd even risk Furious Charge if they have mostly Power Weapons (Chaos or Wolves). Eldar? My Possessed have T5, so no close combat Eldar stand much of a chance. Banshees do so poorly it is laughable, and Scorpions and Harlies are worse. Orks? FnP seals their fate, although Fleet and Furious Charge also work wonders with my T5. Those powers mean you'll be getting the charge, and Orks hate wounding on 6's. Guard? Lawlz. 'Nids? Last edition my Possessed went toe to toe with Gene-stealers with Furious Charge, FnP, Fleet, or Power Weapons. Granted, it wasn't a massacre. I'd usually lose the squad while killing the second brood, but it was rarely a bad trade. With Rending I poured the wounds on Carnifexs.

All of this stuff I can't say of Berskers, which I do break out and play every so often. Berserkers have performed better against Orks when they get the charge, but it is harder to do without Fleet, and they get shredded if they perform sub-par for even a round (lacking T5, FnP and 5++). Berserkers do not fight Gene-stealers. Period. They also don't fight Banshees or Harlies, who will get the charge. Possessed out perform them because they are not glass cannons. Possessed are really durable, while retaining combat power to match Berserkers.

One last thing about grenades: it isn't nearly the issue some people make it out to be. You want to know why Gene-stealers took such a hit when they lost it? Swinging after a Tac squad when you are only T4 5+ is really bad for your health, but swinging after them when you are T5 3+, 5++ isn't. Things that are hanging out in cover rarely outclass Possessed in close combat, and don't have the bite to really take advantage of swinging first.

I'm sick of this conversation, how many times have we gone through this? It's right up there with hating on Ksons for random CSM pontificating.

Possessed are roughly as expensive as Berserkers. They are like 30-40 points more, depending on the Icon. They are appropriately better than Berserkers at a similar role (CC wrecking). They can't score.

Either Berserkers or Possessed will devastate the unit that they charge after it's been properly lashed. That's their primary role. Then you have a choice. If you choose Berserkers, you are choosing the utility of using them as a scorer late game if something happens to the actual scoring guys. If you choose possessed you are choosing durability vs. the enemy counter-charge.

The debate should be in terms of durability vs. scoring. That's the big distinction between the two.

It might be something to consider what they can do and when they can do it.

Take the comparison to Berzerkers. The extra attack, pistols, Furious Charge, and WS5 really make the Berzerkers the gold standard in close combat murder.

When they charge.

Without the charge they lose that edge over so many other Space Marine units, that edge being hitting first. They also lose the S bonus. They're like Orks: they're deadly if they get the charge, but learning how to deny them that charge is what players do. It doesn't always work, but doing so turns Furious Charge from a bonus to dead weight.

Possessed always have their S5, and can get specific tailoring from Icons. Lets go with the Icon of Nurgle.

Let's say ten Berzerkers including a Skull Champion with a Power Fist get charged by eight Possessed with an Icon of Nurgle:

Assuming Fleet or Scout, then everyone strikes at once. The Possessed get 24 attacks, 12 of which hit, 8 of which wound, 5 of which are saved. Three Berzerkers die.

Nine Berzerkers get 18 attacks for 12 hits, 4 wounds, 3 saved. That's one dead Possessed. The Skull Champion has 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound, 1 save. One more dead Possessed, for two dead Possessed in total.

The Possessed win by one, probably not even enough to force a No Retreat! wound. Even stevens, the losers are Possessed, right? Nope, otherwise the Berzerkers on the charge would have gotten 36 attacks, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 4 dead Possessed! And that's before the Skull Champion swings...with 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, ~2 wounds (1.48). They won by two instead of losing by five.

So instead of getting wiped out, the Possessed have gone toe-to-toe with Berzerkers and come out even. Except that they're both Fearless so no ground is given nor quarter spared. If the Berzerkers weren't Fearless, then the Possessed might have had the chance of a Sweeping Advance. Of course, that's without the close combat benefits of the Daemonkin table.

Had the Possessed had Furious Charge, then we would have seen them at S6 and I5, so 36 attacks, 18 hits, 15 wounds, 10 saves, five dead Berzerkers before the Berzerkers can hit. Four Berzerkers attacking back means 12 attacks, 8 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, one dead Possessed, and then one more from the Skull Champion. They lose by 3 and likely lose another model to No Retreat! That leaves 6 Possessed locked in combat with 3 Berzerkers and a Skull Champion.

Had the Possessed had Power Weapons they would have wiped the Berzerkers out for the loss of two of their own. That's Power Weapons for you, and ignoring the implication that gaining Power Weapons gives them a bonus attack as well.

Had the Possessed had Rending, they would get 36 attacks, 18 of which hit, 12 of which wound, 2 rending, 7 of which are saved. Five Berzerkers die. Four attacking back would get 12 attacks, 8 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, and one dead Possessed.

There's another result on the Daemonkin table that I'm forgetting, but don't have my rulebooks with me.

You're missing FnP.

Berserkers on the charge get a grand total of 4 wounds against Possessed with FnP and Icon of Nurgle, who will retaliate for 1 kill. That puts 4 Possessed against 9 Berserkers. FnP makes it very unlikely they lose a single model to No Retreat!. However, in the following round of combat, the Berserkers will kill .8 of a Possessed, and their fist will net them another another kill, while the Berserkers lose another model. It'll take the Berserkers a third turn to finish off the Possessed, which means they'll be left in the open during your shooting phase.

Now, when the Possessed get the charge they kill 3 Berserkers, who retaliate and kill a grand total of 2. That leaves 6 Possessed to 7 Berserkers, and they are stuck in combat for eternity. They'll kill each other 1 to 1, except every third round when the invul kicks in, for 3 full turns.

So, no one really wins when the Possessed rolls FnP.

@Night Lords:

1. (Side note: I go with 3 troops too at most points level with my Chaos army.)

8 Possessed, IoCG, Rhino costs 248, which is the standard at which I have been talking about. That would be 2 Dreads and change. Dreads have their good sides, too, but that is a hard comparison.
You have the issue where the Dreads could do nothing for you, unless you use it to your advantage, perfectly doable, but not always friendly.

Both options will take the same minimum number of two shots to wipe out.
Dreads offer armor saturation and provide close infantry support in range and combat.
Possessed offer combat support but handle more numerous opponents better, they have a higher model count for those that like that.

2.

Terminators? Id take x2 melta and a fist.

True, though they have a fighting chance with rending/power weapons/(to a lesser extent furious charge).

Darkhound:

On a 1:1 basis, certainly, but locking down a unit of Berzerkers in a fruitless grinding match has a charm of its own. If the Possessed can lock them down, then a close combat monster can move up to get stuck in.

If the Possessed can catch the unit of Berzerkers and screen anything more tender that they might charge, or provide a 4+ cover save against AP3-, then they provide a service not fully accounted for by their individual performance (though hinted at by their combination of Fearless, Iv5+, etc).

Ninjaed by Darkhound on the Nurglitch thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argg ninjaed again...

Yeah, Sanctjud, you might just want to wait until you get home.

To Nurglitch, the idea that should really be taken away from here is one I learned a long while ago. Support powers (Scout, Fleet, FnP) are for catching non-combat units (Tac Squads, Guardsmen, etc.). However you need the combat powers to out monster the monster units.

sourclams wrote:I would love to see Posessed in a Chaos List.

Across the table from me.

At a tournament.

I feel the need to remind everyone that, after upgrades and transports, we're talking about a 300 point non-scoring slow assault unit that can do absolutely nothing to armor and opens up the welcome mat for a Walker to wade in and make itself right at home forever.

And...I think that pretty much sums it up. OP, you're a great possessed apologist, but no matter how you package a turd as a snicker bar, it still tastes bad when you bite into it.

Dashofpepper wrote:

sourclams wrote:I would love to see Posessed in a Chaos List.

Across the table from me.

At a tournament.

I feel the need to remind everyone that, after upgrades and transports, we're talking about a 300 point non-scoring slow assault unit that can do absolutely nothing to armor and opens up the welcome mat for a Walker to wade in and make itself right at home forever.

And...I think that pretty much sums it up. OP, you're a great possessed apologist, but no matter how you package a turd as a snicker bar, it still tastes bad when you bite into it.

Yeah, now I really need to find you and play a game.

Some will bite into it and some will enjoy watching others bite.
______________-
Is it so much to ask for positive feedback and to discuss strategies and tactics not yet used with (I'm assuming ) a relatively unused unit choice?

That must be hoping for too much.