A Challenge

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**MinionOfDaCube**

Personally i hate stormtroopers

No matter the situation you are paying 160+ points for a 10man squad that gets blown to peices a soon as you deploy them

At best they only manage to take 5 MEQ before complete annihilation

they Are a Waste of points (IMO)

**focusedfire**

Thank you for your opinion MinionofDaCube. Now, "Do you have anything worth while to contribute to this dicussion?".

BTW, Storms can take out 7 MEQ in a single turn. They can also take out 2 TEQ's(w/ss) in a single turn or a Land Raider in a single turn depending upon how they are equipped.

**Ludovic**

This is my favorite and I hope someone will figure out a use for it:

Purchasing Chaos Spawn for your Chaos Space Marines army (as opposed to making them with a Gift.)

**JSK-Fox**

Theoryhammer Time!!!
Theoretically, the infiltrators will be better with plasma guns, as it lets them get just out of 12 inches of any enemy unit if they stay in cover. They then can charge forward and fire all their weapons, and devastate the guys that are nearby.

**QuietOrkmi**

At best they only manage to take 5 MEQ before complete annihilation

Devestator and longfangs are MEQS units that number around 6 men.... this is interesting as I see those around the shop... *goes and writes this down...

**focusedfire**

@QuietOrkmi- Now adjust the math for 2 plasma rifles rapid-firing with 7 Hot-Shots and maybe give the Sgt a plasma pistol. Where does the math take you when within 12"?

**Ed_Bodger**

Fearspect wrote:
Therion wrote:
As a former army officer, when I had a useless soldier, I fired him

Which army was that? You fired a soldier? Care to explain on this a bit? I take it that you're talking about "soldiers" who work for the army but push papers at office buildings? You fired someone because he was employed to use the copy machine and carry coffee to others but always overslept and didn't come to work, that kind of firing a soldier?

I doubt any 40K unit that has a points cost fills the criteria of useless. As long as it has any stats or any abilities it has a use however limited it might be. Pretty much every real life soldier has a use too, even if for nothing else than minesweeping.

WTF are you talking about. People get fired all the time in work-up to and during deployment. You do not risk lives by holding the hand of a liability.

If anything, it is the clerks that do not get fired.

I am a currently serving Officer in the British Army and this is absolutely right. I have discharged soldiers for being operationally ineffectiv3e and refused to deploy others for the same reason. Dash of Pepper knows what he is talking about. The OP doesn't in this particular case.

**focusedfire**

@ Ed-Bodger-Which branch and what rank?
Also, what is your units current performance rating and which active duty deployments have you done so?

I, also, find it amusing that Purported professional soldiers don't understand the difference between "a soldier" and "whole units". Every army has units that are considered to be sub-optimal but still have to deploy and use them.

Unless your implying that a commanding officer has the right to "fire" entire units and companies based upon out dated equipment or because he simply doesn't see them as useful for the purpose the unit is intended to serve.

Now, if talking about specific individual soldiers of noted influence, Go ahead, fire Prince Harry, see how long you retain your position of command.

**Ed_Bodger**

I am not putting my rank or unit on here since my user name is my name and it is considered a security risk. I have deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.

No one has suggested you can fire entire units but you can fire individual soldiers. Units have to pass strigant training requirements in order to deploy if they don't meet them they don't go. Therefore we never deploy a unit that is not up to the task.

**focusedfire**

Sub-optimal units are constantly deployed. It has been that way in the past and remains so currently.
The reason can be:
Unit strength(Unable to recruit enough new soldiers)
Out-dated equipment(Not every unit recieves the newest weapons or equipment)
Ineffective equipment(Equipment that doesn't perform to specifications)
Political pressure(Units deployed under equipped as a show of political force....I am refrencing the 1980's US deployments to Beruit here )
Logistics
Over commited on to many fronts........
.........................
The list can go on.

Seriously, what do you do when you are deployed to an active zone without the weapons and ammunition to back it up?

Real world generals have to deal with these issues and this thread is intended as an exercise that deals with these issues in a fun problem solving way. If you disagree with the exercise or its parameters then please understand that this thread is purely voluntary.

**Ed_Bodger**

Are you a real world general?

Are you anything to do with the armed forces?

It doesn't sound like it you sound like a typical guy in a bar who thinks he knows all about a subject but can't produce a shred of evidence. I'm not going to comment about your country's armed forces but mine don't work that way.

**focusedfire**

I was one of the guys deployed to Beruit, ask around about the standard ammo load outs prtor to the Barracks bombing.

Or we could look at current deployments where the soldiers are having to find their own body armour.

As to your countries forces, well they haven't committed to a major fight on any real scale since the Falklands. So the lack of reference is understandable. When you send only one or two units to a conflict it is easy to send properly equipped units.

I now refer you to my previous post and ask, "Do you seriously expect us to believe that you would fire Prince Harry?"

**Ed_Bodger**

Prince Harry is irrelevant we can't deploy him anymore because one of your countrys newspapers told the world he was in Afghan and we promptly sent him home.

We have had around 20,000 soldiers deployed to Afghan for the last five years I grant you that compared to the size of your army that is not huge but it is still a significant deployment.

So in effect yes we did fire Prince Harry.

**focusedfire**

Was our understanding that he volunteered to return so as to not put his fellows in danger and latest rumor has it that he is looking to return sometime soon.

While I agree that the reporter should be disappeared for a while, I do not agree that your reply was an honest attempt to answer. It was an evasion.

I'll put the question a bit more specifically and then ask that we put the thread back on topic after your answer.

If Prince Harry was under your command and his performance was substandard or unexceptable,Would you Fire him?".

**Fearspect**

I ran 2x IG Stormtroopers in my 'Ard Boyz list kitted out like this:

5x Stormtrooper (2 Meltaguns) w/ Chimera 160 points

The Chimera tends to deploy empty to let my allies embark and the stormtroopers deep strike aggressively (thanks to their rerolls) to deal with cleanup. 4+ to come on turn 2.

A solid unit, I don't know why you are acting like it is bad, Guard have no useful elites options other than them.

**Ed_Bodger**

Yes. If his performance would put the lives of my soldiers in jeopardy then I would not let him deploy. I could not fire him but if I could I would make sure he stayed at home.

**focusedfire**

@Ed-Thank you for the admission that it might not be up to you.

I will say that I wish more of our elite families had individuals who showed the bravery and talent of Englands Prince Harry.
I also apologize for putting you on the spot and for the suggestion that he might be other than a shining example of what a British soldier should be. I was merely making a point.

@Fearspect-I personally don't believe that they are bad but there are so many whom claim such that I figured I would put them in here. Please read upthread and you will get a more detailed reason of why this unit was put up for discussion.

**JourneyPsycheOut**

I personally like putting stormtroopers into a chimera and outflanking them. Taking cheap five man squads and firing out of that chimera to your hearts content. It's a great harassing unit that do a lot of damage up close. Most units in the back won't be geared for close range fighting, so you usually have a big advantage against them. You can bump the squad up to 10 for a better assaulting or rapidfiring presence. Shooting 10 hot-shot las pistols at a squad of marines and then assaulting them will usually put them down for the count.

**Ed_Bodger**

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:I personally like putting stormtroopers into a chimera and outflanking them. Taking cheap five man squads and firing out of that chimera to your hearts content. It's a great harassing unit that do a lot of damage up close. Most units in the back won't be geared for close range fighting, so you usually have a big advantage against them. You can bump the squad up to 10 for a better assaulting or rapidfiring presence. Shooting 10 hot-shot las pistols at a squad of marines and then assaulting them will usually put them down for the count.

No worries mate always good to have a bit of heated debate on Dakka.

**focusedfire**

Thanks Ed

@All Posters- It seems that the storm troopers have run a short but definitive course so I'm moving to the thread forward.

The next unit is the Leman Russ Punisher.

Again this is a unit that I personally feel is fine but due to its being a niche unit it is not seeing much use.

Please post the conditions in which you feel this unit is viable.

**DarkHound**

The Punisher is a clean-up unit for an army that includes a lot of templates elsewhere. Templates have a terrible time getting rid of small model count units (ie, ones they just bombarded). I intend to take one in my Renegade Armored Battlegroup. Now, in regular Guard you'll need to take Pask with him. If you've got a Paskisher, a Manticore or two and some template spewing Valkyries you're good to go. Take a couple Vendettas, and some Meltavets and you're anti-armor is covered too.

If you go all out on the Paskisher and get sponson Heavy Bolters too, it becomes effective at engaging AV up to 11, MCs, MEQs and lower. However it isn't a cost effective option.

**Necrosis**

Give the punisher pask and a bunch of heavy bolters and watch it just mow down units. Although that would probably cost a lot of points.

**Fearspect**

SM Whirlwind would be a better option, the Punisher is useful.

**Necrosis**

But then again if the punisher has Pask with all those upgrades he might be able to kill a monstrous creatures due to all the shots and re-rolls and maybe glance rhinos to death.

**JSK-Fox**

Punisher with Pask kills their MCs.

'My Punisher shoots from aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way across the table, and kills your MC. I. Kill. Your. MC. I kill them all!!!'

Whirlwind is an effective unit for clearing out large amounts of weaker units, IMO.

**focusedfire**

@Darkhound- I have been thinking about how the newer codices are being written.

It seems that the older codices were designed for to play at the 1250-1750 point level, but since Apoc & 5th ed arrived the armies being updated seem to be geared more towards 2000+ point games.

These newer codices have been for the most part very competitive, but have odd units sprinkled through them that most people dismiss as not being "Competitive".

A few of these odd units are obviously intended for high point Apoc missions, but the other units people tend to just write off as being fluffy. At some point these thoughts become dogmatic and people no longer explore the units possibilities.

When a unit gets classified as such and people start to use the absolutes of "never use" or "must use" I question the validity of these dogmatic absolutes.

What I have found is that some of these units do have uses and ae cost effective when used in unconventional ways and at specific points levels.

An example would be the Tau Vespids. At one point they were and sometimes still are considered a complete waste of a precious FA slot.

At the normal tournament points levels of 1750, their absence from a conventional Tau force is understandable.
But, drop the points down to a 1000 points or less where Pathfinders become inefficient or alter your Tau force to where to be more aggressive in claiming objectives and the Vespids become a objective clearing unit that leaves your battlesuits free to focus on what they are good at.

I feel that the Punisher amongst others might be one of these type units. A unit that lets you juggle your FoC in a lower point level game to provide VoF.

What do you think?

**Ed_Bodger**

One of my friends is the best guard player I have ever met, uses two punishers in his list. Combined with a manticore a death strike missile 2 Vendettas and a lot of mech infantry they are scarily effective. The Mech Inf has the armour popping weapons the two punishers hose all the troops. 40 Heavy shots means a unit dies per turn.

**DarkHound**

focusedfire wrote:I feel that the Punisher amongst others might be one of these type units. A unit that lets you juggle your FoC in a lower point level game to provide VoF.

What do you think?

Interesting, and yes you may be right. For all its faults, the Punisher does have better firepower than an equal number of Guardsmen (at range). Mechvets and other armies that can't use unweildy numbers of infantry can get the same firepower in a more compact form.

**focusedfire**

@Darkhound-Let me know if you try this and how it works. I've been having a bit of success with juggling the FoC to make unconventional yet effective Tau lists.

@All Posters- I would like to open the floor for suggestions. Someone suggest a unit that is often maligned but you feel has or might have in-game uses that are not being recognized.

The first person to post will name the unit and then we all discuss it for a bit. When the discuion slows then I will call for the next unit and the process will be repeated. Remember that these are to be units that many consider to be sub-optimal.

**DarkHound**

Oh man, I've got several good ones: Tank Bustas, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Bikers... but I think I'll choose Ork Warbuggies.

I run my buggies with anything, although I'm growing more fond of Skorchas. Two or three of them Tank Shocking 12" can force the enemy into very tight formations, which are great for dropping templates on. Generally they don't survive after that, but they're so cheap its easy to get a return on your investment.