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well I included what I thought was solid and would work. These are the probles I have with the two I missed out:

Watched over- 2/3 of the time all of the effort used to kill him gives nothing to the opposing player. Odds are you would have to send a lot of fire cypher's way and in the end you'd get nothing most of the time. He's either 4 KP's to dark angels or more likely, nothing. the whole game will very likely hang on 1 roll of a dice, which I think is stupid. Its a good idea but if you wanted it I think it would have to be re-thought.

Divine protection- coupled with watched over, no only may he not die and conseed multiple KP's but he will (for being killed) be 12" closer to being able to escape. seem's odd to give im an advantage for dying.

see the issues? he's not lucius the eternal, he shouldn't benefit from dying

Aww Im not used to play with cypher without watched over.

Cypher needs BS6 at least.

but doesnt rules say that there can be only 1 re-roll?

BS5 with rerolls is far better than BS6

@goggari- If you can think of a way to incorporate watched over then I'd love to hear

My english is not so good so i dont know what incorporate means ... but here's my new rules i made while ago:
CYPHER, THE FALLEN ANGEL 225pts

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Cypher 5 5 4 4 3 5 3 10 3+


Special rules
Independent Character Gunfighter
Eternal Warrior , Fallen
Fearless , Preferred Enemy: Dark Angels
Unique , 3+ Invulnerable Save
Watched Over , Divine protection

Unit type
Infantry Wargear
Dextra
Sinistra
C'tan phase knife


Gunfighter
Gunfighter- Cypher is a master of pistol fighting and is able to hit a target that would be untouchable to any other marksman. If Cypher doesn’t move in the preceding movement phase he may fire both of his pistols at double the normal range (24”) if he does move, he may fire both weapons and re-roll any fails to hit. In close combat his accuracy is so good that he can guide his rounds into vulnerable areas, slipping through tiny gaps in armour or into a fleshy spot to deliver a round directly into the foes’s skull, therefore his attacks ignore armour saves in close combat.

Dextra and Sinistra
This pair of Unique pistols have always been Cypher's favored weapons, and he always keeps them at his side. Dextra is a plasma pistol, and Sinistra is a Bolt pistol. They allow Cypher to wounds when shooting.

Fallen
Cypher is worth double victory points to Dark angel player

Watched Over
Cypher has the uncanny ability to evade defeat or capture, despite the number of forces which seek his death/imprisonment. If Cypher is reduced to his last wound, roll a D6. On a roll of 3+, remove him from the board. He confers no assault resolution or kill points to the enemy, he has simply vanished.

The Lion Sword
Cypher is only rarely seen and from the few scattered reports of his sighting’s, imperial Inquisitors believe him to be slowly making his way towards holy Terra carrying a mighty relic of the Dark Angel's chapter- The Lion Sword . If Cypher is killed he counts as 2 kill points for the opposing team. If he is still alive at the end of the game, or manages to leave play by moving off the enemy’s board edge, the controlling player gets 3 Kill points in annihilation mission. He counts as holding 1 additional objective during any other mission, it is still held by the Chaos player if Cypher moves off the enemy's board edge and is automatically claimed if cypher is defeted.

C'tan phase knife
C'tan phase knife is weaker than its larger cousin blades, he may ignore invulnerable saves. This means Cypher may ignore both armour and invulnerable saves.

Divine protection
If cypher rolls 1 on his Watched over roll, he comes back alive with 1 wound and rules: Watched over, Eternal warrior and gunfighter are removed, in addition he gains: Fleet, Slow and Purposful, Preferred enemy and Furious charge Universal rules.

It sort of means getting it to work with everything else

are those rules the same as the ones you posted before or have you made changes?

Not much of change, he may still ignore invulnerable and armour, he has watched over, new gunfighter etc.
Only change is divine protection: If cypher rolls 1 on his Watched over roll, he comes back alive with 1 wound and rules: Watched over, Eternal warrior and gunfighter are removed, in addition he gains: Fleet, Slow and Purposful, Preferred enemy and Furious charge Universal rules.

right lads i've read these cypher rules several times now and i think there is some very good bits and some not so good bits.

first off, stat line, BS 6 is a must have, both his pistols should be master crafted (or just count as twin linked due to his skill). He should always count as having a power weapon in combat due to his skill with his pistols, and maybe the pistols count as master crafted in combat so he gets 1 reroll)

the C'tan Phase Knife is a no no, as he lost that during a brief skirmish with a c'tan, which was written in his heroes and villains article.

the lion sword should mean that all dark angels hate him, but he himself was never given preferred enemy in the old rules or even in the background.

Also if he dies he should count as giving the enemy 2 kill points in a kill points mission except that on a role of 3+ they don't count due to him mysteriously being whisked off by an unknown power (as it was in 3rd ed rules). In objective games i think it would only count as a second objective if the opponent is using a Dark Angel Army or the player with cypher is using a fallen angel force.

will also write up rules for fallen angels asap and also get some rules for that old Iyanden Special character Iyana

@ Sgt.Roadkill- I'm all for having a higher BS, but i havn't had time to check the rules to see if you are allowed to re-roll to hit after you have re-rolled for having a BS of higher than 5. If you cant, it would be a hinderance to have BS6, I'm sure it would be okay, but i dont know how its worded in the rules. I know you can never re-roll a dice more than once but i dont know how it works with higher BS values.

master crafted in CC would be fine I reckon, and I think the phase knife shouldn't be included either. Whats your view on allowing him to escape? its a different touch that i thnk could make him interesting to play.

Looking forward to hearing your plan for Iyana, I've been thinking about rules for Solitaire as well. I'll post them once I've figured it out in my own head

for every BS you have higher than 5 you get a re-roll which incrementally increased for each point you are higher than 5, for example, BS7 means you hit on a 2+ with a reroll of 5+.

well thats what i was trying to represent with the 3+ to avoid conceding victory points when he is killed, as it kind of harks back to his 2+ save to avoid conceding vp or being captured by Dark Angels in 3rd ed. i think its the only viable way to do it in the current edition without over complicating the character. It may also be worth looking at creating another thread for completed characters once they are playtested or in a decent enough state etc. i will check poitns costs of similar characters and stats once i get a chance

I also kind of want to Bring Back Naaman as well

I know how higher BS works, the thing im not sure about is if (for example) a model with BS7 was also twin linked. the rules state that no dice can be re-rolled more than once. So if you rolled a 1 when firing the pistol and then had to re-roll a 5+ because of BS7, would you then not be allowed to roll for twin linked on a 2+??

I was going to make either an article or another thread for all of them once we have established a fair set of rules and a point cost.

I dont have such an in depth knowlege of races other than Eldar and Chaos, so if you or anybody know of any clasics that need reviving, then go crazy

ahh i get you, and yeah your assumption that only 1 reroll is allowed is correct.

i am tempted to suggest that he be given eternal warrior, as he does seem to have a supernatural skill at avoiding death... but maybe thats to far...

and yeah i will have a read through some of the old codex whcih are about and see which might be worth re-writing.

Gorechild wrote:CYPHER, THE FALLEN ANGEL ----- points

WS-5 BS-6 S-4 T-4 W-3 I-5 A-3 Ld-10 Sv-3++

Special rules:
Independent Character, Unique, Eternal Warrior, Fearless, Gunfighter, Fallen, Watched over.

Unit type- Infantry

Wargear- Dextra and Sinistra, Lions sword


Gunfighter- Cypher is a master of pistol fighting and is able to hit a target that would be untouchable to any other marksman. If Cypher doesn’t move in the preceding movement phase he may fire both of his pistols at double the normal range (24”) if he does move, he may fire both weapons (12") and re-roll any fails to hit. In close combat his fire his shots with such accuracy that he can guide his rounds into weak points in armour or into an exposed fleshy spot to deliver a round directly into the foes’s skull, because of this precision his attacks ignore armour saves in close combat.

Dextra and Sinistra- This pair of Unique pistols have always been Cypher's favored weapons, and he always keeps them at his side. Dextra is a plasma pistol, and Sinistra is a Bolt pistol. They allow Cypher to Re-roll any failed wounds when shooting.

Fallen- All units from the Dark Angels Codex have the Prefered enemy special rule when attacking Cypher. In addition, Cypher is worth double victory points to Dark angel player

The Lion Sword- Cypher is only rarely seen and from the few scattered reports of his sighting’s, imperial Inquisitors believe him to be slowly making his way towards holy Terra carrying a mighty relic of the Dark Angel's chapter- The Lion Sword . If Cypher is killed he counts as 2 kill points for the opposing team. If he is still alive at the end of the game, or manages to leave play by moving off the opposing players board edge, the controlling player gets 3 Kill points in any appropriate mission. He counts as always holding 1 additional objective during any objective based missions, it is still held by the Chaos player if Cypher moves off the enemy's board edge and is automatically claimed by the army that killed him if cypher is defeted.

Watched Over- Roll a dice after Cypher looses his final wound, on the result of a 4+ Cypher has cheated death again and escaped. He is removed from the board but does not count as having been killed, the opposing player gains no victory points, and in objective based games cypher retains the objective.

That is a slight re-work of my most recent idea. Would you say that looks good? ive changed your idea from 3+ to 4+ to make it a little more ballanced, what do you think? I think we're getting there with rules, now its just points that need sorting.

I've had some eldar charecters in my head for a while now. Perfect oppertunity to write them up in draft and get feedback, feel free to take some of the rules for inspiration and create better versions.

Iyana - points?
WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 2 I 5 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 4++

Iyana is equiped with a singing spear, shuriken pistol and rune armor.
Iyana has the psychic power Fortitude of the ancients
This power may be cast at the start of the eldar turn, and will last until the start of the next eldar turn. Any unit consisting of at least one wraith (guard or lord) may gain USR: FNP
Iyana may take upto 2 wraithlords as a retinue, this unit may not be joined by any other characters, these wraithlords may be armed as normal but are WS 5 and BS 5 and cost an extra X points. In addition as long as one wraithlord is alive iyana may be ignored for wound allocation.
High Spiritseer: Iyana's spiritseer range is increased to 24"

----------

Solitare - points? (lots...)
WS 7 BS 6 S 3 T 3 W 3 I 8 A 4 Ld 10 Sv 4++

Fleet of foot. Eternal warrior. Fearless (conferred to his unit)
The solitare is armed with a solitares kiss, holo-suit, flip belt, neural pistol.
Solitares kiss: This is a CCW that add +2 attack on the charge rather than +1, This weapon never required worse than a 4+ to wound, ignores armor saves, and causes ID
Holo-suit: A solitares holo suit grants a 4+ invilnerable save
Flip belt: A solitare ignores difficult and dangerous terrain
Neural pistol: This pistol has the following profile:
Range 12" S X AP D6 Type Assault 3 pistol
Neural pistol count as S8 but treats a models LD value as its T when wounding (including for ID)

The solitare may not join any unit other than harleqiuns.
Souless: Any unit, friend or foe within 12" of the solitare has their Ld reduced to 7
Death incarnate: To attack a solitare is to invite death itself, any unit wishing to shoot, charge or attack the solitare must first pass a morale test.
Blinding speed: If the solitare is alone he may fleet 2D6"
Devestating charge: A solitare, like other harlequins has the USR: Furious charge and Hit and Run. In addition the solitare may re-roll any missed hits in the first round of close combat

note: hopefully not too OP, i can still see some units tearing him apart of blowing him to bits

----------

Nardhu- points?
WS 6 BS 6 S 3(6) T 3(5) W 3 I 6 A 3 Ld 10 Sv 2+/4++

Nardhu rides atop a warbike (viper, treat it as a large jetbike) and as such he has increased stats, +2T and a 2+ save (included in profile)
Spear of Saim-hann: Nardhu carries the war spear of his craftworld, and ancient relic from the glory days of old. This spear doubles his S, ignores armor saves, and allows 2D6 for armor penetration
Rider's warcry: Nardhu may only join units mounted on jetbikes. Narshu and his unit gain the USR:Hit and run, furious charge and skilled rider.

Nardhu's warbike has a modified shuriken cannon with the following stats.
Range 18" S 6 AP 5 Type Assault 5, rending

Nardhu is an autarch and as such has the master strategist rule.

----------

Bit of a rush job on all 3, i think nardhu needs the most work, solitare may need toning down... or maybe some slight rule changes. Any help with the points would be appreciated.

Iyana - Wraithlord retinue is a bad idea I think, wraithguard possibly but not lords. Giving FNP to any wraithguard for +5 points or a lord for +15 would be interesting (Similar to mad dok grotsnik being able to give any orks invulnerable saves). She would make for a characterful Iyanden special chatracter. She could be a farseer able to cast 1 power (can choose from all eldar farseer powers) a turn and constantly has "Fortitude of the ancients" effecting wraiths within 12", giving a 5+ Inv save? its fairly different to your suggestion but I like the idea. It would end up being a "must have unit" for Iyanden players, but that's not too bad as it reflects the craftworld well. Thoughts?

I like soitaire, I'll have a look at it in more detail later, It doesnt seem OP to the point that its stupid, priced resonalby it should be fine.

Im not farmiliar with Nardhu? can you fill me in briefly?

Gorechild wrote:Iyana - Wraithlord retinue is a bad idea I think, wraithguard possibly but not lords. Giving FNP to any wraithguard for +5 points or a lord for +15 would be interesting (Similar to mad dok grotsnik being able to give any orks invulnerable saves). She would make for a characterful Iyanden special chatracter. She could be a farseer able to cast 1 power (can choose from all eldar farseer powers) a turn and constantly has "Fortitude of the ancients" effecting wraiths within 12", giving a 5+ Inv save? its fairly different to your suggestion but I like the idea. It would end up being a "must have unit" for Iyanden players, but that's not too bad as it reflects the craftworld well. Thoughts?

I think she has a "pet" wraithlord in the old eldar codex but wraithguard do seem a better choice, i never thought about that
The invun save would be more usefull as some, if not most fire (lascannons, plasma, heavy ordinance) coming at them would ignore FNP anyway.

Iyana - points?
WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 2 I 5 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 4++

Iyana is equiped with a singing spear, shuriken pistol, runes of witnessing, ghost helm and rune armor.
Iyana has the psychic power Fortitude of the ancients, she may also choose one power from the Farseer list.
Fortitude of the ancients: Any unit consisting of at least one wraith (guard or lord) may gain within 12" of Iyana gains a 5+ invulnerable save, this power is always in effect and acts like a warlock power.
Iyana may take a unit of wraithguard as a retinue (minus the warlock), these wraithguard are WS 5 and BS 5 and cost an extra X points. In addition as long as one wraithguard is alive iyana may be ignored for wound allocation. A full unit starting with 10 wraithguard with Iyana will be able to claim objectives.
High Spiritseer: Iyana's spiritseer range is increased to 24"

Getting better?

Gorechild wrote:Im not farmiliar with Nardhu? can you fill me in briefly?

http://www.freewebs.com/eldarcraftworld/nuadhu1.jpg
Ok, my memory is more foggy than i remember...
his name was Nuadhu... close but no biscuit.
He was the wild rider cheiftan for saim-hann.
Basically from what i remember his old rules were similar to that of absural vect (fast skimmer dread type thing) but i wanted to move away from the vehicle class.

Iyana Is looking better, I wouldnt say "may also choose one power from the farseer list", I'd say it should be more like Eldrad (having all the powers) but only being able to use one a turn. Otherwise you'd have a special character who whould have a variable point cost depending on the power they pick. I'd suggest she doesnt get the wraith guard as a retinue, just say whenever she is with a unit of wraithguard she is ignored for wound allocation. Any unit of wraiths she is with becomes scoring. that way, small units without a warlock will still be able to hold objectives.

I'm at work, I cant get on freewebs :(

Iyana V1.3 - 185 points?
WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 3 I 5 A 1 Ld 10 Sv 4++

Independant character, Unique, Fleet of foot.
Iyana is equiped with a singing spear, shuriken pistol, runes of witnessing, ghost helm and rune armor.
Iyana has the psychic power Fortitude of the ancients, she also has all of the Farseer powers.
Fortitude of the ancients: Any unit consisting of at least one wraith (guard or lord) within 12" of Iyana gains a 5+ invulnerable save, this power is always in effect and acts like a warlock power.
If Iyana joins a wraithguard unit she may be ignored for wound allocation. A Wraithguard unit of any size will be able to claim objectives while she remains a part of it.
High Spiritseer: Iyana's spiritseer range is increased to 24"

Going with the Farseer powers and IC ability i've modified her stats to be more along the lines of an actual farseer rather than a 2 wound warlock. Ld upto 10, wounds upto 3. Keeping BS and WS at 4 for now as i hardly see her role as being combat proficient

Regarding nuadhu, imagine someone riding a vyper where the gun would be, give this guy a big spear and hey presto, instant mental image.

Lord Commander Solar Macharius



WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
W: 4
I: 5
A: D3+1
LD: 10
Sv: 4+/3+

Replace one company commander with Lord Solar Macharius.

Wargear: Master-crafted bolt pistol, master-crafted power weapon, carapace armor (save already modified above), trademark item (crimson cloak), Helm of Macharius.

Special Rules:

Commanding Presence. Any Imperial Guard unit within 12" of Macharius takes a Morale
or Pinning checks using his Leadership of 10. May also issue any orders up to 12 inches from him.

Ferocious Charge. To represent Macharius's legendary ferociousness, he adds D3 Attacks when he charges, instead of the usual +1.

Helm of Macharius. This ornate artifact protects the wearer with a powerful force field. The wearer receives a 3+ Invulnerable Save.

Old War Wounds. Macharius suffered debilitating wounds during the Siege of Jakart that troubled him for the rest of his life. As such, his attacks are generated randomly at the start of the battle.

Master Strategist. Macharius's sudden assaults enables him to launch devastating attacks while the enemy is at his most vulnerable. If Macharius is present, then you may choose to go first in any mission where this is normally decided randomly.

Iyana Farseer of Iyanden - 190 points

WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W3 I5 A1 Ld10 Sv4++

Special Rules: Independant character, Unique, Fleet of foot, High Spiritseer
Psychic Powers: Fortitude of the ancients, Doom, Giude, Fortune, Mind War, Eldritch Storm
Wargear: Singing Spear, Shuriken Pistol, Runes of Witnessing, Runes of Warding, Ghost Helm and Rune Armor.

Fortitude of the ancients: Any Wraithlord or unit of Wraithguard within 12" of Iyana gains a 5+ invulnerable save, this power is always in effect, it does not require a psychic test to be used. In addition she may use one other of the Farseer psychic powers per turn

High Spiritseer: Whilst Iyana is joined to a unit of wraithguard, she is ignored for wound allocation, in addition, any Wraithguard unit becomes scoring while she remains a part of it. Her spiritseer range is increased to 24"



What I've changed:
T4 just like Eldrad
Point increase
Re-phrased Spiritseer and Fortitude of the Ancients special rules

Thoughts?

Not to bad really. Matchs his old rules pretty well and stacks up to other 5th ed SC fairly good.

Hey JP400, I like your idea for Macharius a lot. What would you say for point cost? 150-ish? or is that a bit steep?

I've opened another thread in the general discussion forum now. It's going to display all the most recent versions of our ideas and provide a place for C+C, This thread can now just be used for rule suggestions and changes.

i really do like mecharius, however, his ruels seem a lil tame considering he is meant to be the greatest Imperial guard commander fro abotu 2 thousand years. And i know goign first is a big thing but every Deamonhunters army can do that with the imperial tarot.....

I suggest having the eternal warrior rule as well... maybe due the field?
I also sugest somethign to do with orders, maybe every imperial guard unit may use his leadership for orders? Maybe he can issue orders to every guard model on the board? bearing in mind this guy lead one of the biggest imperial campaigns of conquest since the Great Crusade

Praxedes' rules need a revamp rather badly. They were uploaded here, basically copy/pasted from the white dwarf rules:

http://www.box.net/shared/static/t7vg83ywco.pdf

Most notably, this:

Scepter of Vengeance: St Praxedes’ powerful
scepter is a thunder hammer. In addition to the
normal effect of a thunder hammer, any model
hit by the weapon loses the ability to use psychic
powers for the rest of the game. This includes hive
mind powers and powers that do not require a
psychic test, including Synapse.

You can see why that wouldn't work in fifth edition.

Gorechild wrote:Hey JP400, I like your idea for Macharius a lot. What would you say for point cost? 150-ish? or is that a bit steep?

Considering Iron hand is 95 and Nork is 110, I would say 150+ is really steep.

I would say 105 pts sounds about right for him.

Sgt.Roadkill:
I don't know about you, but NOBODY around here plays DH anymore. Also he is still just human, not a space marine.

As such, I feel that his stats fit well. I also cringe every time someone suggests "give it EW!!!!111!1!" Why? Cause everyone and their fething brother has it now. I remember when only special characters had it. Now, almost everyone cam take it. At this rate, In the grim darkness of the warhammer game.... there is only ETERNAL WARRIOR SPACE MARINES!!!!



**UPDATE**
Master Strategist. Macharius's sudden assaults enables him to launch devastating attacks while the enemy is at his most vulnerable. Unless the mission special rules state otherwise, the owning player can choose to go first. If each player has him in play, each player rolls a die and the highest roller gets to choose. This takes precidence over any wargear or special ability.

Gorechild wrote:Anybody got any other characters they want to suggest?

The Red Terror?

I've updated the 1st post in this thread to have a link to the current rules we have come up with.

Now we have plenty of suggestions can we start working through what we have? I've changed the Master Strategist rule for lord solar and changed the point cost to be more in line with what JP400 suggested. Does anybody have any ideas for alterations or additions?

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:

Gorechild wrote:Anybody got any other characters they want to suggest?

The Red Terror?

seconded