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Dashofpepper wrote:Couple of notes:

-The broadsides weren't getting any shots on my Monoliths. When I deep-struck, instead of assaulting firewarriors and suits, I would have pulled myself through the monoliths and assaulted his broadsides - in a huge multi-assault involving firewarriors too. They would have run off the board without a shot anyway.

-Monoliths deep-striking onto enemy models - interestingly, I don't have an opinion here yet, except to note that some people think third edition rules should be followed, and others 5th edition rules. Apparently in third edition speak, Deceive is/was a shooting attack, but in 5th edition speak, the monolith can mishap on a deep-strike onto enemy models. I've literally had Necrons for a week now. I've not gotten involved in any of this debate yet, just played them as it made sense. With my Dark Eldar, I'm ok with RAW or RAI for *all* rules issues, as long as they all swing the same way. I'd feel the same here.

-Units teleporting through the Monolith: The codex says that models teleporting through the monolith treat it as if it were a stationary vehicle. I just looked at the FAQ, which said that they both need to not move, but then goes on to be confusing, especially in light of the Necron book's wording.

Obviously the trend here is that the necron rules are unclear. ><

With my Dark Eldar, rules always came down to two things, which I could always get answered ahead of time by a TO (RAI or RAW? IE, Nightmare Doll or Horrorfex?)

People have to get over the fact that a rule may have worked a certain way in 3rd edition, but breaks or works completely different in 5th. A player can't pick and choose based on what they like or don't like (this goes for both the Necron player and his opponent).

On the teleporting through the monolith, it's really not too confusing if you take the time to read through all the relevent rules/FAQs (that means buy a codex slacker ). The codex first states that models teleporting through a monolith emerge from the portal as if they were disembarking from a transport (it says nothing about a stationary transport unless it's in the older printing. There is a first and second printing of the 3rd ed Necron Codex which have some glaring differences in rules.). If you look at the rules for disembarking from a transport, it tells you that if the transport moved before the unit disembarked, then the unit disembarking may not move any further. So if the monolith moved before you sucked your guys through, you can't move them any further. Later on in the necron codex it says that units phasing out to teleport through the portal may not have moved before doing so...pretty straight forward If they moved, they can't teleport at all. The FAQ backs all of this up, except it ammends the last bit in the codex by allowing you to suck a unit through the portal even if it moved, but it can not move any further, even if the monolith itself remained stationary. So to sum it up - only if both units do not move before teleporting can you move as normal afterwards, but you are always allowed to teleport them regardless of movement prior.

As a new player to 'crons you are getting a feel for the sticky areas of the rules, so you can't really be blamed for making some mistakes. Especially when you consider all the inheirant fuzzyness that comes from a 3rd edition codex in a 5th edition world, two different printings of the same codex, and a FAQ that just decides to arbitrarily change rules for kicks and giggles.

The biggest factor in defeating Necrons is if you know how to beat Necrons.

Someone has to know how to take them out and once you know how, they are in a lot of trouble. Neutralizing WWB rolls is a huge part of it, and trying for a phase out is another.

But if you are playing against new players they will always struggle against Necrons.

"Neutralizing" WBB rolls is a little difficult if the only things available to shoot have a res orb with them.

And a monolith to give them a second shot at WBB.

As Dash pointed out, it'll basically take an ork mob to down a wraith. On the charge.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:And a monolith to give them a second shot at WBB.

As Dash pointed out, it'll basically take an ork mob to down a wraith. On the charge.

Unless, y'know, you have power weapons. Then the number of required attacks comes WAY down, rez orb or no.

Actually, throw out those two WBB attempts. See, if an ork mob charges the 3 wraiths, it will most likely knock all three down. Unless there's another wraith within 6" of the dead ones, they're GONE - no res orbing, WBBing or monolithing. Plus, any wraiths killed by power claw or burnas on power weapon mode outside of the res orb radius are instantly removed.

Been playing crons since they came out in 3rd. They suck... hard. Luckily however, your opponents sucked harder.

-Tyr

@Tyr, I've played against a pretty good array of opponents from different venues - I wouldn't say that all my opponents suck as a means of explaining why necrons can win.

@Janthkin: Wraiths only have a single save at 3++. They don't care about power weapons. The 72 attack scenario was specifically in answer to what happened in a game last week - ork mobs getting charged by wraiths. There are many permutations of numbers regarding what it takes to kill a wraith, and all of it is theoryhammer.

@Tyr again: The whole point of my army is nine wraiths. Together. With a Rez Orb. With triple monolith support, a Destroyer Lord attached to one unit, and a C'Tan to support the trouble-making. For having played Necrons since 3rd edition, your understanding of their rules seems a bit off; I've only been playing them for a week and I know that burnas and power weapons don't automatically remove models - they have to be double toughness. And even more importantly - wraiths shouldn't fly around solo.
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Personally, as an Ork and Dark Eldar player, I have no respect for necrons.

As an ork: Boarding planks, grabbin' klaws, Deffrollas, Ghazghkull Thraka.....Deffkoptas scouting in for early assaults....my burnas have a fun time too.

As Dark Eldar: Monoliths can shrug off lance weapons, but all those lances can then turn on the necrons and do bad things to them. And besides, who needs lances against a monolith when they can only move 6" and you have 30 haywire grenades in your army?

Dashofpepper wrote:
Personally, as an EXPERIENCED and SKILLED Ork and Dark Eldar player, I have no respect for necrons.

Fixed it for ya!

I thought somewhere along the line your army faced an Ork Kan Wall army of 500 points over your army list and you still mopped the opponent up with Wraiths eating through his boyz and kanz.

Not every list is going to beat your Necrons, especially if the lists are not optimized to face a Necron list along the lines of what a tournament competitive list would look like.

EDIT: Look at my Necron list from earlier. It is nowhere near as tweaked as your list to be that competitive. It is decent, but still needs work.

Unless you've got some different printing of the dex, power weapons will remove the ability to WBB on crons. And if the wraiths are all running together, blow them apart at range, or multi-assault them, and assault the lord.

Without a first-turn assaulting c'tan, this army will play a lot differently. Unless you play with a lot of LOS blocking terrain, most armies will simple shoot the crap out of the wraiths and lord while the deceiver runs at 7-12" across the table at them. 9 wraiths is essentially the same as taking out 9 marines. Just don't use lascannons on them. Save those for the lord or the deceiver.

I wasn't clear. Not saying ALL your opponents sucked. But the ones in this batrep? Yeah, they were pretty lame. Again though, I'm betting things would've gone a lot different without the first turn c'tan assault (understandable mistake, it was your first game with them).

-Tyr

Tyr wrote:Unless you've got some different printing of the dex, power weapons will remove the ability to WBB on crons. And if the wraiths are all running together, blow them apart at range, or multi-assault them, and assault the lord.

Without a first-turn assaulting c'tan, this army will play a lot differently. Unless you play with a lot of LOS blocking terrain, most armies will simple shoot the crap out of the wraiths and lord while the deceiver runs at 7-12" across the table at them. 9 wraiths is essentially the same as taking out 9 marines. Just don't use lascannons on them. Save those for the lord or the deceiver.

I wasn't clear. Not saying ALL your opponents sucked. But the ones in this batrep? Yeah, they were pretty lame. Again though, I'm betting things would've gone a lot different without the first turn c'tan assault (understandable mistake, it was your first game with them).

-Tyr

On point 1, he overrides the power weapons eliminating WBB roles by having his Destroyer Lord carry around a Res Orb, which negates the negative aspects of the WBB role so long as the unit is within 6 inches of the Lord carrying the Orb.

EDIT: Staring to sound like a Dashofpepper apologist.

never mind.

WarOne wrote:

Tyr wrote:Unless you've got some different printing of the dex, power weapons will remove the ability to WBB on crons. And if the wraiths are all running together, blow them apart at range, or multi-assault them, and assault the lord.

Without a first-turn assaulting c'tan, this army will play a lot differently. Unless you play with a lot of LOS blocking terrain, most armies will simple shoot the crap out of the wraiths and lord while the deceiver runs at 7-12" across the table at them. 9 wraiths is essentially the same as taking out 9 marines. Just don't use lascannons on them. Save those for the lord or the deceiver.

I wasn't clear. Not saying ALL your opponents sucked. But the ones in this batrep? Yeah, they were pretty lame. Again though, I'm betting things would've gone a lot different without the first turn c'tan assault (understandable mistake, it was your first game with them).

-Tyr

On point 1, he overrides the power weapons eliminating WBB roles by having his Destroyer Lord carry around a Res Orb, which negates the negative aspects of the WBB role so long as the unit is within 6 inches of the Lord carrying the Orb.

EDIT: Staring to sound like a Dashofpepper apologist.

I realize that. Maybe I misread what was being said. I thought he thought that an attack had to be double toughness to negate a WBB, but that power weapons still allowed one (which they don't). Of course, if a living model is within 6" of a res orb, then everyone gets WBB saves no matter what. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

-Tyr

Maelstrom808 wrote:

On the teleporting through the monolith, it's really not too confusing if you take the time to read through all the relevent rules/FAQs (that means buy a codex slacker ). The codex first states that models teleporting through a monolith emerge from the portal as if they were disembarking from a transport (it says nothing about a stationary transport unless it's in the older printing. There is a first and second printing of the 3rd ed Necron Codex which have some glaring differences in rules.). If you look at the rules for disembarking from a transport, it tells you that if the transport moved before the unit disembarked, then the unit disembarking may not move any further. So if the monolith moved before you sucked your guys through, you can't move them any further. Later on in the necron codex it says that units phasing out to teleport through the portal may not have moved before doing so...pretty straight forward If they moved, they can't teleport at all. The FAQ backs all of this up, except it ammends the last bit in the codex by allowing you to suck a unit through the portal even if it moved, but it can not move any further, even if the monolith itself remained stationary. So to sum it up - only if both units do not move before teleporting can you move as normal afterwards, but you are always allowed to teleport them regardless of movement prior.

Woah, Monolith teleporting acting as transport disembarking?

I missed this post, but I am certain that Monolith teleporting still allows for assaults, correct?

It says the unit disembarks as if leaving a stationary vehicle, so I'm assuming they can assault the turn they arrive. Not 100% sure on this, so I'd defer to the rules experts.

-Tyr

My codex (second printing) says transport, not stationary transport, but as long as nobody moved before the teleport, I think you are good.

Ahh, see I looked it up on scribd (I'm at work). That's probably the old 3rd ed printing that says stationary transport.

If its just transport, then I would think as long as neither the lith or crons moved before the port, you're good. If either moved or deep struck, you just deploy 2" away.

But again, I'm no RAW expert.

-Tyr

That's pretty nuts. I've got two questions because this has never happened to me in a game. Do monoliths mishap when they deepstrike? On the turn they deepstrike can they pull things through them and can those models assault? That's a scary scenario, and I think it's what Dash was suggesting was his back up strategy. Deepstrike monoliths. Pull wraiths through monoliths. Assault with wraiths neutralizing tau shooting. Broken Tau bodies litter the field of battle.

Yeah definately if either moved before hand you are stuck with just the 2" deployment, using the rule breakdown I posted above combined with an assault move is still a move.

You couldn't assault out a Rhino if it had moved, could you?

Heh, I'll be more impressed with a win of this magnitude when the rules are being played correctly. Personally, I wouldn't savor a win that resulted directly from rules errors but YMMV.

A well tuned Tau list with the proper number of Rail Cannons will seriously hurt this list.

Monster Rain wrote:You couldn't assault out a Rhino if it had moved, could you?

No, because it doesn't have a rule saying you can. The Necron Codex does, however, and nothing in the Errata changes this.

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:You couldn't assault out a Rhino if it had moved, could you?

No, because it doesn't have a rule saying you can. The Necron Codex does, however, and nothing in the Errata changes this.

Huh?

"Q. Can a Necron unit that teleports through a
Monolith’s portal move after emerging?
A. Only if the Monolith (and the teleporting unit)
hasn’t already moved that Movement phase. If the
unit has already moved before being teleported,
it may only be deployed within 2" of the portal; if
it hasn’t already moved, it may deploy out 2" and
then move normally."

Pretty clear to me that they can't. It makes them just like marines in a rhino.



Edit:
irk. Sorry, Dash; congrats on a win on the first attempt. It's always odd how your threads turn into massive rules debates.

phillosmaster wrote:That's pretty nuts. I've got two questions because this has never happened to me in a game. Do monoliths mishap when they deepstrike? On the turn they deepstrike can they pull things through them and can those models assault? That's a scary scenario, and I think it's what Dash was suggesting was his back up strategy. Deepstrike monoliths. Pull wraiths through monoliths. Assault with wraiths neutralizing tau shooting. Broken Tau bodies litter the field of battle.

Monoliths mishapping is a pretty touchy subject with a lot of people. RAW in 5th edition says they can still mishap, but if you roll a destroyed result after mishapping onto enemy models, you push them out of the way instead. RAI is pretty clear that monolith was not intended to mishap from landing on enemy units. It's just one of the cruddy technicalities that comes from having a 3rd edition codex in 5th edition rules.

If the monlith deepstrike, no the teleported unit cannot move after teleporting as the monolith counts as having moved at cruising speed, and if the monolith moves before it teleports a unit, that unit may only deploy the standard 2" and may not move any further.

WarOne wrote:
On point 1, he overrides the power weapons eliminating WBB roles by having his Destroyer Lord carry around a Res Orb, which negates the negative aspects of the WBB role so long as the unit is within 6 inches of the Lord carrying the Orb.

EDIT: Staring to sound like a Dashofpepper apologist.

Is there a rule somewhere saying that power weapons negate WBB rolls?

AP1, AP2, and power weapons negate armor saves....and my understanding is that double toughness shots and weapons that cause instant death negate WBB rolls, which I offset by having a rez orb handy. Is there more?

So a monolith has a 14" (deployment 2" + movement 6"+ assault 6") threat range for assault even on the turn it deepstrikes?

Appended: Thanks for the clarification Maelstrom808. Deepstriking liths counts as moving cruising speed. That seems less ridiculous.

I thought in the WBB rules it says that if you negate an armor save it negates WBB. If that's not true then we played that wrong this weekend when my Inquisitor was chopping up cron warriors with his eviscerator.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Is there a rule somewhere saying that power weapons negate WBB rolls?

AP1, AP2, and power weapons negate armor saves....and my understanding is that double toughness shots and weapons that cause instant death negate WBB rolls, which I offset by having a rez orb handy. Is there more?

errata

"Q. Do Necrons destroyed in close combat by any
attack that cancels armour saves count as being
destroyed with power weapons?
A. Yes, and therefore they cannot make a WBB
roll. This is also the case with rending claws,
Sisters of Battle rolling a 6 for the ‘divine
guidance’ Act of Faith (although divine guidance
used in the Shooting phase has no effect upon
WBB) and so on."

THAT IS NOT ERRATA. Nor was the first one.

The 2nd one just re-states RaW.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

If they deepstrike, no they cannot pull anything through as it counts as having moved at cruising speed

Where do you get this from? The Monolith rule says that it may ALWAYS use the power matrix to teleport a unit through.

Moving monolith followed by teleporting models not being able to *also* move is clear in context of the FAQ which removes the "always treat monolith as stationary" which I've read now - They should have left it alone; it was clearly written and didn't need clarification.

But my Monoliths can still deep strike, pull wraiths through, who then assault. I'm just going to have to tweak how I use them.

Dashofpepper wrote:

WarOne wrote:
On point 1, he overrides the power weapons eliminating WBB roles by having his Destroyer Lord carry around a Res Orb, which negates the negative aspects of the WBB role so long as the unit is within 6 inches of the Lord carrying the Orb.

EDIT: Staring to sound like a Dashofpepper apologist.

Is there a rule somewhere saying that power weapons negate WBB rolls?

AP1, AP2, and power weapons negate armor saves....and my understanding is that double toughness shots and weapons that cause instant death negate WBB rolls, which I offset by having a rez orb handy. Is there more?

I think you may of thought I said power weapons absolutely ignore WBB even with Res Orb.

WBB can be negated by attacks in CC that allow no armor saves.

Power weapons do not allow armor saves.

But a Resurrection Orb negates the negative aspects of WBB via the removal of the conditions for not being able to come back via WBB.

So in short, WBB and Resurrection Orb are double negatives. Resurrection Orb allows WBB roles under just about any circumstance.

So the Res Orb bypasses Power weapons ignoring WBB.

EDIT:

And as for the Monolith question, Gwar! saved you guys the trouble with this thread here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/314493.page

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:You couldn't assault out a Rhino if it had moved, could you?

No, because it doesn't have a rule saying you can. The Necron Codex does, however, and nothing in the Errata changes this.

The official GW FAQ spells it out though, so those of us with a modicum of sense will adhere to their ruling.

Also, the most recent printing of the codex doesn't use the word stationary.

Edited for autocorrect fail. Stupid phone...

Dashofpepper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

If they deepstrike, no they cannot pull anything through as it counts as having moved at cruising speed

Where do you get this from? The Monolith rule says that it may ALWAYS use the power matrix to teleport a unit through.

Moving monolith followed by teleporting models not being able to *also* move is clear in context of the FAQ which removes the "always treat monolith as stationary" which I've read now - They should have left it alone; it was clearly written and didn't need clarification.

But my Monoliths can still deep strike, pull wraiths through, who then assault. I'm just going to have to tweak how I use them.

I wrote the first part of that wrong and edited it, but no, by RAW with the most up to date rules, you cannot deepstrike, pull, and have the unit you pulled assault.