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Oh, the Hammerhead's nice, but it doesn't have that boxy "come-at-me-bro" aesthetic that the Leman Russ has.

Really? I don't know anyone that looks down upon IG, Forum-wise and in real life. You cannot take down an IG armor company with another armor company, and they also have NUKES (Death Strike) for 160 pts. Sure, Daemon Hunters have Orbital Strike, for 70 pts, but no one knows if it's going to be in 5th Ed. And also, IG will outnumber any army, except maybe Orks and Tyranids. Plus you can take the Penal Squads of Lol, 1 squad of 50 Conscripts, and in Apoc, you have BANEBLADES. I repeat: BANEBLADES.

IG are the backbone of the Imperium. They're the ones that do most of the work and without them, the Imperium would fall really quickly.

But, they're not the elite-awesome guys. Space Marines get to run around in badass power armor and shoot grendades. IG just can't meet that level of coolness.

It's like how Jedi in the clone wars get all the attention, even though the Clone Troopers are doing all the work. Coolness > Usefullness

Trust me, I play Eldar. So even when I'm crushing a SM/IG/Nid/Ork player, I have to hear about how girly my troops are. People make fun of your army to balance out the fact that you're winning.

I think they may have been looked down on irl because of the bandwagon effect, and the power they could bring to the table. For a while everytime someone rolled up with an IG army you would hear heavy sighs ripple outward from the player as he opened his case. Fortunately this is no longer true in many places.

Samus_aran115 wrote:..No..No one does that unless they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

You mean getting army lists from White Dwarf, I take it?


My guess as to why Imperial Guardsmen are looked down upon in certain groups might be because of how frequently Imperial Guardsmen may take casualties in a single round of assault/shooting/whatever. Or, perhaps, it may be because they may not be represented well enough on the table; as Da Butcha wrote, we don't ever see the Imperial Navy coming in and blowing the hell out of the place unfortunatly.

I have to admit, I did look down on Imperial Guardsmen when I first started. Why, it is beyond me. Playing them now is just fantastic, and am certainly not going to switch over to any other army in the near future.

Or something. I was trying to make a fine point, but I believe I lost it trying to make a semi-coherent post that defiantly sounded better in the head.

Wow , that was a lot of feedback in a very short time.
The SM players are high schoolers I think, idk for sure but they're not too popular with the other players in the club either (mainly our Eldar Player) so it's probably the whole coolness > usefullness as was stated above. I will admit I used to get ticked off all the time when they'd make comments about our armies being dumb and weak, but I've learned just to "zone it out" when they start talking.

I was just wondering if it was like that at other places, as now it seems to be the guys that are new and are all about the whole superhuman astartes stuff and are a bit ignorant to fluff; as I spotted a few Marine players in here saying Guard were pretty cool/decent.
I'm not new to Guard for those of you that might think so, I've been playing since 2007, but I just never really thought about it 'till I recently watched a B.R. on Youtube.

If anything it could be because even in their own codex they get their butts kicked.

I do not see them looked down upon too often, though. They are a mean force on the table.

Grakmar wrote:IG are the backbone of the Imperium. They're the ones that do most of the work and without them, the Imperium would fall really quickly.

But, they're not the elite-awesome guys. Space Marines get to run around in badass power armor and shoot grendades. IG just can't meet that level of coolness.

It's like how Jedi in the clone wars get all the attention, even though the Clone Troopers are doing all the work. Coolness > Usefullness

Trust me, I play Eldar. So even when I'm crushing a SM/IG/Nid/Ork player, I have to hear about how girly my troops are. People make fun of your army to balance out the fact that you're winning.

Look it's not MY fault your girly Eldar stomp my armies...

Although what Grak said is the truth.

Lucid wrote:I think they may have been looked down on irl because of the bandwagon effect, and the power they could bring to the table. For a while everytime someone rolled up with an IG army you would hear heavy sighs ripple outward from the player as he opened his case. Fortunately this is no longer true in many places.

I like going against IG, no matter what I'm playing with myself. They're one of the few armies that actually makes sense against whatever you play

I can vastly appreciate a well painted IG army too. I like nothing more than perfectly painted tanks.

I use to be a huge SM fan, Until I started an IG army. Yes there not the super elite but when a unit 50 bust out the first rank fire second rank fire at 12" . about 145 shots drop anything infanty. With the large high st. blasts that pop most tanks they are just the thing people under-estimate

The Imperial Guard is a stronger military machine than the Adeptus Astartes. Almost no Astartes fprce can put out the quantity of fire that a standard deployment of Guard can. It might be less accurate, but there's a crapton more of it.

\/ insert people whining about how I'm supposedly a marine bashing hater here \/

Well in the fluff they have BILLIONS of people, SM have much less. I think they can be looked down on in the fact they dont seem advanced. They are, but at first glance (except for space fleets) they look like our real world in a couple of decades.

There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

The Imperial Guard are looked down upon because they can never be Ultramarines.

Like many have said, IG can be a real power house on the table simply because of the numbers of dice they make you roll in armour saves - I've seen entire squads of Terminators drowned under torrents of lasfire in a single turn of shooting.

I'd ally with my flgs's infantry-based IG player any day of the week, just so he wasn't shooting at me!

Fluff-wise, I absolutely love reading about the Imperial Guard. A simple man, armed with nothing but a flak vest and a lasgun going against some of the most brutal terrors the 41st Millennium throws at them. All they have is their lousy equipment, their tanks, and each other. That just smacks of courage right there. Oh sure, the Space Marines "know no fear," they have super cool power armor and freakin' grenade launchers as a standard weapon. They even get all the super cool equipment, the best of the best vehicles, blah blah blah.

I will say right now that I am a Space Marine player (and a Chaos Marine player ), but I have more respect for the Guard than any other race in all of 40k, simply because of what I stated above.

Game-wise, I almost fear playing against the Imperial Guard. They are just NASTY. I played against a Guard player. Turn 1, tanks blew holes into all of my tanks. Turn 2, Valkyries come in and drop veterans with meltaguns and finish off my tanks. Turn 3, crap loads of lasgun fire rip apart my Marines. Turn 4, my army is utterly annihilated, no survivors whatsoever. And that was when I was doing my absolute best at the game! I was doing great! And I got slaughtered by the Guard in 4 turns. That was just brutal.

I actually intend to start a Guard army very soon. As soon as I get all my new goodies for Christmas (thank you mom and dad ), I'm buildin' a Guard force. They rock!

I agree the fluff of the IG is very inteesting, but I disagree witht the bravery thing a bit. Arent the IG conscripted? I think i heard that from someone, could be wrong though. I agree for the simple fact that I would not want to fight ANY of the races in the 40k universe with a lasgun. So I doubt they voluntarily join up. IMO

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I agree the fluff of the IG is very inteesting, but I disagree witht the bravery thing a bit. Arent the IG conscripted? I think i heard that from someone, could be wrong though. I agree for the simple fact that I would not want to fight ANY of the races in the 40k universe with a lasgun. So I doubt they voluntarily join up. IMO

Many planets have conscription, but many also have voluntary service as well. Additionally, there are plenty of worlds that consider it a high honour to be a member of the Imperial Guard.

O ok, I just went with my own cowardice I guess haha. I would not join up, they woulkd have to drag me to the Cadian gate!

I love the IG, much like the way I love my cannon fodder!
kidding!

Fluff wise, I don't really like the IG, feel like they try to make the everyman into a SM. I like SM better, huge hulking bad ass soldiers... or maybe I'm just compensating... meh...

Honestly, this is an opinion from a person who has yet to by an army when the checks from my slave duties at the local forge world clear. But knowing games in general, it's wise to NOT underestimate the weakest link, cuz if you get enough of them, they can crush you, or just break, and stab you to death.

These players at your local shop really need to be taken down. I love my SM, and I don't think this has anything to do with an IG SM rivalry, but I do know bullies when I see them. Just keep your cool and catch them with their pants down, then they'll see who's boss...

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Guard is a stronger military machine than the Adeptus Astartes. Almost no Astartes fprce can put out the quantity of fire that a standard deployment of Guard can. It might be less accurate, but there's a crapton more of it.

\/ insert people whining about how I'm supposedly a marine bashing hater here \/

And the tanks. SM got nuthin' on the IG tanks. Well, except the Land Raider, maybe.

I have enourmous respect for IG tanks, and large amounts of annoyance when they decimate my genestealers from halfway across the bored. They are awesome machines that will break the back of any army.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Oh, the Hammerhead's nice, but it doesn't have that boxy "come-at-me-bro" aesthetic that the Leman Russ has.

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Actually, far, far more than that. The various fluff and the newest IG codex gives us "billions" of regiments. Assuming that plural "billions" simply means at most 2 billion (the lowest number that can be classified as multiples of a billion), with an average regiment size being that of the Cadian 8th at 8,000 strong, it means there are 16,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen, or about 1 Space Marine for every 16,000,000 Guardsmen (assuming 1,000 Chapters of 1,000 Space Marines=1 Million Space Marines).

Then, using the SM codex derived equivalency of 1 Space Marine for every ten or twelve other troops (lets use a dozen here just to stay on the side of the SM's, and assuming that is a direct combat ratio not already taking SM's mobility force multipliers into account, even though doing so would make this whole thing seem more realistic in regards to table performance), then that means the massed might of the *entirety* of the Adeptus Astartes represents about 0.000075% of the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard, in other words meaning that the Space Marines as a whole, even if you multiplied their effect by a thousand or even ten thousand, really contribute no meaningful strength to the Imperium that isn't going to be hidden by slight changes in weekly IG recruitment.


This whole thing gets sillier if you assume that "billions" means more than just 2 billion, and/or if you see that 1SM=12 others as already taking into account their inherent force multipliers. This is why GW really should learn to understand the numbers they put out there and why it is absurd to see Marines having the effect that they do in the game universe. Using the numbers given in the SM codex, it'd mean the Siege of Vraks alone would have consumed the entirety of the Space Marines given the IG's 14 million casualties (and interestingly enough no Astartes would engage initially, and even when they did it was only in extremely limited actions resulting in extreme casualties and the death of about a third of the Dark Angels chapter IIRC, or after the enemies backs had been broken).


EDIT: Also remember that technically most IG regiments are the top performing 10% of their planets PDF forces or recruit intake (conscripts generally being recruits pressed into early service as a result of dire emergency need), meaning that whatever numbers you see above, there's about 10x that in PDF forces. Not to mention private forces, Stormtrooper Regiments, Rogue Trader forces, and other such things that often are seen on the same level and used in many of the same situations as the IG.

Thats alot of flashlights!

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Oh, the Hammerhead's nice, but it doesn't have that boxy "come-at-me-bro" aesthetic that the Leman Russ has.

Niiiiiiiccccceeeeee

Vaktathi wrote:

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Actually, far, far more than that. The various fluff and the newest IG codex gives us "billions" of regiments. Assuming that plural "billions" simply means at most 2 billion (the lowest number that can be classified as multiples of a billion), with an average regiment size being that of the Cadian 8th at 8,000 strong, it means there are 16,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen, or about 1 Space Marine for every 16,000,000 Guardsmen (assuming 1,000 Chapters of 1,000 Space Marines=1 Million Space Marines).

Then, using the SM codex derived equivalency of 1 Space Marine for every ten or twelve other troops (lets use a dozen here just to stay on the side of the SM's, and assuming that is a direct combat ratio not already taking SM's mobility force multipliers into account, even though doing so would make this whole thing seem more realistic in regards to table performance), then that means the massed might of the *entirety* of the Adeptus Astartes represents about 0.000075% of the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard, in other words meaning that the Space Marines as a whole, even if you multiplied their effect by a thousand or even ten thousand, really contribute no meaningful strength to the Imperium that isn't going to be hidden by slight changes in weekly IG recruitment.


This whole thing gets sillier if you assume that "billions" means more than just 2 billion, and/or if you see that 1SM=12 others as already taking into account their inherent force multipliers. This is why GW really should learn to understand the numbers they put out there and why it is absurd to see Marines having the effect that they do in the game universe. Using the numbers given in the SM codex, it'd mean the Siege of Vraks alone would have consumed the entirety of the Space Marines given the IG's 14 million casualties (and interestingly enough no Astartes would engage initially, and even when they did it was only in extremely limited actions resulting in extreme casualties and the death of about a third of the Dark Angels chapter IIRC, or after the enemies backs had been broken).


EDIT: Also remember that technically most IG regiments are the top performing 10% of their planets PDF forces or recruit intake (conscripts generally being recruits pressed into early service as a result of dire emergency need), meaning that whatever numbers you see above, there's about 10x that in PDF forces. Not to mention private forces, Stormtrooper Regiments, Rogue Trader forces, and other such things that often are seen on the same level and used in many of the same situations as the IG.

That's a LOT of tax payers' Money, and by a lot, I mean a ton
I try not to be a jerk when I play them, but recently they've been getting worse than usual so, I'll probably pull a -feth-you-and-your-SM!!!!!! list on them so they lay off again, as thats what our Eldar Player did once and they laid off for a while, now they say Eldar are overpowered, which we all kinda laugh at this. BUT IT NEVER ENDS!!!!!

Vaktathi wrote:

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Actually, far, far more than that. The various fluff and the newest IG codex gives us "billions" of regiments. Assuming that plural "billions" simply means at most 2 billion (the lowest number that can be classified as multiples of a billion), with an average regiment size being that of the Cadian 8th at 8,000 strong, it means there are 16,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen, or about 1 Space Marine for every 16,000,000 Guardsmen (assuming 1,000 Chapters of 1,000 Space Marines=1 Million Space Marines).

Then, using the SM codex derived equivalency of 1 Space Marine for every ten or twelve other troops (lets use a dozen here just to stay on the side of the SM's, and assuming that is a direct combat ratio not already taking SM's mobility force multipliers into account, even though doing so would make this whole thing seem more realistic in regards to table performance), then that means the massed might of the *entirety* of the Adeptus Astartes represents about 0.000075% of the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard, in other words meaning that the Space Marines as a whole, even if you multiplied their effect by a thousand or even ten thousand, really contribute no meaningful strength to the Imperium that isn't going to be hidden by slight changes in weekly IG recruitment.

See, this is what I meant when I kept saying that the Imperium really could survive if Space Marines suddenly disappeared or were wiped out.

exactly, the Space Marines are as elite as the Inquisition in a sense, they are the fine scalpel with which the Imperium can swiftly end a conflict before it ever starts (ideally). The Imperial Guard, aka "the Hammer of the Emperor" are the permanent plan B of the Imperium. If at first you don't succeed, throw a million guardsmen at it.

Field Marshall Terry wrote:Why is the Imperial Guard often looked down on? and on top of that most the Space Marine players that I've met over the years think the SM outnumber the Imperial Guard on a galactic scale.
Now anyone that knows fluff knows that's totally the other way around.

I know that there is the sort of joking fued between the Guard and Marines like the US Army and USMC, but it always seems that everyone looks down on the Guard other than the people that Ally with them or Play them.

I just don't think the IG feels very 40K.

40K is about genetically engineered supersoldiers charging head-first with their chainswords into jetbike-riding wizard-elves, mushroom-grown space-hooligans on wrecking-ball-toting buggies, tentacle-wielding evil-engineered supersoldiers from the netherrealm or egyptian terminator-robots from before time.

If I wan't to play more "realistic" armies with an aesthetic akin to real armies, I'd play FoW or some such.

I can see why GW added the IG (long before FoW was ever made) to tap into the huge market of historical wargamers, military-afficiandos and wanna-be-navy-seals. But still, IG armies always feel like they "ended up in the wrong movie". They are about as fitting as Rambo walking onto a scene in Star Wars and shooting away with a machine gun. I like Rambo, don't get me wrong, but in its own place.

I wish the threadheads would stay out of my space-fantasy. It's not like I show up with a Nid army to a FoW-game either.

The IG are looked down upon sometimes because some of their troops will turn and run in battle to be shot by their commander for being cowards or they will do things like the blood angels sometimes and not worry abut collateral damage or even in extreme examples will commit genocide but the IG should not be looked down upon they are the backbone of the IoM the SM are there to kill things normal humans should not have to deal with including the IG but in my opinion they are very badass

Zweischneid wrote:

Field Marshall Terry wrote:Why is the Imperial Guard often looked down on? and on top of that most the Space Marine players that I've met over the years think the SM outnumber the Imperial Guard on a galactic scale.
Now anyone that knows fluff knows that's totally the other way around.

I know that there is the sort of joking fued between the Guard and Marines like the US Army and USMC, but it always seems that everyone looks down on the Guard other than the people that Ally with them or Play them.

I just don't think the IG feels very 40K.

40K is about genetically engineered supersoldiers charging head-first with their chainswords into jetbike-riding wizard-elves, mushroom-grown space-hooligans on wrecking-ball-toting buggies, tentacle-wielding evil-engineered supersoldiers from the netherrealm or egyptian terminator-robots from before time.

If I wan't to play more "realistic" armies with an aesthetic akin to real armies, I'd play FoW or some such.

I can see why GW added the IG (long before FoW was ever made) to tap into the huge market of historical wargamers, military-afficiandos and wanna-be-navy-seals. But still, IG armies always feel like they "ended up in the wrong movie". They are about as fitting as Rambo walking onto a scene in Star Wars and shooting away with a machine gun. I like Rambo, don't get me wrong, but in its own place.

I wish the threadheads would stay out of my space-fantasy. It's not like I show up with a Nid army to a FoW-game either.

I think masses of ill-equipped cannon fodder is very grim-dark, especially given their real-life inspiration.