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ironhand45 wrote:If you've read helsreach then you'll see that SM think nothing of the IG and that they can't fight worth anything.

Other books say the exact opposite. Uriel Ventris is constantly raving about how much he admires the Guard, and chapters like the Space Wolves and Salamanders are renowned for their admiration of such lowly fighters. Indeed, Logan Grimnar nearly caused a civil war when he discovered what the Inquisition had done to the Steel Legionnaires who had fought alongside them on Armageddon the first time.

It's hard to reconcile the "good guy" actions of the Space Wolves with their psychotic behavior in some of the HH novels.

For the most part, their fluff makes them out to be good guys. It is worth remembering that the jackass-like behaviour we see in the HH novels are told from the perspective of the Thousand Sons, who are understandably pee'd right the feth off at the Wolves for attacking their homeworld.

Leman Russ really did seem like a douche though, by any standard. But then, even though he wasn't polite about it, the Emperor did agree with him...

And you've gotta admit,being able to field 175 models on table is pretty kick@ss.

Sure, guard are guard. They just are bleh in general.


Now, Death Korps on the other hand..

A Black Ram wrote:Sure, guard are guard. They just are bleh in general.


Now, Death Korps on the other hand..

Death Korp are born to die...
Then again so are every other guard regiment.
My favorite thing about IG is the difference in regiments in the fluff.

The IoM would definitely crumble without the IG. There are not enouph space marines to do what the guard do, they feel every casualty. The IG could lose thousands and probably forget to send letters home

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt somebody have to be genetically superior to survive all it takes to be a SM? If this is the case then this is why the IoM cannot be without the IG.

From a purely fluffy perspective, Imperial Guard clearly have the advantage. The fluff tells us that there are roughly 1000 chapters, each with roughly 1000 Space Marines (there are exceptions, like Black Templars and Space Wolves). The fluff also tells us the Imperium has roughly 1 million worlds. With rough maths we can see that the ratio of SM per Imperial World is 1:1. ONE SM per Imperial planet. Then take into consideration how most Imperial planets conscript thousands or even millions of soldiers into the Guard, and some worlds (Cadia, Krieg, among others) are completely dedicated to raising soldiers of the highest quality. Then we have Forge Worlds, whose quotas (according to Codex: IG) are thousands of vehicles on a DAILY basis. In a pure SM vs IG scenario, one space marine would have to fight thousands, if not millions of guardsmen. I'm pretty sure that even the emperor's finest don't carry that much ammo...

There is nothing finer than several squads of 50+ conscripts being led to victory by a Lord Commissar. NOTHING.

FUUUUDGE! wrote:And you've gotta admit,being able to field 175 models on table is pretty kick@ss.

ONLY 175?


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Gus_Papas wrote:From a purely fluffy perspective, Imperial Guard clearly have the advantage. The fluff tells us that there are roughly 1000 chapters, each with roughly 1000 Space Marines (there are exceptions, like Black Templars and Space Wolves).

A small note-- there are also many chapters that have less than 1000 Marines, because of casualties. Some chapters are even entirely destroyed.


Hive Worlds tithe off a percent of their population as part of paying taxes. Hive Worlds can have populations in the hundred billions and then some, which means more than a billion soldiers tithed off to the Guard JUST TO PAY TAXES. Nevermind voluntary recruits...

Also, that the guard, whilst they don't get the best equipment ever, are still sufficient to crush almost any threat. I mean, it took Abaddon 13 Black Crusades just to get a foothold on Cadia.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The IoM would definitely crumble without the IG. There are not enouph space marines to do what the guard do, they feel every casualty. The IG could lose thousands and probably forget to send letters home

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt somebody have to be genetically superior to survive all it takes to be a SM? If this is the case then this is why the IoM cannot be without the IG.

Most regiments don't bother to send letters home. I think people take it as a given that as soon as you join the guard you aren't coming back.

Crumble?

The Imperium would simply cease to exist without the IG.

Ya I would probably sign up to get off of a hive world lol

Melissia wrote:Crumble?

The Imperium would simply cease to exist without the IG.

This, and then some.

1000000 Space Marines, though scary < TRILLIONS (or more) Guardsmen.

Melissia wrote:A small note-- there are also many chapters that have less than 1000 Marines, because of casualties. Some chapters are even entirely destroyed.

At any gven time, many chapters have well under 1000 marines, and only a very tiny number even have slightly above a thousand. The average number of marine per chapter is well under a thousand.

However, as chapters are destroyed, new ones are created to keep the number up around the 1000 mark. There will always be fewer than a thousand, but rarely far below it.

A reasonable estimate might be that there are 800-850 thouand marines at any given time, I would guess.

This is why they are the sword of the emperor, they are precise killing machines, while the guard are a brute force of destruction with beyond expendable men. The guard keep order and peace and hold the main line when necessary.

Fifty wrote:

Melissia wrote:A small note-- there are also many chapters that have less than 1000 Marines, because of casualties. Some chapters are even entirely destroyed.

At any gven time, many chapters have well under 1000 marines, and only a very tiny number even have slightly above a thousand. The average number of marine per chapter is well under a thousand.

However, as chapters are destroyed, new ones are created to keep the number up around the 1000 mark. There will always be fewer than a thousand, but rarely far below it.

A reasonable estimate might be that there are 800-850 thouand marines at any given time, I would guess.

They're created in batches called foundings IIRC, which happens every X years.

Mr Nobody wrote:Imperial guard have the image of cannon fodder, which is usually not held in high respect. Though Stalin staid that quantity has its own quality.

My favorite Stalin quote in regards to cannon fodder is "A single death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."

In some Imperial Guard battles, millions of soldiers can die in a single day and no objcetives have been acheived. Space marine players think that kind of thing is pathetic as they can capture a planet and not lose a single soldier(the whole planet thing might be an exagerration but ). I reckon the IG are the best. One of their apocolyptic tanks has a range of 180 inches. Either everything is in range or you have a really, really big table-top.


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xXSir MontyXx wrote:I agree the fluff of the IG is very inteesting, but I disagree witht the bravery thing a bit. Arent the IG conscripted? I think i heard that from someone, could be wrong though. I agree for the simple fact that I would not want to fight ANY of the races in the 40k universe with a lasgun. So I doubt they voluntarily join up. IMO

Many guardsmen are conscripted as tithes, but some volunteer (whiteshields on Cadia) and some Death Korps of Krieg volunteer as they feel ashamed about their planets past

115th Cadian Shock Troops wrote:In some Imperial Guard battles, millions of soldiers can die in a single day and no objcetives have been acheived. Space marine players think that kind of thing is pathetic as they can capture a planet and not lose a single soldier(the whole planet thing might be an exagerration but ). I reckon the IG are the best. One of their apocolyptic tanks has a range of 180 inches. Either everything is in range or you have a really, really big table-top.


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xXSir MontyXx wrote:I agree the fluff of the IG is very inteesting, but I disagree witht the bravery thing a bit. Arent the IG conscripted? I think i heard that from someone, could be wrong though. I agree for the simple fact that I would not want to fight ANY of the races in the 40k universe with a lasgun. So I doubt they voluntarily join up. IMO

Many guardsmen are conscripted as tithes, but some volunteer (whiteshields on Cadia) and some Death Korps of Krieg volunteer as they feel ashamed about their planets past

Yes I have started reading up on the Imperial Guard sense this thread. They are quite interesting, and the battles are insane. I love Tyranid and Imperial Guard conflicts, for the fact of sheer scale and numbers.

Space MArines look down on IG because they are much shorter

I cant understand how anyone could think that space marines outnumber Imperial i mean....... come on seriously the amount of planets the imperial guard that there are is unthinkable

so theres around 1100 total of space marines in each chapter including techmarines and other varitents of space marines and thats about the same size as an Imperial Guard Regiment without taking tanks and others into consideration.

slushy112 wrote:I cant understand how anyone could think that space marines outnumber Imperial i mean....... come on seriously the amount of planets the imperial guard that there are is unthinkable

so theres around 1100 total of space marines in each chapter including techmarines and other varitents of space marines and thats about the same size as an Imperial Guard Regiment without taking tanks and others into consideration.

Most chapters number about 800 marines (Not inc. support and initiates) guard regiments can range from a few hundered to several thousand.

I thought as there is 10 company's in a chapter and averageing 100 marines per company which would equal around 1000 then you got the chapter master, psykers,Captains, Chaplains and tech marines then you got space marines like honour guard and command squads but then it depends on the chapter and wether they stick to the codex astartes as it says here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex_Astartes Then you have also gotta take into consideration if some have sustained heavy loses such as crimson fists.

Fifty wrote:

Melissia wrote:A small note-- there are also many chapters that have less than 1000 Marines, because of casualties. Some chapters are even entirely destroyed.

At any gven time, many chapters have well under 1000 marines, and only a very tiny number even have slightly above a thousand. The average number of marine per chapter is well under a thousand.

However, as chapters are destroyed, new ones are created to keep the number up around the 1000 mark. There will always be fewer than a thousand, but rarely far below it.

A reasonable estimate might be that there are 800-850 thouand marines at any given time, I would guess.

However you forget that the 10th company of Scout recruits has no cap on it. So this number is not particularly accurate. If you left out the 10th company and it's scouts then I would certainly agree with you.

Of course this does not change the fact that the Astarte's are still heavily outnumbered.
I know a few people in my town that use IG and they are the users of tanks.
I think it is one of the appeals of this game that you can have as many army-types as there is and they all have a different style, and I'm referring to the table game not so much as the Black Library stuff, Marines are true Mobile Infantry, the Guard is very much a Mechanized fighting force utilizing Tanks better than any other force, the Tau are probably a close second as they rely on ranged weapons as well.

I think it's too bad if players are looked down upon for their choice of army to field. But with any game you are going to find people who feel that they are right and everyone else is wrong and their squad is the best because, well, because it just is.

slushy112 wrote:I thought as there is 10 company's in a chapter and averageing 100 marines per company which would equal around 1000 then you got the chapter master, psykers,Captains, Chaplains and tech marines then you got space marines like honour guard and command squads but then it depends on the chapter and wether they stick to the codex astartes as it says here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex_Astartes Then you have also gotta take into consideration if some have sustained heavy loses such as crimson fists.

Most have taken losses so each company averages around 80 odd marines at best.
There are a few chapters that have over 1k marines but not many.

purplefood wrote:

slushy112 wrote:I thought as there is 10 company's in a chapter and averageing 100 marines per company which would equal around 1000 then you got the chapter master, psykers,Captains, Chaplains and tech marines then you got space marines like honour guard and command squads but then it depends on the chapter and wether they stick to the codex astartes as it says here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex_Astartes Then you have also gotta take into consideration if some have sustained heavy loses such as crimson fists.

Most have taken losses so each company averages around 80 odd marines at best.
There are a few chapters that have over 1k marines but not many.

I have to agree, this seems a bit more reasonable of a number. However every chapter has its Tech-Marines and Servitors who are not a part of the general fighting force. There are also Articifiers and other non-Astarte members of the chapter as well. So when you start to expand on it, the general fighting force is meant to stand at around a 1000 men, but add in the scouts and all the others and each chapter probably numbers near 2500 individuals when you account for everyone who is involved. After all you need lots of servitors and Techs to maintain the equipment, many artificer to repair or salvage the power armor of a 1000 some soldiers who are actively in the thick of fighting, and then there are no doubt others in the chapter who work as requisitioner's of equipment and supplies for the chapter, then you have the priests and others who maintain the monasteries whether ship based or planet bound and then there are some chapters who are active in planetary governments, consider the need for aids and Ambassadors in those cases. Also consider the Apothecary staff, considering the current SM codex it lists that the Ultramarine second company has one dedicated apothecary yet the chapter has a total of 13.
That page is super go to page 17 in the codex and it tells how many the ultramarines have, its 1700 equarries and servitors.
So a chapter really is more than a 1000 individuals, even with casualties.
But still that is nothing compared to the IG who can send that many to die just as a diversionary force and it's just a drop in the bucket to them.

Yeah which is why i said marines not 'everybody'.