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Vulkan Hestan and Darnath Lysander attached to 10 Salamander Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Stormshields.
All using Vulkans rules, which makes all of their Thunderhammers Mastercrafted

That unit would instakill the crap out of your unit with their ALL mastercrafted Thunder hammers and not take many wounds from the charge.
And it's less points

Skulltaker on Juggernaught + 8 Bloodcrushers..

If we're talking toughest as in harder to kill:

1 Farseer on jetbike with doom, fortune, runes of warding, runes of witnessing and spirit stones. -175 Points

10 Warlocks all on jetbikes, 1 embolden, 1 enhance, 8 destructors. -550 Points

1 Autarch on jetbike, mandiblasters, laser lance, fusion gun. -140 Points

Total Cost= 865 Points

We're talking a unit with toughness 4, re-rollable +3/++4.

They're shooting, 8 heavy flamers, 6 twin-linked str 4 shots, and 1 str 8 AP1 shot per turn.

On the charge they have:
30 initiative 5, ws 5, wound on a +2 attacks
3 initiative 6, ws 6, wound on a +2 attacks
7 initiative 7, ws 7, attacks at strength 6

All attacks can re-roll to wound to.

ChocolateGork wrote:Anyone have a single unit to top

Libarian-epistolary, sanguine shield, storm sheild, might of heroes, jump pack
Libarian-epistolary, sanguine shield, storm sheild, might of heroes, jump pack
9xSanguinary preist-PW, JP, Infernus pistol, Artificer Armour


30xDeath Company, 30xThunder Hammers, 6xInfernus Pistols 29x Jump Packs, 24xPower Weapons, Lemartes

???

30*Death Company, 30*power weapons, 30*jump packs, Lemartes

It's more economical and does pretty much the same damage as your DC squad.

Either way, the opponent is likely to take 104 power weapon wounds on the charge. There's no squad that can survive that.

A single wraithlord. Oops, looks like you can't wound T8, and once the wraithlord crunches Grimnar, that's it for the wolf guard...

Anyways,

streamdragon wrote:If a 1,045 point deathstar unit hits home, I'd think it would hurt!

But as you're walking I guess the real question is why your opponent is letting it hit home in the first place. 1,045 points buys a looooooooot of stuff and at the end of the day, Wolf Guard still only have 1 wound.

This is it, right off the bat.

With a thousand points, you can EASILY put together something that will beat 10 terminators and grimnar. As for a single unit, well, that's more difficult, sure, but why does that matter? Single-unit effectiveness isn't very important in 40k, while army-wide effectiveness is. Sure, the ultra deathstar may horribly mangle a single squad of guard infantry, but what does it matter of 2 demolishers swing in and just blow them off the table before they arrive?

In the end, Grimnar+terminator armies aren't actually all that great. I mean, last time I fought against that, I tabled my opponent. Not the best list composition, perhaps, but I fail to see what upgrades my opponent could have put in that would have won him that game...

Drahzar +9 incubi - 428 points

Pretty freaking killy.

Kharne+ 9 Berserkers (skull champion with a power sword too)- 384 points

Even better. Quite reasonable at 2000 points, especially in a land raider. You throw off about 50 attacks on the charge, with kharne hitting on 2s and the rest hitting on threes, all of them wounding on a three as well. Re rolls would be nice, but 50 attacks is fine.

<3 Kharne


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Son_Of _Deddog wrote:Skulltaker on Juggernaught + 8 Bloodcrushers..

ohhhh yeaahhhh. This. This all day. Sounds great

8 bloodcrusers with skulltaker and 3 more heralds .... would eat face.

Yes, I'm too lazy to mathammer this, but, 8 Bloodcrushers with an Instrument, Skulltaker, and 3 heralds of Khorne with Juggernaughts, Blessings of the Blood God, and Unholy might. Just for the literal Hell of it.

This comes out at 875 Points, and some of those things are not even necessary *points at BotBG and Instrument*.

This also puts out: 15 S7 I6 PW attacks, 32 S6 I5 PW attacks, and then 6 S6 I6 Instant Death on a 4+ PW attacks(on the charge). Note: this is in a void, where both sides get the charge.

With 28 T5 wounds, 5+ invulnerable saves, and 3+ armor saves, which do not matter as they will not recieve these anyway. And, though I am unsure whether there are force weapons in this unit, they recieve 12 wounds which may make 2+ invulnerable saves against these.

Not quite sure who would win, but this would do a lot of damage for sure...

20x Plaguebearers
Epidimuis
3x Herald of Nurgle
L> Palanquin

Assuming you've got the tally up this unit just become insane. T5, wounds on 2's, 3+ FNP plus the Invul. Even without a full Tally this thing is mean. Hard to kill and will wound anything on 4's as a base, I think it's a pretty good unit.

Suprised no one has said 5 great unclean ones...

and yeah and IG blob would beat the crap out of this unit. You cant sweeping advance power blobs, and you just wont have the attacks to live out the fight. You will literally be surrounded by guardsmen and you wont be able to kill the power weapons. Your squad has insane attack power, but its only so hard to pass a 2+ save.

ChocolateGork wrote:Easy to top

Mephiston
Libarian-epistolary, sanguine shield, storm sheild, might of heroes, jump pack
Sanguinary preist-PW, JP, Infernus pistol

30xDeath Company, 30xThunder Hammers, 6xInfernus Pistols 29x Jump Packs, 24xPower Weapons, Lemartes

Nothing non apocalypse and even then only units with with over 100 models. in the game can take a charge from this.

and its only 3000 points.

the librarian gives the squad constant cover and gives mephiston even more atttacks.

Well the libby wouldn't help Mephy as he isn't an IC.
BUT, with the new Apoc rules from the recent Blood Angels White Dwarf, that unit could get the Blood Talons effect.
So that every wound they caused caused another attack.
Add in Astorath (as you have to to get the effect) and they get re-roll to hit and to wound.

At that exact points cost I made the following

10 ork nobs on bikes
w/ 1 painboy
9 powerclaws
10 eavy armor
10 cybork uprades
waaagghh banner

+ 2 warbosses on bikes w/ powerclaw, eavy armor and attack squigs

27 str 9 powerclaws plus 12 str 10 powerclaws. Whole group has FNP and you can for a few extra points make some crazy wound allocation shenanigans happen.

lol not quite as uber as i thought then and i know it males little sense and quite limited overall effectiveness but i jus love them. its nice to know i have somethin that can destroy a big chunk of an army but i also know its a one shot thing and hard to employ in the first place.

i suppose i should revise my list... regardless of hoe cool fluff wise itd be

Meranus Calgar on top of a hill with his fist in the air.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:Meranus Calgar on top of a hill with his fist in the air.

Avatars...beware!

Abbadon the despoiler
Kharn the betrayer
20 possessed + mark of khorne + champion 3+ 5++
1000pts
66 strength 5 attacks + 4 + d6 strength 8 attacks and then their is deamonkin still left. I dont do math hammer but I think I win.

I think it's safe to say that Logan Grimnar and Ragnar Blackmane attached to 10 wolfguard with wolf claws and storm shields, is not the toughest cc squad in 40k.

Ailaros wrote:A single wraithlord. Oops, looks like you can't wound T8, and once the wraithlord crunches Grimnar, that's it for the wolf guard...

S5 cant hurt T8? Which chart are you using?

I love that Space Wolves apparently have the best assault units *on top* of long fang spam.

Acardia wrote:I don't know how many genestealers and broodlord you can get for 1045, but since they won't get shot up on the way in, I think more nid wins.

At over a thousand points? 20 genestealers including the broodlord, all with max upgrades. Comes to 516, so you can have the other unit take out the rest of his army. Or since we're talking single unit, two Tyranid Primes with lash whip, bone sword, scything talon pair, adrenal glands toxin sacs and regeneration (another 250 for the pair, though they lose fleet and infiltrate in the process, on the other hand his units aren't any better setup for mobility).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another nid option, this is probably as impractical as the one in the op.

9 Tyranid warriors, bone swords, lash whip, scything talons, toxin sacs, and adrenal glands*. 2 Tyranid primes with dual bone swords, scything talons, toxin sacs, regeneration, and adrenal glands*.

Comes to 735 points.

They shut the opposing force down to init 1 (assault grenades won't help here), the two primes target the two heroes, and have good odds to instakill (every wound from dual boneswords requires an LD test on 3d6, even at LD 10 those aren't good odds). Warriors bypass armor and are at WS 6 thanks to the primes.

Mathhammer says that's 22.5 wounds for the WGs invuln saves to try and stop (4+ from storm shield right? can't remember where those are). Not sure what the mathhammer for the IC on IC fights comes too, but I bet at least one of the ICs doesn't make it either.

Anything left alive has to try and deal with a 33 wound fearless unit.

*Not useful when being assaulted, but I have over 1000 points to play with.

Oscarius wrote:

the rout wrote:i do struggle to get the charge its true but only in standard 40k. in apoc i either use flankmarch or a stormlord and im pretty much set. Im very aware this squad is very costly but i just cant give up on it, theres nothing like watching the masters of the black crusade drop lke flies when you charge at them from a huge ass tank lol.

No no no, you don't seem to understand. It's totally impossible to charge the deciver, he can leave the combat if he wants!

Can't he be assaulted if he gets completely surrounded (not likely to ever happen, but still)

Just finished mathhammering this out...

Assuming I get the Assault, this unit can defeat the OP's posted unit.

Out of the Codex: Space Marine, I bring:

Chief Librarian Tigurius
Chaplain Orten Cassius
10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws

Total Points: 755

Order of Sequence (Please also take note that I am using the best case scenario):

Round 1

1. In Shooting Phase, Tigurius activates the Null Zone Psychic Power (causing all enemy Invulnerable saves to be re-rolled)
2. In the beginning of the Assault Phase, Tigurius activates The Quickening Psychic Power, allowing him to attack at Init 10.
3. Tigurius attacks Ragnar with all 4 attacks. Statistically, he will hit with 3 times and cause 1.5 wounds. Taking into account the Null Zone effect, Ragnar will be inflicted with 1.125 wounds. Tigurius makes his third Psychic Test through his Force Weapon, and causes Ragnar to die due to Instant Death. Ragnar does not get to attack.
4. Assuming that Logan uses the Axe of Morkai as a Frost Blade against Terminators, he will have 6 attacks (Assuming he is invoking "Living Legend"), hitting with 5.33 of them (Assuming he chooses Preferred Enemy with his "High King" special rule), causing 3.55 wounds, of which 2.37 wounds would kill Terminators after Invulnerable Saves. Rounding to the nearest whole number, 2 out of the 10 Terminators are dead. 8 remain.
5. With 8 Terminators left, there are 32 attacks combined. Allocating 8 attacks to Logan, 6 of them would hit, causing 4.5 wounds, which effectively causes 3.375 wounds to Logan (factoring in the Null Zone effect). Logan dies.
6. Allocating the remaining 24 attacks to the Wolf Guard, 18 would hit, causing 13.5 wounds, effectively causing 7.5 wounds after Invulnerable Saves (factoring in the Null Zone effect).
7. Cassius strikes at the same initiative as the Terminators do, and with 4 attacks, he hits 3 times, causing 1.5 wounds, of which 1.125 wounds are unsaved. Total wounds inflicted to Wolf Guard = 8.625. Rounding to nearest whole number, 9 Wolf Guard would die. 1 Wolf Guard remains. But to make this interesting, we'll round down, and say that 2 survive.
8. However, because the Wolf Guard also strike at Init 4, they will get their chance to attack. Since all 10 were alive at the start of the Initiative, they will have a total of 30 attacks combined (factoring the "Living Legend" rule). Allocating 24 of those attacks to Terminators, 18 would hit, causing 12 wounds, 8 of which would kill Terminators after Invulnerable Saves. All 10 Terminators are now dead.
9. Allocating 4 of the remaining attacks to Tigurius, 3 would hit, causing 2 wounds, effectively killing Tigurius, as he doesn't have an Invulnerable Save.
10. Lastly, allocating 2 attacks to Cassius, 1.5 would hit, causing .5 wounds, of which .25 wounds are suffered after Invulnerable Saves (We'll just say Cassius has 1.75 wounds left, for the gaks and giggles).
10. Space Marines win this Close Combat by 4 wounds. Causing the Wolf Guard to test on a Ld 5 score. Assuming they fail their morale check, and are caught by Cassius, they take 4 armor saves, which turns into .66 unsaved wounds. Rounding to the nearest whole number, another Wolf Guard would die. 1 Wolf Guard Remains. But...... Let's just assume they do not fail their morale check for the sake of argument.

Round 2:
1. Both Cassius and the last 2 Wolf Guard strike at the same initiative.
2. Both Wolf Guard have 4 attacks, hitting with 2, causing .66 wounds, of which only .33 wounds are suffered after Invulnerable saves. Cassius is down to 1.42 wounds.
3. Cassius attacks back with 3, hitting 2 times, causing 1 wound, of which only .33 wounds are unsaved. Wolf Guard have 1.67 wounds remaining.
4. Tied Combat.

Round 3 & 4:
1. Both Cassius and the last 2 Wolf Guard strike at the same initiative.
2. Both Wolf Guard have 4 attacks, hitting with 2, causing .66 wounds, of which only .33 wounds are suffered after Invulnerable saves. Cassius is down to 1.09 wounds at the end of Round 3, and .76 wounds at the end of Round 4.
3. Cassius attacks back with 3, hitting 2 times, causing 1 wound, of which only .33 wounds are unsaved.
4. Tied Combat at the end of Round 3 & 4. Only difference is at the end of Round 4, there is only 1.01 wounds of Wolf Guard left. Rounding to the nearest tenth of a wound, we now have 1 Wolf Guard remaining.

Round 5, 6, 7.
1. Both Cassius and the last Wolf Guard strike at the same initiative.
2. Wolf Guard have 2 attacks, hitting with 1, causing .33 wounds, of which only .17 wounds are suffered after Invulnerable saves. Cassius is down to .59 wounds at the end of Round 5, .42 wounds at the end of Round 6, and .25 wounds at the end of Round 7.
3. Cassius attacks back with 3, hitting 2 times, causing 1 wound, of which only .33 wounds are unsaved. Total wounds left on Wolf Guard are .68 at the end of Round 5, .35 wounds at the end of Round 6, and .02 wounds left at the end of Round 7.

So, given the game of attrition, Cassius would statistically out last the entire Space Wolf unit, and thus win. I played the scenario a couple of times over, and the order of attack sequence I just laid out is the optimal for both sides. This is all assuming that the Space Marines get the assault, of course. The other way around would likely be a very different story.

WOW, I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST WENT THROUGH ALL THAT! I'm such a nerd.


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Ailaros wrote:A single wraithlord. Oops, looks like you can't wound T8, and once the wraithlord crunches Grimnar, that's it for the wolf guard...

Actually, I wouldn't be so sure of this. Grimnar may only be wounding on 4+, but he also has 5 attacks base (6 if you include his "Living Legend" rule). Hitting on 3+ with rerolls (from Preferred Enemy) and wounding on 4+ would be tough for a single Wraithlord to beat. And with Eternal Warrior, it's not likely for the Wraithlord to take him out in a single turn. And they only have 3 Wounds also. True that the rest of the unit is pretty much useless, with the exception of Ragnar getting in a wound every other round, but a single Wraithlord I think will fall in the end just due to attrition.

Throw in a couple of more Wraithlords, or even just 1, and it's a totally different fight. And still a whole lot cheaper than what the OP listed.

C'tan nightbringer. Goodbye super unit. mathhammer is bull, when you play a real game a mathmatical simulation can't possibly predict how you roll that day.

the ctan ignores saves, and is t8. making it the same as a wraithlord but with more punch, an invul, and eternal warrior(?) or at least cant be insta killed by anything in the OP

This...is a duplicate of a duplicate of a duplicate (and so on) thread.

Rather than recreating the wheel, lets use an already existing discussion?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275581.page

Totally different thread.

This is about a units that are supposedly unbeatable but can't actually get to the fight, even though it costs 2/3rds of an army.

What you linked is actually for practical stuff.

Skavenknight wrote:C'tan nightbringer. Goodbye super unit. mathhammer is bull, when you play a real game a mathmatical simulation can't possibly predict how you roll that day.

the ctan ignores saves, and is t8. making it the same as a wraithlord but with more punch, an invul, and eternal warrior(?) or at least cant be insta killed by anything in the OP

That Gaze of Death crap is nasty against blobbed units surrounding him. He really is a bitch to take down in CC

10xMeganobz-10xCybork Bodies
Ghazghkull
Grotsnik
10x 2+/5+ W2 T4 feel no pain monsters anyone?

Vulkan in a squad of 10 thunderhammer stormshield terminators.

ChocolateGork wrote:10xMeganobz-10xCybork Bodies
Ghazghkull
Grotsnik
10x 2+/5+ W2 T4 feel no pain monsters anyone?

Nah. WG are I4, you want to strike simultaneously with at least SOME of your units. And you don't need PKs anyway, they've all got invulnerable saves. the PKs are only useful for nuking the heroes, really.

Ghazghkull
Grotsnik
10 diversified nobz w/ cybork body; 3 PK, 7 big choppa, and a Waagh! banner
BW w/deff rolla

Deff Rolla into the squad, hopefully mashing a WG or two, then bail out, Waagh (to give Ghazzy the 2+ Invul) and charge. 7 WS 7 S10 PK attacks, 5 WS6 S9 PK attacks, 12 WS5 S9 PK attacks, and 28 WS5 S7 Big Choppas. Ghazzy and Grotsnik murder the heroes, the Nobz crush the WG.

If the Deff Rolla isn't gonna work out, hop out around 14-15 inches away, Waagh, then charge home. Won't really make a difference to the outcome.

30 death company, 5 w/ power weps, with lemartes. 825 pts, 120 reroll to hit AND wound attacks... pewpew

10 incubi
klaivex bloodstone
Drazhar
urien rakarth

healing one wound -3 targeting urien ap 3 flamer b4 combat and whole lot of pain to any unit without a ++

if not
logan
ragnar
najal
world lord
max termies with wolf claws
i did my math ages ago and it comes to like 156 pw attacks if you get the charge right and use logans special ability and prefered enemy makes the hits re roll and wolf claws can make you re roll the wound everything is just gone because logan can just use powerfist varient of his ability