Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Tau have been difficult to conquer so far because of there density. Each world needs to be self sustaining, meaning every planet has its own complete army, making the job of pushing through the Tau empire slow, and taxing on resources.

The full might of the black templars could take just about anything out, so the point is a little redundant.

They have been difficult because in the context the Imperium doesn't care about them,they're a small fish on the galactic scale.Damocles Crusade was also a sector level affair,not the indicator of the full might of the Imperium.

That's the same reason orks haven't destroyed the imperium, not enough resources applied. An enemy is measured by how many resources it takes to beat them. If you need to use all the resources of the black templar to deafeat the Tau, then they are incredibly powerful.

the only reason the Tau are still alive is because Hive Fleet Behemoth and Kraken were approaching and the Imperium needed to deal with the more present threat.


the Damocles Gulf Crusade would have eventually destroyed the Tau through attrition. the Tau don't have the population to fight a war of attrition with the IoM, indeed the concept is unknown to them.


the instant the Tau present a bigger threat then any other race in the sector, they will be destroyed. assuming the Nids don't eat them first.

But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Tau have been difficult to conquer so far because of there density. Each world needs to be self sustaining, meaning every planet has its own complete army, making the job of pushing through the Tau empire slow, and taxing on resources.

The full might of the black templars could take just about anything out, so the point is a little redundant.

They have been difficult because in the context the Imperium doesn't care about them,they're a small fish on the galactic scale.Damocles Crusade was also a sector level affair,not the indicator of the full might of the Imperium.

That's the same reason orks haven't destroyed the imperium, not enough resources applied. An enemy is measured by how many resources it takes to beat them. If you need to use all the resources of the black templar to deafeat the Tau, then they are incredibly powerful.

The difference here's that the Imperium applied the fraction of it's might(a really tiny one,for example the number of the ships).That's why I call Damocles crusade a small sector level affair and which was capable of causing a great deal of trouble to the Tau.Also take the fact that even the mightiest Tau ships(Custodiean-class) are roughly comparable with a Lunar-class cruiser(BFG stats which unlike tabletop stats are usable,I'll find the quote which says that or something else).

yeah, that "Crusade" involved only 2 IG regiments and representitives of 5 marine chapters. barely 5 companies.

there were also only 5 navy ships plus the Marine ships(which probably outnumbered the Navy in hull count)


this pitiful force got all the way to a Tau Sept world and only then ground to a halt. 1/3 of the way to T'au itself.

iproxtaco wrote:But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

The IoM faced those Tau in Courage and Honor and ROFLstomped through them.Never mind the superior ships of the Imperial Navy.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

The Imperium will have learnt about the Tau as well. I agree that the Imperium tactical advancement has stagnated, individual Commanders are still able to improvise and think tactically.

The case of the Titan killer was debated in this other thread too, and I can remember the details quite well. It was a single Warhound Scout Titan, the smallest and least powerful Titan model and the Tau had to re-direct a ridiculous amount of resources to take it out. They can't do that on a large scale if the Imperium ever decides to deploy a full Titan Legion.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, that "Crusade" involved only 2 IG regiments and representitives of 5 marine chapters. barely 5 companies.

there were also only 5 navy ships plus the Marine ships(which probably outnumbered the Navy in hull count)

There were NINETEEN Guards regiments, not 2. Even Taros force numbered ten regiments, plus small battlegroup of four Warhound titans. The fleet was also fairly sizable, dozen capital ships plus escorts and transports.

The fleet situation was what largely prompted the retreat - Imperial fleet was in very poor shape after the battles, and any further Air Caste attempt to contest the system would have forced a retreat. Tau have built two generations of new ships since that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
The case of the Titan killer was debated in this other thread too, and I can remember the details quite well. It was a single Warhound Scout Titan, the smallest and least powerful Titan model and the Tau had to re-direct a ridiculous amount of resources to take it out.

Not really, it was just a modification of their standard fighter-bomber. The Mantas can face off Titans, but are usually too precious or used in transporting role to be risked in slugout battles.

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, that "Crusade" involved only 2 IG regiments and representitives of 5 marine chapters. barely 5 companies.

there were also only 5 navy ships plus the Marine ships(which probably outnumbered the Navy in hull count)

There were NINETEEN Guards regiments, not 2. Even Taros force numbered ten regiments, plus small battlegroup of four Warhound titans. The fleet was also fairly sizable, dozen capital ships plus escorts and transports.

The fleet situation was what largely prompted the retreat - Imperial fleet was in very poor shape after the battles, and any further Air Caste attempt to contest the system would have forced a retreat. Tau have built two generations of new ships since that...

Which still suck in the battle with the Imperial ships,nevermind the canon fact that the Imperium has hundreds of thousand to millions of warships and that's not even including the transports.

IvanTih wrote:
Which still suck in the battle with the Imperial ships,nevermind the canon fact that the Imperium has hundreds of thousand to millions of warships and that's not even including the transports.

Which are completely irrelevant because of the fact that they're all busy defending the Imperium.

The Imperium could flatten the Tau in the work of an afternoon. They're just not worth pulling ships and men off the line for.

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

The Imperium will have learnt about the Tau as well. I agree that the Imperium tactical advancement has stagnated, individual Commanders are still able to improvise and think tactically.

The case of the Titan killer was debated in this other thread too, and I can remember the details quite well. It was a single Warhound Scout Titan, the smallest and least powerful Titan model and the Tau had to re-direct a ridiculous amount of resources to take it out. They can't do that on a large scale if the Imperium ever decides to deploy a full Titan Legion.

Hopefully the Imperium learned they can't half bottom the job of taking out the tau. That might be why they are not doing a second crusade. Maybe they are waiting for the proper resources?

Ya it was the smallest, weakest titan they have. The point was that the tau where getting their tiny blue bottoms kicked by it, but now they have a new class of fighter designed to take them out. Their ships are another example. They started off awful, but now they have ships that can actually fight and they know how to use them too. Sowdowstron (spelling might be off) even carrys a new kind of command armor that she is testing. The tau are not the same tau from the last crusade.

Nerivant wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Which still suck in the battle with the Imperial ships,nevermind the canon fact that the Imperium has hundreds of thousand to millions of warships and that's not even including the transports.

Which are completely irrelevant because of the fact that they're all busy defending the Imperium.

Which is also completely irrelevant of the fact that the Tau will get crushed if they get too cocky.
EDITidn't see your edit.Sorry!

IvanTih wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Which still suck in the battle with the Imperial ships,nevermind the canon fact that the Imperium has hundreds of thousand to millions of warships and that's not even including the transports.

Which are completely irrelevant because of the fact that they're all busy defending the Imperium.

Which is also completely irrelevant of the fact that the Tau will get crushed if they get too cocky.

If it's feasible for the Imperium at that point and time, yes.

The case of the Titan killer was debated in this other thread too, and I can remember the details quite well. It was a single Warhound Scout Titan, the smallest and least powerful Titan model and the Tau had to re-direct a ridiculous amount of resources to take it out.

Not really, it was just a modification of their standard fighter-bomber. The Mantas can face off Titans, but are usually too precious or used in transporting role to be risked in slugout battles.

They modified one ship yes, but to support that ship they had to redirect a ridiculous amount of resources. In the end the took out one very small and relatively weak Titan. Can they do this against an Imperator? No, they can't.

I don't think the Imperium (nor the BT's themselves for that matter) would want to pull all of their troops from all over the galaxy for a crusade against the Tau. Wouldn't that be like trying to plug 11 holes in the dyke with two hands?

Uhlan wrote:I don't think the Imperium (nor the BT's themselves for that matter) would want to pull all of their troops from all over the galaxy for a crusade against the Tau. Wouldn't that be like trying to plug 11 holes in the dyke with two hands?

More like taking a hand and covering a crack that might start leaking sometime in the future.

If the templars are going to launch a crusade against the tau they should do if before the tau get a new dex, they could become the strongest army in game or their fluff could have them ally with the nids or something

Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

Kroothawk wrote:Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

We're not haters we just use canon evidence.

Kroothawk wrote:Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

It surely can't bother you that much.

Care to name these 4 hate threads?

IvanTih wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

We're not haters we just use canon evidence.

Hell, I play Tau, and I'm objective enough to know they're little more than a smear on the galactic map.

Kroothawk wrote:Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

As a Tau player just more ammunition for a new codex. There is a method to our 'thready' madness.

nomotog wrote:

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

There as mistake about the IoM.
The tacticians of the IoM gathered enough data to know what the Tau are able to.
Titans, Flyers and Space marine armor collects a lot of battlefield data.
The tacticians are rarely shown in background, but they exist. Don't underestimate them.
Their department may hold a seat in a war council.

IvanTih wrote:
How bad actually is Savage Scars,after all Andy Hoare(he's not a bad writer,but seriously he shouldn't write about Tau,much less about space combat(it contradicts every source in 40k) the Tau fanboi has written it?

Its fine. Was acceptable in casualties per side and if thats all a fanboi can do, fear the day a reliable author writes these stories.

Will add the size of the crusade and the end of it here. Just have to fetch the book to quote correctly.

Just one thing to be cleared right off: it was Lord Inquisitor Kryptman who saved the Tau and redirected the crusade.

I think some of you are underestimating the Tau. The Tau are not some backwater imperial colony without even a space ship. They have a whole caste dedicated to air and space combat (or sometimes just travel). Another whole caste dedicated to ground combat. There are no 'pesants' in the tau society (or everyone is depending on how you look at it). If you send enough troops to totally wipe out a 'fortress' (use the term as loosely as possible) the tau have no issues with having the earth caste rig the entire city and abandon it and build a new one somewere else. Where i'm not going to say the two combat castes are half the popluation...they are a good chunk of it (i suspect the earth caste would be the largest).

That all being said 6 chapters with everything they can bring...i'd give it a year from when the fighting started to when the Tau are wiped out. Although it would have to be a complete relocation fleet as by the time those 6 chapters finished with the tau they would have no homes left. Between the orks, nids and forces of chaos there'd be nothing left of their homes (if their planets weren't lost to the warp).

iproxtaco wrote:Less than a year. That's a whole six chapters worth of marines that are specialized in conquering large swathes of space, the Tau would have no chance.

Oh I forgot the Tau's marvelous Doctrine. They retreat and over-extend our resources. Fat lot of good that'll do against the Black Templars.

6000 marines are going to hands down auto-win against a highly militarized, technologically advanced, and expansionistic empire of billions with significantly more naval assets than those Space Marines can muster? Really ?

Lets be honest, even if every Battle Brothers slays a hundred Tau (already far outside of what typical SM kill ratios are given codex estimates of 1 SM for every 10-12 normal human troops, much less far better equipped Fire Warriors), they'd kill 6 Million Fire Warriors. For an empire spanning thirty something worlds and billions of inhabitants, 6 million casualties, while painful, isn't exactly going to be a death blow by any means. Going for the more conventions 10-12 per SM, then they'd kill 70,000something Fire Warriors? Negligible casualties.

Yes they will hands down win. That is all.

iproxtaco wrote:
They modified one ship yes, but to support that ship they had to redirect a ridiculous amount of resources. In the end the took out one very small and relatively weak Titan. Can they do this against an Imperator? No, they can't.

What "ridiculous amount of resources"? It was a strike by one fighter-bomber. Tiger Shark is their standard attack craft, which they probably have thousands in service. Surely they can afford to modify a few for anti-Titan work.

Besides, Imperial forces had Titans in Damocles Crusade too (probably more & bigger than in Taros) and they hardly roflstomped Tau flat even then.

Can anyone tell me how a bunch of Black Templars with perhaps three to five dozen capital ship equivalents ( let's say roughly 2 battlebarges and 6 strikecruisers per chapter times 4-6 ) of varying sizes is going to conquer a territory the size of an imperial sector? I know, the Spacemarine spank is pretty strong with some people, but i have yet to see any even remotely beliefable reason why such a small number could conquer a planet, or in our case an empire with roughly a hundred populated planets and colonies ( the number comes from Imperial Armour III page 13, therefore the Tau Empire has roughly the size of the Sabbat sector ), without turning it into glass from orbit.

So no, unless the Black Templars receive considerable assistance from the Imperial Guard ( which needs to provide the necessary numbers to actually conquer, instead of disrupt ) as well as the Imperial navy the entire crusade will stall as soon as they hit the first fortified world. The Black Templars fleet is perhaps the strongest component in such a crusade, but even this does not guarantee victory, mainly because the Tau's most recent shipddesigns ( Imperial Armour III ) put them roughly on par with their equivalents from the Imperial Navy.

So, to make it short. While Spacemarines are perfectly capable of suceeding in short battles against overwhelming odds they will suffer badly in wars of attrition, which every fight to actually conquer fortified territory will sooner or later become. I personaly think that to truly crush the nascent Tau Empire a crusade comparable with the Sabbat Crusade would be necessary. Both deal with with a territory of roughly comparable size against an enemy which is determined and technologaly equal, perhaps even superior in some cases ( warpmagic beyond that what the Imperium dares to field, technology beyond that what the Imperium can regularly field ).

IvanTih wrote:We're not haters we just use canon evidence.

... to celebrate another "genocide of the Tau race" fantasy.