Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, though it's a gas giant and equal in size to 10 or more Earth size planets so could be highly populated.

We don't know how many planets each the Tarellians, Demiurg, Nicassar, and Humans have.

There may be other allied species around too that we haven't heard about.

We know Demiurg and Nicassar have zero. Actually humans would be the other multi-planet species within the "Federation".

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM

Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?

The IoM has 1,000,000 planets. The Tau have 100. That's 1:10,000

You suck at math.

and if we're including supporting guard and titanicus then yeah, obviously they win. The point was 6,000 marines alone against the Tau's 100 planets. Dal'yth, which was a primarily water-caste world, had a strong enough military to hold the DGC's 2 companies worth of composite marine force, titan legion, Multiple guard regiments, and navy support.

There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, though it's a gas giant and equal in size to 10 or more Earth size planets so could be highly populated.

We don't know how many planets each the Tarellians, Demiurg, Nicassar, and Humans have.

There may be other allied species around too that we haven't heard about.

We know Demiurg and Nicassar have zero. Actually humans would be the other multi-planet species within the "Federation".

I don't remember hearing that the Demiurgs had no home world

Same with the Nicassar. They have no home world within the Empire, that is for sure, but only a few hundred Nicassar flotillas were found by the Tau. There may be many, many more Nicassar out there.

1hadhq wrote:
Cool. Its back to 3 dimensional. Weren't you the one to claim there is only 1 way to enter the realm of the Tau?
But clearly you can see the volume on 2D and clearly you can see the borders of each sept clearly.....Oh wait , you cannot.
These 2D forms aren't translating well into 3D. And the numbers there are anyones guess.

Since almost every map of the 40k galaxy is 2d, one could make the same arguments about IoM. Yes, it's hard to see the boarders. Unless you look at the map. It's also hard to say how populated they are. Unless you read the map key.

And there's only one way in, for the Imperium (possibly 2 if the Jericho reach happens to connect to Tau space through a navigatible are of the warp, but currently that's over-run with Tau, nids, and Chaos.)

1hadhq wrote:
Why didn't you read the posts youre replying to?

This discussion has just reached this point.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So do Tau have 100 worlds or 12? I've heard both.

17 sept worlds, 100 in total.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM

Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?

and if we're including supporting guard and titanicus then yeah, obviously they win. The point was 6,000 marines alone against the Tau's 100 planets. Dal'yth, which was a primarily water-caste world, had a strong enough military to hold the DGC's 2 companies worth of composite marine force, titan legion, Multiple guard regiments, and navy support.

Ignoring the fact that The Damocles Gulf Crusade was pitifully small. Again.

There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.

A Battlesuit is not worth more than a Space Marine. Each Space Marine has fought in and won more wars in a few years than the Battlesuit pilot will ever in his entire life-time. Are you saying there are more than 1.1 million battlesuits? There are only about 2 million Firewarriors.
Source on this Knarloc killing a whole tactical squad? Space Marines do not die as easily as a lot of people think they do. How does each survive for several hundred years of constant war fighting more powerful enemies than the Tau? Because they're hard to kill.

Space marines sometimes on the field when told to be killed by tau are actually just wounded and are in armor lockdown.

Also This thread is like a damn vampire!

im2randomghgh wrote:

I don't remember hearing that the Demiurgs had no home world

Same with the Nicassar. They have no home world within the Empire, that is for sure, but only a few hundred Nicassar flotillas were found by the Tau. There may be many, many more Nicassar out there.

Yeah the Demiurg were literally eaten out of house and home by the tyranids; the Tau offered them free passage and protection for their clan-ships and they offered free tech (Ion tech).

The Nicassar have always been nomadic AFAIK.

They're both wandering vagabond refugees. Demuirg are still tough customers though. Nicassar not so much.

Randomluhr wrote:
There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.

Wait What? So your saying the space marines which literally number around 3 million, are smaller than the Tau who number around a billion overall??? Yeah that makes perfect sense. Not to tear you down but in that aspect you kinda failed at making a point.

Asherian Command wrote:

Randomluhr wrote:
There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.

Wait What? So your saying the space marines which literally number around 3 million, are smaller than the Tau who number around a billion overall??? Yeah that makes perfect sense. Not to tear you down but in that aspect you kinda failed at making a point.

Um, space marines number around 1 million (supposedly). Tau worlds seem to have around 5-7 billion, the few that an actual number is put to.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, though it's a gas giant and equal in size to 10 or more Earth size planets so could be highly populated.

We don't know how many planets each the Tarellians, Demiurg, Nicassar, and Humans have.

There may be other allied species around too that we haven't heard about.

We know Demiurg and Nicassar have zero. Actually humans would be the other multi-planet species within the "Federation".

Exactly. Only the Kroot and Vespids have a few hints on their number of planets.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IoM has 1,000,000 planets. The Tau have 100. That's 1:10,000

You suck at math.

The 1 million isn't a excact number. So youre 1:10.000 is way off.
Sadly no surprise as we see don there:

im2randomghgh wrote:
and if we're including supporting guard and titanicus then yeah, obviously they win. The point was 6,000 marines alone against the Tau's 100 planets. Dal'yth, which was a primarily water-caste world, had a strong enough military to hold the DGC's 2 companies worth of composite marine force, titan legion, Multiple guard regiments, and navy support.

There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.

Heard of this timeline, called 999M41, nickname stasis field ? Tau are right there, like everyone else.
So keep up dreaming of XV 938726237 suits as much as you please, still 40k background will not deliver....

BT got a rough estimate of their size in codex BT, not perfect but something worth to go from. If you need the page, just ask.
Your claimed numbers of suits and knarlocs can be found where?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Since almost every map of the 40k galaxy is 2d, one could make the same arguments about IoM. Yes, it's hard to see the boarders. Unless you look at the map. It's also hard to say how populated they are. Unless you read the map key.

And there's only one way in, for the Imperium (possibly 2 if the Jericho reach happens to connect to Tau space through a navigatible are of the warp, but currently that's over-run with Tau, nids, and Chaos.)

The IoM has the "advantage" of being the targeted realm of campaigns and got 3D, and maps and details to go from. So no, the IoM isn't
subject to 2D as other factions are. Maybe all of the warring factions should hold their next "eternal war" party in Tau space and harrass their worlds, just for a change obviously, and we get more details.
Suggestion: Nids (already there) Ork ( invited by eldar) Eldar ( invite themselves per farseer) Necrons ( disturbed and angry) chaos (attempts to corrupt a new allly of the Tau) IoM (was following the chaos fleet). Mission Target: raze that world ASAP.

Since youre soo convinced of the map, why don't you tell us the exact boarders of Tau and Tau'n ? Go have a look....

And it seems my addendum won't be tacked on to what I was writing because 1hadhq posted, who is the first dakka poster to have ever made my ignore list, congrats.

It should also be noted that not all worlds seem to have the same balance of castes.

BaronIveagh wrote:And it seems my addendum won't be tacked on to what I was writing because 1hadhq posted, who is the first dakka poster to have ever made my ignore list, congrats.

It should also be noted that not all worlds seem to have the same balance of castes.

LOL!
Anyway, I believe it was 1 million, but I am also considering the fact that some chapters do not follow that so I boosted it up to 2 million the current tau forces are 3 million strong. Soo.... Just sending an entire chapter and a few regiments would of owned the tau.

BaronIveagh wrote:And it seems my addendum won't be tacked on to what I was writing because 1hadhq posted, who is the first dakka poster to have ever made my ignore list, congrats.

Oh thanks.

I've got a feeling I won't stay alone on it.....



Last time we have seen these suits in 40k fluff, ie savage scars, the suits died and the marines lived.

The main problem is that unless GW decides to Squat the Tau, we could all argue this issue until our faces were bluer then an ultramarine's ass, and it will never be decided.

And even then they'll have 'never existed' rather then be eliminated.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM

Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?

The fact that Tau have about 100 worlds, and the Imperium has about a 1,000,000, therefore, the Tau is 1:10,000 the size of the Imperium. In population the ratio is even bigger, as few Tau worlds are densely populated, and even then they are nothing compared to an average Imperial civilised world.

I am not talking about worlds, but number of Light Years when it comes to territory...
But never mind, there is nowhere even a mention of that...

The Tau Empire, at it's widest point, was about 100 LY across, IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Milky way is 100,000 LY


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:And it seems my addendum won't be tacked on to what I was writing because 1hadhq posted, who is the first dakka poster to have ever made my ignore list, congrats.

It should also be noted that not all worlds seem to have the same balance of castes.

LOL!
Anyway, I believe it was 1 million, but I am also considering the fact that some chapters do not follow that so I boosted it up to 2 million the current tau forces are 3 million strong. Soo.... Just sending an entire chapter and a few regiments would of owned the tau.

If anything, it would be lower than 1 million, due to the fact that very, very few chapters are ever at full strength.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.

There's less than a million space marines.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's less than a million space marines.

Exactly.

Crazy white text!

I am confused how density plays into a culture like the Tau when it comes to war.

They seldom suffer anywhere near total forces casualties in conflicts. So, be it larger or smaller, given the scale of conflicts the IoM is willing to throw at it, they win with what they have.

Be it 100 worlds or 20, the Tau manage to defeat the Imperium time and time again with the tired old excuse being "wait until next time."

The fact of the matter being, that the Tau have a flawless win streak when it comes to their definition of a win. That being, that they fight to kill an enemy, then take the lands they want. If they have to withdraw and hit it again they do. But to date, the only conflict they really lost badly in, was one in which they initially won, wiped out all defenders, then fought a bloody battle against BTs and IF, only losing when Brightsword was recalled for brutality, ironically in a brilliant route/massacre.

Technology and population aside, the real debate should be about the Imperium's horrendous tactical, logistical and proganda campaigns, which all fail against the Tau on a consistent basis. On the flip side, the Tau score high marks in all three categories in most of the conflicts they engage in against the IoM. With Gulfs and planets defecting without a fight and even loyal planets being duped at a leadership level to lay down arms.

im2randomghgh wrote:@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.

Imperial possessions also fluctuate wildly, and "number of planets" is a pretty poor indicator for relative strength: the Imperium has just over 32,000 hiveworlds, each of which dwarf the entire population of the Tau empire a dozen times over (and house only about 50% of the Imperial population, give or take around 10% in either direction), while the Craftworlders have only around a dozen craftworlds, yet dwarf the Tau a hundred times over, and even the Dark Eldar dwarf them with their one city.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.

Imperial possessions also fluctuate wildly, and "number of planets" is a pretty poor indicator for relative strength: the Imperium has just over 32,000 hiveworlds, each of which dwarf the entire population of the Tau empire a dozen times over (and house only about 50% of the Imperial population, give or take around 10% in either direction), while the Craftworlders have only around a dozen craftworlds, yet dwarf the Tau a hundred times over, and even the Dark Eldar dwarf them with their one city.

The IoM does NOT have 32,000 hives. There is usually only one per sub-sector.

The Craftworlders certainly do NOT outnumber the Tau. They would be horrifiaclly out-numbered.

And there are more than 12 CW, probably closer to 50. There are only 12 NAMED CW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:I am confused how density plays into a culture like the Tau when it comes to war.

They seldom suffer anywhere near total forces casualties in conflicts. So, be it larger or smaller, given the scale of conflicts the IoM is willing to throw at it, they win with what they have.

Be it 100 worlds or 20, the Tau manage to defeat the Imperium time and time again with the tired old excuse being "wait until next time."

The fact of the matter being, that the Tau have a flawless win streak when it comes to their definition of a win. That being, that they fight to kill an enemy, then take the lands they want. If they have to withdraw and hit it again they do. But to date, the only conflict they really lost badly in, was one in which they initially won, wiped out all defenders, then fought a bloody battle against BTs and IF, only losing when Brightsword was recalled for brutality, ironically in a brilliant route/massacre.

Technology and population aside, the real debate should be about the Imperium's horrendous tactical, logistical and proganda campaigns, which all fail against the Tau on a consistent basis. On the flip side, the Tau score high marks in all three categories in most of the conflicts they engage in against the IoM. With Gulfs and planets defecting without a fight and even loyal planets being duped at a leadership level to lay down arms.

Exactly, the Tau decide they want a planet...then take it. Maybe tomorrow, maybe from your grand-children, maybe from the cold, dead fingers of your great-great-grandchildren. But they WILL get it.

The water caste is one of the few forces in the galaxy that could possibly take Cadia.

You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.

And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.

iproxtaco wrote:That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end?

Ah, yes, the great victory of Nimbosa.

Where the Tau took out a Vostroyan regiment, then were wiped out by the Space Marines.

Still a victory, right?

What do you mean? As far as I can see, the Imperium successfully won back Nimbosa, and still have it. I was actually pointing out that the Tau were stated as having won and lost in the same sentence.

iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.

And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.

Actually a hive world's population is between 50,000,000,000-500,000,000,000 people

The Tau Empire's population is between 100,000,000,000-200,000,000,000

A small hive is 1/4 the size of a liberal estimate of the populace of the tau Empire.

1/2 the size of a conservative estimate.

Anyways though, I think we can all agree it is simply smarter to go with sept worlds rather than hives. Septs are self-sustaining.

Sorry, 100,000,000,000? As in 100 billion? Where the feth do get those numbers from? So, a large hive, a single planet has five times the population of the Tau, so I was right.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.

Imperial possessions also fluctuate wildly, and "number of planets" is a pretty poor indicator for relative strength: the Imperium has just over 32,000 hiveworlds, each of which dwarf the entire population of the Tau empire a dozen times over (and house only about 50% of the Imperial population, give or take around 10% in either direction), while the Craftworlders have only around a dozen craftworlds, yet dwarf the Tau a hundred times over, and even the Dark Eldar dwarf them with their one city.

The IoM does NOT have 32,000 hives. There is usually only one per sub-sector.

The 32,000 figure is from the BRB, I believe. I just have the pocket rulebook, so I don't know the page, but I do know where I read it (another thread) had it sourced to a page. Edit: iproxtaco sourced that just now.

The Craftworlders certainly do NOT outnumber the Tau. They would be horrifiaclly out-numbered.

Each craftworld is the size of a small planet and populated throughout. The few specific figures I've seen put each craftworld as dwarfing the Tau, though to a lesser extent than an Imperial hiveworld.

And there are more than 12 CW, probably closer to 50. There are only 12 NAMED CW.

Then the point stands even stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Anyways though, I think we can all agree it is simply smarter to go with sept worlds rather than hives. Septs are self-sustaining.

And a single tithing of Armageddon, taking under .1% of the population, raised a force larger than the entire Tau military...

iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.

And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.

Nimbosa was two seperate fights.

I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.

The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.

Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.

iproxtaco wrote:Sorry, 100,000,000,000? As in 100 billion? Where the feth do get those numbers from? So, a large hive, a single planet has five times the population of the Tau, so I was right.

There is only one hive with 500 billion. Armaggeddon. Only Terra surpasses her, with 100 trillion citizens.

And also, the Eldar population is not very dense, since they don't mate all that often (very un-human) and leave plenty of space for parks, art galleries etc.

There are actually 23 surviving named CWs, there are apparently more, to about 61, meaning they by far outnumber the Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do you know there's only one? There are more than 32,000 of them, they vary, and considering the Tau apparently have a random unsourced population of 100 billion, then yeah, I'd say a fair few will have a population many times bigger than the Tau on them.