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iproxtaco wrote:What do you mean? As far as I can see, the Imperium successfully won back Nimbosa, and still have it. I was actually pointing out that the Tau were stated as having won and lost in the same sentence.

Further Clarification:

Nimbosa was attacked by the Tau. Every single last piece of resistance was killed. The planet then retro-fitted defense and prepared for a retailiation from the IoM. They learned from the DGC to be prepared when you take Imperial worlds.

The IoM sent a grouping of mixed chapters to assist Guard in taking the planet back. The second battle was a really hard fought battle that went to the IoM in the end. However, a major factor in the Tau;s defeat was the recalling of the Tau "General" Brightsword, an acolyte of Farsight.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.

And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.

Nimbosa was two seperate fights.

I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.

The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.

Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.

The point of Tau valuing lives more than land is more true than you realize. They send in the kroot, but not as cannon fodder, they try their best to keep them safe using fire support. They evacuate cities in the path of an enemy. They will offer peace even when they are winning to avoid the loss of life.

And yes, I agree with you on the militarization. The Tau can, at max, get 50% (Air+Fire) + any Ethereals who fight+ drones+ auxilliaries+ battle-field technicians (earth), The water caste and earth caste are physiologically incapable of actual combat without being worthless.

The IoM probably couldn't get above 1-2%.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.

And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.

Nimbosa was two seperate fights.

I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.

The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.

Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.

In a realistic hypothetical fan made event in which the Imperium actually gathers up the resources, they would utterly crush the Tau. As it stands, the Tau have a good track record due to the small size of the confrontations and a healthy dose of plot armour. The Imperium has survived for 10,000 years because of that notion. It will be no different with the Tau. They don't care, because they can't afford to care, the Tau can just now, nut they're up against a force which could destroy them with a metaphorical flick of its finger.


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Yet that 1-2% is still several thousand times the strength of the Tau's full capability. The Imperium could quite easily step up production of lasguns and flack armour and mobilise 10%, that would crush the anything, but leave a lot less to do other important jobs.

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.

And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.

Nimbosa was two seperate fights.

I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.

The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.

Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.

In a realistic hypothetical fan made event in which the Imperium actually gathers up the resources, they would utterly crush the Tau. As it stands, the Tau have a good track record due to the small size of the confrontations and a healthy dose of plot armour. The Imperium has survived for 10,000 years because of that notion. It will be no different with the Tau. They don't care, because they can't afford to care, the Tau can just now, nut they're up against a force which could destroy them with a metaphorical flick of its finger.

You're defending the IoM by talking about plot armour...confusing...

The Imperium values land over lives because and is more valuable to them. There will always be more civilians and troops, there wont ever be more worlds. It's a distinct sense of realism that the Tau would have to come to terms with if they were in the Imperiums position.


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No, just down-playing the over-inflated opinions some people have of the Tau. The Imperium has it's own plot armour in copious amounts.

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.

And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.

Nimbosa was two seperate fights.

I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.

The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.

Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.

In a realistic hypothetical fan made event in which the Imperium actually gathers up the resources, they would utterly crush the Tau. As it stands, the Tau have a good track record due to the small size of the confrontations and a healthy dose of plot armour. The Imperium has survived for 10,000 years because of that notion. It will be no different with the Tau. They don't care, because they can't afford to care, the Tau can just now, nut they're up against a force which could destroy them with a metaphorical flick of its finger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yet that 1-2% is still several thousand times the strength of the Tau's full capability. The Imperium could quite easily step up production of lasguns and flack armour and mobilise 10%, that would crush the anything, but leave a lot less to do other important jobs.

The bane of having an Empire as large as the Imperium's is a constant defensive game on all fronts. You can't factor in Imperial might without first factoring out what assets they can't use due to other fronts.While I agree a fully unhindered Imperial force could wipe out the Tau in an ideal setting, it's just that, an ideal setting. Not too close to the real setting, where the galaxy is attacking the IoM on all fronts at once.

Except it's just wishful thinking to say the Imperium can't, because they can. The resources COULD be put somewhere else, to bolster the defences, but defeating the Tau won't take much in the grand scheme of things, and said defences don't need the extra help. They could in the real setting still do it.

iproxtaco wrote:Except it's just wishful thinking to say the Imperium can't, because they can. The resources COULD be put somewhere else, to bolster the defences, but defeating the Tau won't take much in the grand scheme of things, and said defences don't need the extra help. They could in the real setting still do it.

The problem is, empires like that of the Tau are too numerous for the Imperium to stamp out.

There aren't. I would like you to name them if they're numerous.

iproxtaco wrote:There aren't. I would like you to name them if they're numerous.

"While no one empire such as the Tau represents a threat to the Imperium at large, their sheer number means that many will continue to exist, and be a threat to human worlds, for a long time to come."

Source? And the Tau are an order of magnitude more important than the average xenos race occupying three backwater worlds on the edge of space. I asked for EMPIRES. The Tau are a civilised race ruling over 100 worlds, that's a tick. Those other xenos, they're bacteria, unless you can give me one which is the size and power of the Tau.

iproxtaco wrote:Source? And the Tau are an order of magnitude more important than the average xenos race occupying three backwater worlds on the edge of space. I asked for EMPIRES. The Tau are a civilised race ruling over 100 worlds, that's a tick. Those other xenos, they're bacteria, unless you can give me one which is the size and power of the Tau.

Deathwatch Core.

And yes, they're irrelevant bacteria in the grand scheme of things.

GW just decided to follow a strain of bacteria as it grew.

The thing to keep in mind is that if the Imperium seriously commits a force larger than the Damocles Crusade they could take out the Empire.

If the Imperium dedicated every single resource to something then yeah, they could beat the Tau, but then again they could beat almost everything. The Imperium still has to worry about all the other segmentums out there, as well as all of its current and active crusades/reclamations.

Could the Imperium do it? Absolutely, and they wouldn't even need a force that's increasingly larger than the one from Damocles. But the Tyranids, Chaos and Orks represent threats too serious to divert attention from, thus giving those threats with lesser men/resources (The Tau, the Eldar/Dark Eldar, etc.) a chance to cause more trouble. The Imperium has to maintain a delicate balance, and right now it seems that even at their rate of recruitment/production or whatever that they're having a hell of a time keeping what they have.

MY GOD. The Imperium would have more than enough to spare if they wanted to take out the Tau. They are not at breaking point.

iproxtaco wrote:MY GOD. The Imperium would have more than enough to spare if they wanted to take out the Tau. They are not at breaking point.

Despite the fact that it's been brought up multiple times in this thread, you never provide evidence to the contrary.

iproxtaco wrote:The Imperium has it's own plot armour in copious amounts.

Only if being written as the single largest cohesive faction in the setting counts as plot armor. Except for Space Marine-Sues, who are the single smallest and most insignificant faction in the entire setting, except for Chaos Space Marines, who have somewhere between a third and half their numbers, and are ruled by warp-maddened lunatics who think it's funny when they die. They've got more plot armor than there is matter in the known universe several times over.

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:MY GOD. The Imperium would have more than enough to spare if they wanted to take out the Tau. They are not at breaking point.

Despite the fact that it's been brought up multiple times in this thread, you never provide evidence to the contrary.

To draw from the Guard codex: Armageddon is annually tithed for one hundred million recruits and several million armored vehicles, which works out to well under .1% of its hundreds of billions of residents. A single one of those tithings would be greater than one thousand times the largest force ever sent against the Tau, and there are more than 32 thousand worlds for which such a tithe would be less than .1% of the populace.

iproxtaco wrote:MY GOD. The Imperium would have more than enough to spare if they wanted to take out the Tau. They are not at breaking point.

Ip, not trying to troll you but in that part of the galaxy, yeah they are.

The Tyranid invasions utterly crippled that area of the galaxy.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:MY GOD. The Imperium would have more than enough to spare if they wanted to take out the Tau. They are not at breaking point.

Ip, not trying to troll you but in that part of the galaxy, yeah they are.

The Tyranid invasions utterly crippled that area of the galaxy.

The Tyranids, in all, have destroyed less than .02% of the Imperium. How much of the Tau have been destroyed by the single smallest, weakest fragment of a hivefleet? If it's so much as one world, it would be 1%, and it's certainly more than a single world.

Not that .02% isn't scary and threatening, I mean, Pearl Harbor killed .001% of the American population at the time, and look how we reacted to that. So the Tyranids are possibly the largest external threat, but at the same time they're still a pathetically small one. It'd be like if, say, Luxembourg tried to invade the US with a few dozen pickup trucks and as many light machine guns, and maybe some bottlerockets or something, and nobody noticed them before they'd hit a few small, rural towns in the middle of nowhere.

Not sure I'm following you here . . . I mean didn't the Tyranids mess up the Ultramarines and most of their protectorate star system? How does that make them a small threat, they crippled the finest Space Marine chapter in the IoM (©Ward)

Applied to Tau though I totally agree with your analogy. In fact I'd say East Timor instead of Luxembourg.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM

Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?

The IoM has 1,000,000 planets. The Tau have 100. That's 1:10,000

You suck at math.

I was referring to Light Years. But these doesn't count in Warhammer, if so then Imperial territory is 100,000:1 when compared to Tau. Because distance between 2 Imperial worlds would be up to 500 LY, and that's for neighbor planets. Tau sept is 300 Light Years long, so go figure...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's less than a million space marines.

That's odd, last tiem someone was doing chapter list it was more bigger than 1,000.
We concluded there are 1,250.000 Space Marines in the Imperium. ( without BT or SW )


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im2randomghgh wrote:
The water caste is one of the few forces in the galaxy that could possibly take Cadia.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The Tyranid invasions utterly crippled that area of the galaxy.

No, if you see here: http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html the Behemot destroyed only several worlds before being stooped at Macragge.
Hive fleet Kraken didn't destroy anything, the Hive fleet was destroyed bi Eldar at Iyanden and terminators at Ichar IV. Only small fragment's escaped.

The Ultramarines have healed as well as their worlds. And since no damage was done by Kraken ( through the sacrifice of the Eldar ) the sector was not crippled at all.

iproxtaco wrote:
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.

Ahem...
Rulebook page 115, box in the right corner:

Example of Minea, a hive world.
Estimated number of Hivewordls in the Imperium in this entry:

3238 x 10^4

=> 32.380.000 is the correct way to disassemble right?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The bane of having an Empire as large as the Imperium's is a constant defensive game on all fronts. You can't factor in Imperial might without first factoring out what assets they can't use due to other fronts.While I agree a fully unhindered Imperial force could wipe out the Tau in an ideal setting, it's just that, an ideal setting. Not too close to the real setting, where the galaxy is attacking the IoM on all fronts at once.

Could we factor out also the assets of non-imperial forces who have to defend too?
Because the Galaxy doesn't care who you are, everone will be attacked in this eternal war setting.
Some like Eldar just cheat and hide....

As per page 138 the IG recruts millions daily.
Daily. So enough without duties yet and with only 0.01 % mobilized just wait what happens if the Imperium switches to realistic 10%.


The real setting is also part of the background. Look at the maps of nids, orks, necrons, eldar, etc activities. Generally the only
rather peaceful place in this Galaxy seems to be westwards in segmentum Pacificus.
But the Tau are in the Eastern fringe, right where the nids come in with multiple hive fleets....
Orks , chaos, necrons and maybe other yet unknown threats are there too.

im2randomghgh wrote:

@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.

Did you discount the worlds lost to tyranids, harvested by Necrons, depopulated by Dark eldar , etc?
I don't see where the +14 should come from, since we know these vile threads of space bugs, space undead and spiky space elfs took their toll on them and thats without mentioning orks or chaos.

The Imperium may afford to lose a 114 worlds without being broken....

Greetings. I have seen such Fethed up Posts here. I'm a Son of Dorn and Of the Emperor.
and I can tell you all With or Without Support the Black Templars can Purge the Entire Tau Empire, it would take a long time but it will be done.
The Black Templars are the Most Zealous and one of the Most Faithful Chapters of the Astartes.
They would never back down from a fight, would Never bring the Chapter and the Emperor in Shame.

The Heraldic Cross stands proud on our chests, where Astartes of lesser chapters wear the Emperor's Aquila. We do not wear his symbol. We are his Symbol. Another thought our Codex has not yet been Updated so the Exact number of the BlackTemplars raging across the universe has not yet been said. but it was Stated in several Forums and Websites... etc etc... like for this example: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Black_Templars that we are a Legion and a lot of Our Friends and Perhaps you "reader" know this as well that 10,000+ Black Templars are here.

With Support the Tau Empire can grovel at our knees. Saying Several other Chapters who has lets say a Grudge against the Tau, as well as the Deathwatch, as they are Xeno hunters and the Imperium are stating that the Tau are Xenos. The Imperial Guard, How many are there in one regiment? Acting a course like this invading the Tau Empire, would give us Tens, Hundreds and if the Emperor wills it Thousands of Regiments, Armoured, Infantry, Artillery that's a lot of Firepower. Let's not forget about the Imperial navy, of course they have had their fair share of action and how many Sons, Daughters, Fathers, Mothers they have sacrificed against the Tau. If they would have given a chance to join the Black Templars Crusade to Exterminate a Threat against the Imperium what would they say? Where Billions upon Billions of MEN and WOMEN would gather and Fight for their Loved ones, for the Imperium and of Course the Immortal-God Emperor himself. Would not that be a sufficient cause? and that's just the IG.

of Course Other Chapters would hear this great battle about to Happen. A Battle that would Set things Straight,that would answer all questions about this topic. That would Say who will be the Victor? All Chapters seek, Crave for Glory to Prove themselves worthy to be called Astartes, To be a Son of Their Primarch, of the Emperor, to give Honor and Respect in his name and shall go down in History. The Imperial Fists would Gladly join their Battle-Brothers after all they are the Founders of the BlackTemplars Chapter. The Crimson Fists also a Brother-Chapter derived from the Imperial Fists, they would understand and would Join in without Hesitation. Perhaps Renegade Chapters as well who are loyal to the Immortal-God Emperor, without our own knowledge... battles shall be filled throughout their Homeworld's Through Space and Xeno Occupied Worlds. Let us not Forget Rival-Chapters as well, they do not see eye to eye with the BlackTemplars but the Goal is one and the same, this would prove that are... maybe... perhaps a little better or would think that they are comparing themselves to the BlackTemplars. Ultramarines... Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Red Templars, White Templars, Sons of Dorn, Salamanders, and all the Other Chapters. Surely they we'll hear this.

The Adeptus Mechanicus, I have Limited knowledge to them, they are mysterious beings but nevertheless they are Still part of the Imperium, they will provide us support, their Great Titans shall envelop the enemies worlds, and Crush any obstacle in their way. And all the other Creations they have made to benefit the Imperium.

I wonder if the Sisters of battle would partake? Perhaps if they desire to Cleanse the Universe, to purify it... that would Frighten any Xeno Lover to come out and Pro-test within the Imperium of course... The Inquisition? Lets just give them a tip that the enemy are harboring Chaos forces or what not? Grey Knights aren't that noble as they were before the new codex arrived... Perhaps other then Heretic, they would slay Xeno.

Its all in my Opinion of Course.
I will continue in my next report.
-BlackTemplar587

3.23*10^4 becomes 32,380, that's the approximate number of Hive Worlds in the Imperium, with populations between 25,000,000,000 and several trillion.

Ok, after that post I don't want to see anyone else mention anything about Tau "fanbois".

Anywho, back the the useless bickering.

It's impossible to argue with them. That's fanbois in general, not just specifically the Tau variety.

agnosto wrote:Ok, after that post I don't want to see anyone else mention anything about Tau "fanbois".

Anywho, back the the useless bickering.

We where just in need of some backup.
And prove him wrong if you can...

You can't. By definition the fanboi cannot be persuaded or argued with.

I didn't mean by fanboyism but by his point.
BT would never go alone in crusade against such powerful force. They would gain suport from several chapters, several sectors would send their IG Regiments, Deathwatch would join to gather relics, Imperial Navy would send some ships and several SM chapters would also send them, SoB would also join to purge xenos in the Emperor's name...
When they all gaiter up they would bring a world of pain to the Tau, but we will never find out since GW won't continue the storyline...

I still contend that the Templars would have enough time thanks to the element of surprise to hit-and-run enough planets to bring the Tau to their knees. Considering Tau FTL communications seem rare if even existant and the fact that the Tau have slower FTL travel than the Imperium would mean that the Templars pop out, blast a planet and then have ample of time to retreat out of the gravity well of said planet, as the Tau can neither coordinate nor respond to such a threat fast enough. Copy-paste for the next planet, the next one after that and so on. Either they gather as much of their fleet as possible without weakening their defenses against the Orks and 'Nids (the IoM isn't the only one fighting on multiple fronts you know...) and send this fleet to a world and hope the Templars show up there or they send out smaller fleets to defend different systems, which means that they're outnumbered and torn to pieces.

You know, before this thread I was thinking about making a black templar army because I just like the idea of a chapter that's thumbed their nose at convention and gets things done the way they need to be regardless of some old book written in the mists of antiquity (I'm extremely proud of that runon sentence by the way).

Now, not so much. Besides they'll probably be just as stupid as grey knights in the next codex with some silly stuff like templar fists and templar cannons...etc and a giant cross that deepstrikes and has destroys everything on the battlefield on a 2+.