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squidhills wrote:

Gitsplitta wrote:Zoats existed before there were tyranids... the eldar used to be able to take them in their early lists... (I had a number of them).

I'm not sure I remember that. My copy of Rogue Trader doesn't mention the Eldar being able to take them, though I admit it could be something from a later 1st edition Eldar-specific book.

Gitsplitta wrote:Jakero were never a played race before, just part of the mythology.

My copy of Rogue Trader would like to disagree with you.

Gitsplitta wrote:Squats were legit... kind of an elite guard army with terminators for HQ. They were cool, would love to see them back.

This sounds like a blend of Rogue Trader (1st Edition) and the Black Codex (2nd Edition). Squats were Imperials in 1st Edition, but I don't remember them getting the Exo Armor until 2nd edition, by which point they were considered Human-descended aliens, rather than a Human army.

Gitsplitta wrote:The biggest come-back by far were the gene stealers, which originally only existed in the bestiary along with a dozen other miscellaneous critters & eventually developed into the tyranid race.

Yup... remember how wierd they looked back then, too? No heads at all, just a neck with teeth. More H.P. Lovecraft and less H.R. Giger, in my opinion.

I can't remember what version of the rules they were... I do remember having (painting , playing) with a small squad of zoats as part of my pirate eldar army. I may still have the figures lying around somewhere...

As to the Jakero... I just don't remember ever seeing them on the gaming table or available in stores. Did they just have stats or were their actually figures made & a spot in an army list for them?

Yeah... very different creatures from what they are now. I actually liked the whole gene stealer cult sequence. Had an insidious, Invasion of the Body Snatchers meets Alien vibe...

I actually liked the whole gene stealer cult sequence. Had an insidious, Invasion of the Body Snatchers meets Alien vibe...

Also who doesn't like huge purple limos?

Gitsplitta wrote:

As to the Jakero... I just don't remember ever seeing them on the gaming table or available in stores. Did they just have stats or were their actually figures made & a spot in an army list for them?

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Misc_40K_-_Limited_Release

I still want an Ambull and Death Ferret.

Cool beans!

I stand corrected... thanks guys.

Gitsplitta wrote:Zoats existed before there were tyranids... the eldar used to be able to take them in their early lists... (I had a number of them).

The biggest come-back by far were the gene stealers, which originally only existed in the bestiary along with a dozen other miscellaneous critters & eventually developed into the tyranid race.

Just to clarify a few points...

Tyranids are in the RT rulebook. They look slightly different and the fluff is a bit embryonic, but they're in there as a playable race.

Genestealers were later expanded into Genestealer Cults, which in their earliest incarnation were Chaos cults (there was even a Genestealer "god" in the warp).

Their paths crossed later, when Genestealers later started showing up in Tyranid army lists. With the 2nd edition Tyranid codex the "modern" relationship was pretty much established, with Genestealers clearly a Tyranid organism and Cults becoming an vanguard of sorts for the Hive Fleets.

Man, I don't remember the early mention of nids at all... have to dig out my old RT rule book and give it a re-read. Thanks gorgon, I appreciate the correction.

I do remember really enjoying fielding zoats with my (foot bound, as everything was back then) eldar... however I did it. I also remember that they almost never survived long enough to actually do anything. Sort of like what can happen to defilers and Iron Clads now-a-days... "big scary thing on the table... kill it, kill it, kill it!"

:-)

My guess is that it's easier to mine past ideas than make new, which isn't necessarily bad.

I hope regardless of anyone's feelings for or against GW that we can all agree that the company is in a bit of a tight spot and needs increased revenue. That means they need releases that will sell well but don't cost as much to make. They also need releases that aren't going to tie them to a whole new army that they will be expected to support forever, just in case they don't have the capacity.

So re-releasing cameos of old and beloved models makes sense. And in the case of the Jokero, I think it works out well for everyone when we get a re-sculpt of pretty high quality. I wouldn't even mind re-releases of old sculpts if the models are desired (Diaz Daemonettes! Diaz Daemonettes!)

The only thing I object to is releasing old models that have an out-dated aesthetic and inferior quality to today's releases, but charging today's prices for them.

The Zoat wrote:Think about it. The Jokaero, after being abandoned for a long time, came back in the GK Codex this year. With Zoats and Fimir coming back in WFB's storm of magic, do you
think the dead races are returning?

Have new Zoat and Fimir models been confirmed? Either way I think it is nice for GW to redo some of the older races be interesting to see updated Gyrinx and Ambull models.

I've been holding out for the Zoats for a while, I was glad to see some hints.

I thought the zoats had been subsumed into the hive fleet, and functioned as a kind of 'ambassador' of sorts (although that was in quite an old book, 'Space Marine', and the Nids have changed into just a kind of entirely instinctual intergalactic locust since then).

My own thoughts, and this is complete supposition on my part, is that Mantic making a 'Forgefathers' race is proof that the Demiurg rumour is more than just a rumour.
Let me explain: GW plans its new releases years before hand, so any new races or concepts would have been at concepts stage months or even years ago. A lot of Mantic staff are ex-GW. If they didn't hear about a 'Demiurg' release while they were staff, I think a lot of the designers are still mates and no doubt chat down the pub - despite GW's new secrecy routine, the designers are still people when it comes down to it, and there are no tapes which self destruct after 5 seconds.

Secondly, when have Mantic released anything that isn't a semi direct (at least) stand-in for an existing GW line? It could be an unbelievable 'heist' of potential Demiurg purchasers if Mantic release their forgefather line, and lots of GW fans buy it because they want 'dwarves in space', unaware that GW's own models are coming a few months down the line (they would have waited) because of GW's daft secrecy policy

Pacific wrote:It could be an unbelievable 'heist' of potential Demiurg purchasers if Mantic release their forgefather line, and lots of GW fans buy it because they want 'dwarves in space', unaware that GW's own models are coming a few months down the line (they would have waited) because of GW's daft secrecy policy

Which would undoubtedly lead to GW implementing a biger, better, secrecy policy of not telling anyone anything about anything including their own employees! Even GW won't know about what GW is releasing, even after it's been released and on the market for two weeks!

GW Board member: "BRILLIANT!"

Or mantic could be aiming for the large group that has been calling for squats for years. The are people willing to buy them whether GW release squats or not.

The Zoat wrote:I've been holding out for the Zoats for a while, I was glad to see some hints.

Really? I would never have guessed.

I don't think we'll be seeing anything major stuff coming back out of the old races. These little dibs and drabs are all we'll be getting, I reckon. It's enough for me, brings a nice warm wave of fuzzy nostalgia. That being said, I'd love to be proven wrong, and for a whole new race to appear.

One of the first races for Manitcs new Sci Fi game are forgefathers, dwarfs in space..........Squats. I have seen a couple of pre release resins and they look superb, very close to the concept sketches that have been flying around. We saw them at the Mantic Open day a couple of weeks ago. This will give players the opportunity to actually have some recent 'squat' models to put together a fan made army list for 40K as well as some incredible launch models for Warpath.

Pacific wrote:I thought the zoats had been subsumed into the hive fleet, and functioned as a kind of 'ambassador' of sorts (although that was in quite an old book, 'Space Marine', and the Nids have changed into just a kind of entirely instinctual intergalactic locust since then).

My own thoughts, and this is complete supposition on my part, is that Mantic making a 'Forgefathers' race is proof that the Demiurg rumour is more than just a rumour.
Let me explain: GW plans its new releases years before hand, so any new races or concepts would have been at concepts stage months or even years ago. A lot of Mantic staff are ex-GW. If they didn't hear about a 'Demiurg' release while they were staff, I think a lot of the designers are still mates and no doubt chat down the pub - despite GW's new secrecy routine, the designers are still people when it comes down to it, and there are no tapes which self destruct after 5 seconds.

Secondly, when have Mantic released anything that isn't a semi direct (at least) stand-in for an existing GW line? It could be an unbelievable 'heist' of potential Demiurg purchasers if Mantic release their forgefather line, and lots of GW fans buy it because they want 'dwarves in space', unaware that GW's own models are coming a few months down the line (they would have waited) because of GW's daft secrecy policy

You're looking to much into things, and as a result, are horribly horribly wrong. There is one simple reason why all this is impossible: NDA. Non-disclosure agreements. Every member of the design studio has to sign one, and it states that if they separate from the GW design studio (such as Alessio Cavatore did), they may not produce anything similar in concept to something that they worked upon during their time with GW for a number of years (usually in the 5-10 year range) after leaving. Its a legally binding contract and one that carries a rather hefty penalty. Alessio hasn't been with Mantic for nearly long enough to be beyond the auspices of an NDA, therefore no Demiurg/Squats on the horizon from the Citadel side of the house (Forgeworld is a separate matter), otherwise Mantic is likely to be out of business in the near future.

4M2A wrote:Or mantic could be aiming for the large group that has been calling for squats for years. The are people willing to buy them whether GW release squats or not.

This.

While they're at it, why not bring back dead wargear and weapons too? I miss the 1d20+2d6+4 Armor Penetration on a chainfist, or the Mole Missile, or the Vortex Grenade

As someone who started playing in 5th, this thread is fascinating, hearing about all the old stuff that used to be around. Subscribed!

chaos0xomega wrote:

Pacific wrote:I thought the zoats had been subsumed into the hive fleet, and functioned as a kind of 'ambassador' of sorts (although that was in quite an old book, 'Space Marine', and the Nids have changed into just a kind of entirely instinctual intergalactic locust since then).

My own thoughts, and this is complete supposition on my part, is that Mantic making a 'Forgefathers' race is proof that the Demiurg rumour is more than just a rumour.
Let me explain: GW plans its new releases years before hand, so any new races or concepts would have been at concepts stage months or even years ago. A lot of Mantic staff are ex-GW. If they didn't hear about a 'Demiurg' release while they were staff, I think a lot of the designers are still mates and no doubt chat down the pub - despite GW's new secrecy routine, the designers are still people when it comes down to it, and there are no tapes which self destruct after 5 seconds.

Secondly, when have Mantic released anything that isn't a semi direct (at least) stand-in for an existing GW line? It could be an unbelievable 'heist' of potential Demiurg purchasers if Mantic release their forgefather line, and lots of GW fans buy it because they want 'dwarves in space', unaware that GW's own models are coming a few months down the line (they would have waited) because of GW's daft secrecy policy

You're looking to much into things, and as a result, are horribly horribly wrong. There is one simple reason why all this is impossible: NDA. Non-disclosure agreements. Every member of the design studio has to sign one, and it states that if they separate from the GW design studio (such as Alessio Cavatore did), they may not produce anything similar in concept to something that they worked upon during their time with GW for a number of years (usually in the 5-10 year range) after leaving. Its a legally binding contract and one that carries a rather hefty penalty. Alessio hasn't been with Mantic for nearly long enough to be beyond the auspices of an NDA, therefore no Demiurg/Squats on the horizon from the Citadel side of the house (Forgeworld is a separate matter), otherwise Mantic is likely to be out of business in the near future.

Well, like I said in my post, complete supposition on my part

Alessio might not have been working on the project himself, but could have been aware of it's existence. He most certainly would have been aware of all the Jes Goodwin concept artwork and design, most probably been involved in the brainstorming sessions, that were done prior to the release of the Tau (of which the new forgegathers design aesthetic has followed quite closely).
And NDA's or not, people still talk down the pub. Until GW create some of AI that can design games for them, amongst the design community it's impossible to ensure a complete information blackout - hence why we still have a news and rumours section regarding their releases.

Although, as 42MA said I also think it's likely that Mantic might well be just catering for the vocal group who have been lambasting GW for burying the squat concept, and like you said I am looking into it far too much

I miss Thudd Guns, Imperial Robots, Madboyz, ork Plasmacannon beerkegs, Pulsa rokkits.. the list goes on and on

Ah, nostaligia.

I want Dogs of War to come back, that would be epic.

This post is for the benefit of those of us who know a little less about these old races:

Zoats:

In Warhammer Fantasy Zoats were a mystic druid-like race living deep in the forests of the old world, sometimes appearing in Wood Elf Armies. They were magical and Dragon Ogre strength in combat but were pretty slow. For some unknown reason Lizardmen feared the Zoats. They also appeared in Warhammer 40,000 as a genetically engineered slave race to the Tyranids, seeming to work as ambassadors as they were more rugged and could survive conditions of hostile planets better than the Tyranids themselves, and I believe were also in Eldar armies at a time, but were completely removed from canon in 40K, and until recenntly it was believed they were lost completely from Fantasy too, but apparently not thanks to SoM

Squats:

Squats are short and stocky descendants of humans who colonised high gravity worlds, they used bikes and a majority of large guns, filling many of the traditional dwarf archetypes being short, stubborn, short tempered and aggressive. I can't really talk about how they were to play as I've never used them myself. They, contary to popular opinion, weren't removed due to being unpopular and not selling much (though this probably didnt help matters) rather the design staff felt they had messed up space dwarfs and not done them properly, causing them not to return and be eaten by Tyranids befor being removed from existance completely (this is according to Space Dwarf online's message from Jervis anyway)

Beastmen:

Beastmen are similar in a way to those of the Fantasy universe we all know and love, despite the guns of course. Their large half-human half-animal abhuman warriors with a nasty temper. They were used in the Imperial Guard as these abhumans (though they seem closer to mutants to me) were introduced to the Imperial religion, believing the Emperor to be a vengeful god demanding blood be spilled and that they must atone for the sin of being a mutant/abhuman. Above are the only three Beastmen models ever released by Games Workshop for Warhammer 40K even if converting them from fantasy is relatively simple and make great counts as models

Praetorians

The Praetorians were a form of Imperial Guard, and a rather popular one at that I might add, based on the British Warriors of the Zulu Wars in the 1870s. Unlike most armies that have been removed from canon their rather easier to get hold of online for a reasonable price, due to their distinctive appearane and the major difference between this appearance and the usual grimdark Imperium and warhammer 40k in general. This also seems to be the reason they were removed from production, I'm unsure if they survive on in canon, but like many of the ranges that was dropped, I think they may have been written out.

Slann:

The Slann are interesting as they seem to remain in canon, but in a different form. The Old Slann (forgive me if I make a mistake, this isnt my area of expertise) were the descendants of the old ones, amphibious or reptillian creatures of incredible power who fathered the races such as the humans, orks and jokera, still surviving today in small primal groups, but maintaining their incredible technology. In more recent fluff they appear to be the servants of the Old Ones and were created by them, they also no longer have models or any kind of army presence like they once did, I also do not know if their considered extinct in the current fluff.

Fimir

The Fimir are a cycloptian and half daemon races that live in the swamps of the north west of the Old World, mainly in Albion, based on the legends of the Fomorians. Fimir females are infertile and rare, so the Fimir used to capture females of other races to breed (very much like the Deep Ones from H.P Lovecraft's works), which combined with bad rules and not that many sales was why they were removed as an army originally. They also generated a fog around themselves to shroud them from missile weapons.

Amazons:

The Amazons are intersting, while they exist in Mordheim and Blood Bowl, and have been mentioned in the fluff of warhammer fantasy many times I'm unsure if they ever existed as a faction of their own, or remain in Warhammer Fantasy canon. They used to exist alongside the old slann and the pygmies within Lustria, at war with the lizardmen at the time, or serving them, it escapes me as to which. There was also a regiment of the renown in the Dogs of War, Anaconda's Amazons, which obviously were from the Amazon race

Kislev:

Kislev was a part of the empire ((and for that matter, fluffwise it still is). They had a Slavic based appearance and were rather rugged men of the north, a quite popular supplement to Empire armies, though it was possible to make an entirely Kislev army. They are a very beautiful army to look at, known best for their hero upon a bear (pictured above) and their oft used Kislev Horse Archers, used many times in earlier editions (as far as I know mostly against Orcs and Goblins to draw out fanatics)

There are many other armies, the following is a few from both Fantasy and 40K, which have been disccontinued in rules, models, fluff or all of the above:

Fantasy: Sea Elves, Nippon, Gnomes, Halflings, Cathay, Dogs of War, Half-Orcs and Albion

40K: Unable to think of any off the top of my head

I thought Kislev was its own separate Empire entirely, just closely allied with the Empire?

As for Praetorians, I belive there were rumors floating about that Black Library was going to be putting out a book about them, but it was postponed indefinitely by the author.

Murdock129 wrote:
Slann:

The Slann are interesting as they seem to remain in canon, but in a different form. The Old Slann (forgive me if I make a mistake, this isnt my area of expertise) were the descendants of the old ones, amphibious or reptillian creatures of incredible power who fathered the races such as the humans, orks and jokera, still surviving today in small primal groups, but maintaining their incredible technology. In more recent fluff they appear to be the servants of the Old Ones and were created by them, they also no longer have models or any kind of army presence like they once did, I also do not know if their considered extinct in the current fluff.

Almost right. The Old Slann *were* the Old Ones in early 40K and WFB fluff. This was explicitly retconned in WFB with the first Lizardman army book, where they became the servants of the Old Ones. This was not explicitly retconned in 40K however, although references to the Old Slann disappeared and were replaced with references to the Old Ones. Further muddying the waters are some lines in the Necron codex that refer to the Old Ones' master of astromancy and their "cold-blooded wisdom," which sounds very much like the Slann. The upshot is that it's still possible that Old Ones = Slann in 40K, although clearly Old Ones <> Slann in WFB.

squidhills wrote:

Baragash wrote:

squidhills wrote:As for Fmir and Zoats in Storm of Magic, I hadn't heard about that. What info do you have on the subject, because I'm a tad curious to see a 40K critter running around in Fantasy... I thought GW had officially separated the two universes a while ago...

You mean a Fantasy critter running around in 40k

I was referring to the Zoat being in Fantasy, not the Fmir being in 40K. I know the Fmir are a Fantasy race that was removed long ago (but not much else about them). As far as I know, the Zoat were not a Fantasy race, originally. I could be wrong, though. I didn't get into fantasy until 5th edition.

Zoats have been a part of WHFB for a long time, they were playable in the original edition of WHF roleplay released in 1986 (my lovely but falling apart copy was a £1 find at a carboot) and as a few GW historians may realise this predates the release of 40k by a year.

With regards to Kislev, there was indeed a seperate army list for use way back.
IIRC it was given away free with an old copy of WD back when it was a proper magazine that had articles, interviews and awesome bat reps.....

Wow. So the Zoats really were a Fantasy race. I did not know that.

As for the Praetorians, as far as I know they are still viable and active in 40K fluff. The models are discontinued, but then again, all metal IG models are discontinued. GW is still selling what stock they have, but I expect once their backlog is depleted, we will see the Valhallans, Tallarn, Vostroyans, and old-school Cadians vanish from the scene.

Which reminds me, I need to order more Tallarns before they go the way of the Dodo...

Zoats were a Wood Elf army choice back in Ravening Hordes.
1987.

Their stats and details were available in WHFB 3rd ed.

That's about the time I started up so they may have existed back before that, but Rogue Trader didn't start until after I'd been in the hobby for nearly a year.

It's been a long time but the zoats have been 'mystical forest creatures' since their creation. The fantasy zoat models certainly came before the 40k ones.

I have a fantasy zoat and it's lovely. You really don't see them for sale often at all.

squidhills wrote:This sounds like a blend of Rogue Trader (1st Edition) and the Black Codex (2nd Edition). Squats were Imperials in 1st Edition, but I don't remember them getting the Exo Armor until 2nd edition, by which point they were considered Human-descended aliens, rather than a Human army.

Squats had their own list in 1st Ed, it came out in the 40K Compenium (Red book with Ultramarines on the cover), they were mostly equipped with Imperial stuff but could get the EXO armour etc.

Something else of note, the original Zoats were named as a shortened form of Zoanthrope, which has now been reused in the current line of 'nids.

Are they really redoing Codex Space Marine again?
I am still pissed about the newest edition, the previous one let you do so much more!
Same with Codex Chaos Space Marines/Eye of Terror...