Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Phantom wrote:Yeah, but you have to admit they are the bravest when it comes to fighting the things in the 40k universe, heck I doubt many people today could do what the armies of Imperium does.

Debatable. Are we discussing the average human? Or the armies?

I think that with the proper equipment, a modern day soldier wouldn't feel out of place on a 40k battlefied, fighting alongside the IG. War is War. Always has been always will be. The means, equipment and enemies will change, but the bravery, and mental fortitude neccesary to go into combat will never change.

Now if we are comparing an average, untrained, unequipped human against a comparable xeno, then the aliens will win every time (except maybe tau). As human, we have relatively slow reflexes, our muscles are (naturally) rather undense (though this can change with training), our skeletons are thin and unprotective, and we have few if any redundancies in physiology. This is all of course in relation to animals on terra.

PraetorDave wrote:

Debatable. Are we discussing the average human? Or the armies?

I think that with the proper equipment, a modern day soldier wouldn't feel out of place on a 40k battlefied, fighting alongside the IG. War is War. Always has been always will be. The means, equipment and enemies will change, but the bravery, and mental fortitude neccesary to go into combat will never change.

Now if we are comparing an average, untrained, unequipped human against a comparable xeno, then the aliens will win every time (except maybe tau). As human, we have relatively slow reflexes, our muscles are (naturally) rather undense (though this can change with training), our skeletons are thin and unprotective, and we have few if any redundancies in physiology. This is all of course in relation to animals on terra.

We are counting Humanity as a whole. From the ordinary civilian to the might Astartes.

In a word, No.

Humans are average to ok at most things. IOM Fanboys tend to flock to threads like this

SM are not humans, but i'll include them as such to prevent the fanboys nerdraging. They even tend to refer to humans as 'you humans...' not 'we humans'

There are a couple of misunderstandings about the setting in this thread.

Firstly- humans are NOT winning. They are losing. Check out the Manin rulebook's fluff section

Humanity has massive numbers in total, but so do other races. Numerically orks easily outnumber humanity, nids might, depending on who you read.

Humanity has big big guns, but so do other races

Bravest? Not really. They have people with bolt pistols ready to shoot the first guy who flees, which tends to reinforce the spine If you read braver as not scared the orks, necrons, daemons etc have you beat, and if you put it as 'scared out their wits but still fighting' the grots, tau or eldar guardians likely take it.

Finest warriors- Define finest If you mean prettiest and most bling laden you might have a point in BA, but of you mean best there are better basic warriors per race out there than a Guardsman. SM aren't the basic warrior of humanity, but an elite and supposedly rare force. Other races have elites that are better than SM in general.

Most capable- Individually, or en mass? Nids and Daemons have mass produced badasses (i'm ignoring unique individuals here) that make the best human elite look rather sad by comparison one on one, and with no shortage of supply or need to train them.

Racially the Orks are far more capable, as they can successfully prosecute a full-scale war with the contents of Crazy Bob's Junkyard and U Pull It

Iur_tae_mont wrote: The only time they ever turned tail (that I remember, may be wrong on this since I haven't read much fluff in a while) Is when Captain Ventris threatened to blow up Pavonis if they didn't leave.

How about Kronus & Kaurava when the Ethereals got killed & the Tau had to flee?

My statement remains, Necrons are the best warriors in the 41st Millennium.
(of course, they are are second to the mighty Ork WAAAGH! )

Ascalam wrote:

There are a couple of misunderstandings about the setting in this thread.
Firstly- humans are NOT winning. They are losing. Check out the Main rulebook's fluff section

You missed page 116?




See thats the future.
Humans are the spocks and kirks of enterprise. Xenos are the redshirts...and we know their fate, don't we?

Eldar are the bravest, no contest. Most sentient beings fear death but only the Eldar have to fear their afterlife. A lost battle will, in the very best case, mean the eternal twilight existence in the infinity circuits.
If the unfortunate Eldar's soulstone gets somehow destroyed, which is possible after a defeat, then Slaanesh will torture his still self aware soul for all eternity.

To overcome not only the fear of death but also the fear for your very soul requires some serious guts.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I would prolly say Tau were higher than Humans in Bravery.

Before Cao starts on "They haven't fought anything".

they HAVE fought Daemons (they think They killed Tzeentch)
They HAVE fought Tyranids (And won! read Shadowsun's Bio)
They HAVE fought Orkz (And won! Once again, see our good Friend O'Shassera's Bio. Page 46 of the Tau Empire Codex)
They HAVE fought Necrons (Alongside Ultramarines)

The only time they ever turned tail (that I remember, may be wrong on this since I haven't read much fluff in a while) Is when Captain Ventris threatened to blow up Pavonis if they didn't leave.

And on the most skilled: Eldar say hi!

IMO, for the Most brave, I'd prolly say Eldar on Both accounts, but Humans aren't high up there. Remember, for all 1,000,000 Space marines and all however many Sisters of Battle, there are trillions of Guardsmen. The ratio of Space marines to Guardsman is prolly 1:1,000,000 a tleast

When did they fight necros with SMs ?


Humans can be quite brave at times. Going to battle in the worst armor with the worst weapons, that has got to take some balls. That or they don't realize what they are getting into.

KingDeath wrote:Eldar are the bravest, no contest. Most sentient beings fear death but only the Eldar have to fear their afterlife. A lost battle will, in the very best case, mean the eternal twilight existence in the infinity circuits.
If the unfortunate Eldar's soulstone gets somehow destroyed, which is possible after a defeat, then Slaanesh will torture his still self aware soul for all eternity.

To overcome not only the fear of death but also the fear for your very soul requires some serious guts.

As much as I love the IOM this point is a really good one. Space Marines are the best warriors, but kind of cheat with the designed for war. Eldar however, when they choose a warrior path are risking having their soul tortured and devoured by Slaanesh. Most Eldar who choose this a warrior path have to conquer his fear and anger or get stuck in that aspect. That takes a lot of bravery.

Edit: Their emotions are also 100x as sensitive as a humans making it even harder to control.

1hadhq wrote:

Ascalam wrote:

There are a couple of misunderstandings about the setting in this thread.
Firstly- humans are NOT winning. They are losing. Check out the Main rulebook's fluff section

You missed page 116?




No, i read that. You missed pages 118 onwards?

There may be a new dawn coming etc etc, but right now they are losing





See thats the future.
Humans are the spocks and kirks of enterprise. Xenos are the redshirts...and we know their fate, don't we?

Yup. They become the Command staff in Next Generation, and rarely die. They have people for that

First of all, Space Marines are certainly not humans. Not anymore. They are an entirely different species, created with humanity as the starting point.

Secondly, I would say that humans are neither the most capable or most brave race in 40k. Sure, it takes some serious cajones for a guardsman to stand his ground in front of a wave of charging nids, but he's most likely got something just as scary behind him in the form of a commisar's pistol. Plus, a basic human civilian is pretty pathetic when compared to the basic citizen equivalent of other races, except Tau and Grots.

Civvy vs civvy:
Eldar and Dark Eldar would kick a human's face in. They have a more developed muscle structure, are faster and more agile, and on the whole smarter.
Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, and Chaos don't really have civilians, so that's kind of a moot point.
I already said a human would probably beat a Tau.

In terms of militaries and fighting forces, all humanity really has going for it is numbers and cheap equipment (I'm only really talking about the Guard here because I don't consider Marines human). Orks, Deamons, and Nids outnumber and generally outfight humans, while Eldar and Dark Eldar are more mobile and better equipped. Tau are also better equipped. Necrons are just in a league of their own, fluffwise, as their technology, numbers (most are still sleeping, but still) and general fearlessness are unmatched.

And Brother Coa, no offense but why do you always start these threads and then respond so vehemently when people disagree with you and present opposing points? I really think you need to mellow out a little.

He likes the sound of Humanity Fanboys chanting in chorus

Brother Coa wrote:...are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?

This question regards all Humans ( Marines, Guard, Sisters, Navy, PDF... ). So, waht do you think?

Please stop.

Humanity excells due to numbers (Yes, Orks outnumber them, but Orks are not a UNIFIED force, the Imperium for the most part is, Tyranids are relatively unknown in this regard), and easily manufactured, fairly efficient technology.

Orks are probably better at warfare, indeed, fighting is their only purpose, they have an instinctual grasp for all aspects of warfare.

nomotog wrote:
When did they fight necros with SMs ?

"At some point, the Tau sent an expeditionary force to the planet Malbrede where they came into conflict with the Ultramarines Chapter in 936.M41. However, the world proved to be cursed when their fighting awakened the sleeping Necrons from their tomb beneath the surface. In an effort to combat this threat, the Tau and the Ultramarines combined forces to defeat the Necrons. Once the conflict was over, the Tau were allowed to evacuate their forces by Marneus Calgar who proceeded to destroy Malbrede through an Exterminatus."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:He likes the sound of Humanity Fanboys chanting in chorus

And you hate Humans?

Brother Coa wrote:"At some point, the Tau sent an expeditionary force to the planet Malbrede where they came into conflict with the Ultramarines Chapter in 936.M41. However, the world proved to be cursed when their fighting awakened the sleeping Necrons from their tomb beneath the surface. In an effort to combat this threat, the Tau and the Ultramarines combined forces to defeat the Necrons. Once the conflict was over, the Tau were allowed to evacuate their forces by Marneus Calgar who proceeded to destroy Malbrede through an Exterminatus."

And you hate Humans?

Indeed. The Tau also didn't flee the battle like you said they did before.

You're hilarious.

Brother Coa wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:There are many races that are much better at fighting then Humans.

Like?

Astartes, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Kroot...

Humans make up for the lack of general fighting prowess by using tanks.

Lots and lots of tanks.

And artillery.

Lots and lots of artillery.

Sure, you may not be very brave, but it's okay, they've been splattered across the battlefield by high caliber explosive munitions.

The Malbede bit is correct. The IOM graciously 'allowed' the tau to evacuate before exterminatus was used.


I don't hate humans. I don't think they are the best though, just for being humans

You have to admit that you are something of an IOM fanatic though, and not prone to admitting that they aren't automatically the victors in every conflict.

The IOM wins some, and loses more.

Re the Starchild prophecy:

Are we assuming that any written prophecy in 40K is true?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:There are many races that are much better at fighting then Humans.

Like?

Astartes, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Kroot...

Humans make up for the lack of general fighting prowess by using tanks.

Lots and lots of tanks.

And artillery.

Lots and lots of artillery.

Sure, you may not be very brave, but it's okay, they've been splattered across the battlefield by high caliber explosive munitions.

THIS

Nuke em til they glow, then curse them in the dark. It's what humanity usually does in a SF setting

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:"At some point, the Tau sent an expeditionary force to the planet Malbrede where they came into conflict with the Ultramarines Chapter in 936.M41. However, the world proved to be cursed when their fighting awakened the sleeping Necrons from their tomb beneath the surface. In an effort to combat this threat, the Tau and the Ultramarines combined forces to defeat the Necrons. Once the conflict was over, the Tau were allowed to evacuate their forces by Marneus Calgar who proceeded to destroy Malbrede through an Exterminatus."

And you hate Humans?

Indeed. The Tau also didn't flee the battle like you said they did before.

You're hilarious.

They flee when the Ultramarines give them the green light, they even didn't stay to see the Exterminatus


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:The Malbede bit is correct. The IOM graciously 'allowed' the tau to evacuate before exterminatus was used.

I don't hate humans. Yeah right I don't think they are the best though, just for being humans I didn't also say they are the best, but they can kick a lot of ass and win unvinable battles...

You have to admit that you are something of an IOM fanatic though, and not prone to admitting that they aren't automatically the victors in every conflict.

The IOM wins some, and loses more.

Me fanatic? Why I am just saying "God Emperor" when something happened and people say "God". And I am preaching the Imperial Creed to little kids - what is wrong with that? Oh, and I break the nationalist fight, between 2 countries, with more than 100 people on Internet saying that "We are all brothers and that the Emperor protect us." - I receive 50+ friend request then

They don't flee. They evacuate the planet (the mariens claim it's because they said they could, but as the fluff is written from the IOM's perspective...


Heh - sounds fanatic to me

The refusal to admit that the IOM can lose, and that it's doomed despite fluff clearly saying so does indicate a certain fanaticism, as does the 'question' posited at the original post of this thread.

You have stated in many (many, many) other threads that you DO consider humanity to be the best.


*sidenote* I actually thing the SM are pretty cool. I've played them and collected them before. I would do the same for the Guard, if i could afford all the $60+ kits it requires. I do get a bit tired with GW's Humanity Uber Alles (sp) bias though, and with those folks who simply cannot conceive of the possibility that the IOM might ever lose, or that the SM might ever lose a battle. I've actually had opponents go into crying bawling, screaming tantrums when their Marines lost a battle, pointing at phrases from the fluff like Marneus Calgar holding off a whole Waaagh for 3 days in their codex as they scream at me, claiming that there is no way on Terra that the Emperor would let Calgar die to a single grot mob, and therefore they should have him back at full wounds before we continue our 'game'... (not kidding..had this happen before, and similar from other people who took the Marine fluff a little to much to heart )

Brother Coa wrote:They flee when the Ultramarines give them the green light, they even didn't stay to see the Exterminatus

What? So they should have stayed on the planet while it was being blown up? Are you serious?

Also, you're the guy who says people who prefer factions other than the Imperium are human race traitors. =\

Unless you are joking (Holy crap I really hope you are joking), yeah, that's pretty much fanaticism.

Ascalam wrote:
The refusal to admit that the IOM can lose, and that it's doomed despite fluff clearly saying so does indicate a certain fanaticism, as does the 'question' posited at the original post of this thread.
I

They can lose, just look at Gryphone IV, Taros, 1'st War for Armageddon, Horus Heresy, Istvaan V, Trygon, Damnos, Democles, Medusa V, Battle for Sotha... But when they lose, they make their opponents pay for it. And we all know about your pro-Human hate that you are implementing on every thread ( hell, you probably had a great smiley when watching Humans get slaughtered in Avatar, Transformers and Battle L.A. ).
And Imperium is not losing now - they started to lose territories but just "started" ( Nazi Germany started to lose WW 2 in 1942 and still they needed 3 more years to lose entirely ). So saying that they are losing is inaccurate ( they still regain most worlds they fought for ). And my question is to see people opinions, I occasionally ask when I need more then just simple "no" but I respect other opinions ( I don't approve the hate dough ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, you're the guy who says people who prefer factions other than the Imperium are human race traitors. =\

Just ask a certain one Tau fan what he told me. And not all are traitors ( this is a game after all ) but when people get to much int other faction that they start to see Humans as weaklings, forgetting that they are Human to and that is treason.
And I am not joking. Want me to put that on my signature?

Brother Coa wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:He likes the sound of Humanity Fanboys chanting in chorus

And you hate Humans?

Get a job in customer service then tell me you don't

The skill that humanity has over the other races is blind faith and numbers. Means there's lots of minds too busy to think about the orders passed down to them.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.

Foolish human - we wage wars, simply not in the narrow, contrived meaning of the word which you use.

Extermination, not war. One doesn't wage war with insignificant lesser beings, the word is too much of a compliment for them as it implies that they are almost equal enough to be considered a slight threat.

n0t_u wrote:
The skill that humanity has over the other races is blind faith and numbers. Means there's lots of minds too busy to think about the orders passed down to them. Ever heard abot commanding officers?

Humans use lot's of armor, artillery, fortifications and ordinance to make up for lack of strength and numbers. And they use that equipment in a way to bring down lot's of enemies very effectively. They also use strategies and tactics to compensate for lack of brute strength against some hard-core enemies.
They are not weak at all...

Brother Coa wrote:Just ask a certain one Tau fan what he told me. And not all are traitors ( this is a game after all ) but when people get to much int other faction that they start to see Humans as weaklings, forgetting that they are Human to and that is treason.
And I am not joking. Want me to put that on my signature?

Humanity has to compete with lumbering green brutes that can bend reality to accomodate their insane world-view, psychic space elves who can move almost faster than a human can see, undead automotons that physically rival their best warriors wielding technology that is essentially magic to them and are incapable of dying, ravenous bugs that can cut through ceramite and use their own biology as guns, extradimensional beings formed by colossal entities that are themselves created from the emotions of the sentient races of the galaxy, and... Tau.

Compared to these (Except Tau), humans are weaklings... Individually.

Individually, a human is weak. United, humanity is strong.

Um.. starting to lose is still losing. If you are losing more territory than you are gaining then you are losing

I didn't say they've lost yet, just that they are losing, and are doomed to lose eventually.

To qualify my view on humanity- Humans are ok. Nice race, though a bit crude and too prone to messing up their environment/picking fights/doing stuff they shouldn't..

The Imperium i'm less fond of. Humanity and the Imperium are not the same thing, though most of the time they are congruent. There are non-IOM humans out there. As far as I'm concerned the best thing for Humanity would be for the Imperium to collapse, and be replaced b y a less totalitarian, venal, xenophobic and technophobic culture that would allow humanity to actually be Human

The IOM is ok at what it does. It fights the impossible fights (the losses are generally tactfully left out or reclassified as wins) and does all sorts of pointlessly heroic slaughter in all sorts of places That said it is burdened by a lousy superstructure that can take centuries to make a decision, internal politics and strife between factions, and a foreign policy that makes the Nazi's look like Greenpeace

Ascalam wrote:Um.. starting to lose is still losing. If you are losing more territory than you are gaining then you are losing

I didn't say they've lost yet, just that they are losing, and are doomed to lose eventually.

To qualify my view on humanity- Humans are ok. Nice race, though a bit crude and too prone to messing up their environment/picking fights/doing stuff they shouldn't..

The Imperium i'm less fond of. Humanity and the Imperium are not the same thing, though most of the time they are congruent. There are non-IOM humans out there. As far as I'm concerned the best thing for Humanity would be for the Imperium to collapse, and be replaced b y a less totalitarian, venal, xenophobic and technophobic culture that would allow humanity to actually be Human

The IOM is ok at what it does. It fights the impossible fights (the losses are generally tactfully left out or reclassified as wins) and does all sorts of pointlessly heroic slaughter in all sorts of places That said it is burdened by a lousy superstructure that can take centuries to make a decision, internal politics and strife between factions, and a foreign policy that makes the Nazi's look like Greenpeace

And you are forgetting the most important thing: Imperium = Humanity. I will just quote rulebook you are so found of: "Indeed, without the protection of the Imperium the Human race would fall prey to countless race attacking it." Other Human factions are either the lost colonies, Chaos or traitors. And what is the capital of the Imperium? - Earth. Human homeworld. And every Human alive has a debt to the Emperor for being alive at all ( without Emperor uniting Earth - no more Mankind ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:Humanity has to compete with lumbering green brutes that can bend reality to accomodate their insane world-view, psychic space elves who can move almost faster than a human can see, undead automotons that physically rival their best warriors wielding technology that is essentially magic to them and are incapable of dying, ravenous bugs that can cut through ceramite and use their own biology as guns, extradimensional beings formed by colossal entities that are themselves created from the emotions of the sentient races of the galaxy, and... Tau.

Compared to these (Except Tau), humans are weaklings... Individually.

Individually, a human is weak. United, humanity is strong.

Agree... ( see, we are returning you slowly... )

Brother Coa wrote:

n0t_u wrote:
The skill that humanity has over the other races is blind faith and numbers. Means there's lots of minds too busy to think about the orders passed down to them. Ever heard abot commanding officers?

Humans use lot's of armor, artillery, fortifications and ordinance to make up for lack of strength and numbers. And they use that equipment in a way to bring down lot's of enemies very effectively. They also use strategies and tactics to compensate for lack of brute strength against some hard-core enemies.
They are not weak at all...

Who do you think gives the orders they so blindly follow? High Lords of Terra, which must be followed without question trickling down to the commanding officers in the battlefield; grunts themselves have no say. I can't remember it exactly but there was a quote about it by an Inquisitor if I recall correctly, something about a mind full of faith leaves no room for doubt I think.

All the humans really need to make up for is strength, they have numbers and their blind faith on their side. By no means are they as efficient as some of the other races (the winner clearly being Orks, they use junk to make more junk basically), but they get the job done most of the time.

Never said they were weak, just those are their strengths and they play to them.
The Guardsmen themselves are only as brave as the Commissar that leads them.

Brother Coa wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Um.. starting to lose is still losing. If you are losing more territory than you are gaining then you are losing

I didn't say they've lost yet, just that they are losing, and are doomed to lose eventually.

To qualify my view on humanity- Humans are ok. Nice race, though a bit crude and too prone to messing up their environment/picking fights/doing stuff they shouldn't..

The Imperium i'm less fond of. Humanity and the Imperium are not the same thing, though most of the time they are congruent. There are non-IOM humans out there. As far as I'm concerned the best thing for Humanity would be for the Imperium to collapse, and be replaced b y a less totalitarian, venal, xenophobic and technophobic culture that would allow humanity to actually be Human

The IOM is ok at what it does. It fights the impossible fights (the losses are generally tactfully left out or reclassified as wins) and does all sorts of pointlessly heroic slaughter in all sorts of places That said it is burdened by a lousy superstructure that can take centuries to make a decision, internal politics and strife between factions, and a foreign policy that makes the Nazi's look like Greenpeace

And you are forgetting the most important thing: Imperium = Humanity. I will just quote rulebook you are so found of: "Indeed, without the protection of the Imperium the Human race would fall prey to countless race attacking it." Other Human factions are either the lost colonies, Chaos or traitors. And what is the capital of the Imperium? - Earth. Human homeworld. And every Human alive has a debt to the Emperor for being alive at all ( without Emperor uniting Earth - no more Mankind ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:Humanity has to compete with lumbering green brutes that can bend reality to accomodate their insane world-view, psychic space elves who can move almost faster than a human can see, undead automotons that physically rival their best warriors wielding technology that is essentially magic to them and are incapable of dying, ravenous bugs that can cut through ceramite and use their own biology as guns, extradimensional beings formed by colossal entities that are themselves created from the emotions of the sentient races of the galaxy, and... Tau.

Compared to these (Except Tau), humans are weaklings... Individually.

Individually, a human is weak. United, humanity is strong.

Agree... ( see, we are returning you slowly... )

And you are forgertting that some of the fluff sounds a lot like it was turned out from the Imperium's Departmenta Propaganda. Doesn't always make it true If all the fluff was 100% accurate there would be a lot of alternate realities out there.

Imperium does not equal Humanity. It is based on Humanity's ancestral homeworld, yes, and the vast majority of the human race are Imperial subjects, but not all. As long as a single Homo Sapiens is not under Imperial control (and there are lost human worlds out there from before the Imperium existed) the Imperium anf Humanity are not identical. I sincerely doubt that anyone from the Chaos Legions, undiscovered human worlds or human worlds that have renounced the Emperor feel that they have a debt to him.

The Emperor united earth, yes, and then put together the Imperium. BEFORE that happened humanity colonized the galaxy, during the Golden Age, and the IOM hasn't united all those worlds, has it? Who's to say there isn't another human empire out there, or dozens of them ?

You're not fond of the rulebook? Given it is the setting that we're arguing about i'd hope that you are too From the Imperial point of view humanity is doomed if not protected by the Emperor. In general this is true, as much of the Human race is in the IOM, and would fall prey to the baddies out there with it gone. In the case of those humans who don't even know it exists, have already rejected it or are under the protection of other powers/forces/races I don't think they'd suddenly become any more vulnerable than they already are to non-human aggression.

1hadhq wrote:
You missed page 116?

Ascalam wrote:
No, i read that. You missed pages 118 onwards?

There may be a new dawn coming etc etc, but right now they are losing

Losing battles isn't a problem as you should always aim to win the WAR.
Final victory is the promise.

page 118 onwards is fine. I'd be worried of page 101.

1hadhq wrote:
Humans are the spocks and kirks of enterprise. Xenos are the redshirts...and we know their fate, don't we?

Ascalam wrote:
Yup. They become the Command staff in Next Generation, and rarely die. They have people for that

Sentenced to drink tea and endless debates is a fate I would try to evade...

Most capable when it comes to warfare?

Orks. They are designed for nothing more than scrapping. That is their raison d'etre. To fight.

Bravest?

If in the context of fighting the good fight despite the fact that they can't win, against forces that consider them insignificant then humans. They have a penchant to keep fighting even beyond the limits of common sense.

I didn't also say they are the best

are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?

That sounds a lot like 'best' to me.

And I still don't see humans as being the most capable in the 40k universe. Even Tau beat humans at their usual main thing: adaptability.