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Humanity, in the 41st millenium, is weak. Humanity is a fool. They had the galaxy in the palm of their hands then let it slip away to one of their own. Let them burn. Their advantage comes from numbers and blind stupidity.

I say the humans greatest advantage is that before the Long Night, humans had some of the most cutting edge technology, motivation to expand and spread humanity. And with the coming of the Crusade, had the drive to conquer, kill every xeno and repopulate damn near every rock that humans could live on. Then build huge industrial centers on all of them. Humans greatest advantage at this point in the sheer number of humans, human controlled planets, and number of industrial complexes.

As time goes on, the Imperium only gets weaker, losses people, losses planets, losses technology, losses industrial planets. Now, if the Imperium were able to remove the bureaucratic corruption, get the Mechanicum to start reinventing technology and get some coordinated drive behind their military campaigns, they would rape every contender.

But only one man has been able to do that before, and he is taking a very long nap on terra.

iproxtaco wrote:

Ascalam wrote:I've seen fluff that shows that they don't consider themselves human.

To be fair, they started off human, but with all the extra organs and genetic tinkering i doubt they would be considered Homo Sapiens any more.

They are either a different breed of human - Homo Astartes, or n0t human any more (Depending in exactly where you draw the line 'human')

The last point I'd like to expand on. Where do you draw the line?

@ iproxtaco

Stealers reproduce by infecting other creastures.

Stealer hybrids have just as much claim to humanity as Astartes do, perhaps more, as they are the result of actual breeding between 2 humans, one of whom has has their dna altered. Purestrain stealers are born from hybrid parents that are almost completely human (barrign the fact that the child they have will be a purestrain stealer).

Stealer hybrids are quite different. For one there's an actual reproductive process to create them, the exchange of genes to form a new organism. I'd agree that they're an entirely new species for this fact alone.

Astartes are modified post birth with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens

Stealer Hybrids are modified from conception with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens.

The extra organs they slap into an astartes are alien too, biologically speaking.

And therein lies the difference. Astartes are humans, with extra organs, Stealer Hybrids are entirely new organisms.

Look at it this way: Genestealers and Astartes both reproduce by taking humans, and changing them into their own species. Astartes are parasites, using humanity to bolster it's ranks.

Humans do not have two hearts.

=Homo Astartes.


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shimraa wrote:I say the humans greatest advantage is that before the Long Night, humans had some of the most cutting edge technology, motivation to expand and spread humanity. And with the coming of the Crusade, had the drive to conquer, kill every xeno and repopulate damn near every rock that humans could live on. Then build huge industrial centers on all of them. Humans greatest advantage at this point in the sheer number of humans, human controlled planets, and number of industrial complexes.

As time goes on, the Imperium only gets weaker, losses people, losses planets, losses technology, losses industrial planets. Now, if the Imperium were able to remove the bureaucratic corruption, get the Mechanicum to start reinventing technology and get some coordinated drive behind their military campaigns, they would rape every contender.

But only one man has been able to do that before, and he is taking a very long nap on terra.

Even if they united, the difference between this and the GC is the lack of primarch, walking gods, unified space marines, resources etc.

Plus, everything you said was heresy.

What isn't

Wether we consider space marine's as a human race or not is irrelevant to the question. We get the point he is trying to get at. Is the imperium the best. I would say yes b/c if you look at it as a whole they have somethhing for everything somewhere. Its the allocation of their impressive resources that they have issues with. If they had one unifying mind (hive mind, c'tan, emperor, what have you) they would definatly rock the 40k universe.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Wether we consider space marine's as a human race or not is irrelevant to the question. We get the point he is trying to get at. Is the imperium the best. I would say yes b/c if you look at it as a whole they have somethhing for everything somewhere. Its the allocation of their impressive resources that they have issues with. If they had one unifying mind (hive mind, c'tan, emperor, what have you) they would definatly rock the 40k universe.

Well, yeah, being ridiculously inefficient is kinda the Imperium's whole schtick. That's like saying if the Eldar weren't almost all dead, they would dominate the 40k universe.

I vote for Eldar on both accounts.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Wether we consider space marine's as a human race or not is irrelevant to the question. We get the point he is trying to get at. Is the imperium the best. I would say yes b/c if you look at it as a whole they have somethhing for everything somewhere. Its the allocation of their impressive resources that they have issues with. If they had one unifying mind (hive mind, c'tan, emperor, what have you) they would definatly rock the 40k universe.

Them being unified is as likely as all Necrons waking up, or all Orks uniting, or the Eldar bringing Ynnead to life, or Chaos creating a fifth god and PWNZN'G evrything, or the Tau suddenly becoming a major faction, or the main tyranid fleet arriving in the Milky Way.

All of which would end the IoM. Cept maybe the Tau thing

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Ascalam wrote:I've seen fluff that shows that they don't consider themselves human.

To be fair, they started off human, but with all the extra organs and genetic tinkering i doubt they would be considered Homo Sapiens any more.

They are either a different breed of human - Homo Astartes, or n0t human any more (Depending in exactly where you draw the line 'human')

The last point I'd like to expand on. Where do you draw the line?

@ iproxtaco

Stealers reproduce by infecting other creastures.

Stealer hybrids have just as much claim to humanity as Astartes do, perhaps more, as they are the result of actual breeding between 2 humans, one of whom has has their dna altered. Purestrain stealers are born from hybrid parents that are almost completely human (barrign the fact that the child they have will be a purestrain stealer).

Stealer hybrids are quite different. For one there's an actual reproductive process to create them, the exchange of genes to form a new organism. I'd agree that they're an entirely new species for this fact alone.

Astartes are modified post birth with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens

Stealer Hybrids are modified from conception with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens.

The extra organs they slap into an astartes are alien too, biologically speaking.

And therein lies the difference. Astartes are humans, with extra organs, Stealer Hybrids are entirely new organisms.

Look at it this way: Genestealers and Astartes both reproduce by taking humans, and changing them into their own species. Astartes are parasites, using humanity to bolster it's ranks.

Humans do not have two hearts.

=Homo Astartes.

Agree to disagree. There's nothing more I can say and I don't want to repeat what I've said a few times now. No reproductive process, no exchange of genes, no factors which constitute the creation of a new species, therefore Astartes are human from my point of view.

^Alright then, closing statement: Them augmenting humans IS their reproductive process.

im2randomghgh wrote:Them being unified is as likely as all Necrons waking up

This is apparently happening in the next Necron codex.

And they turn out to be nice good people?

If they all wake up, that would bad for everyone and the necrons would be curb stomped by everyone combining to beat them to death.

Asherian Command wrote:And they turn out to be nice good people?

If they all wake up, that would bad for everyone and the necrons would be curb stomped by everyone combining to beat them to death.

Well, the Necron fluff is being completely butch- I mean rewritten in the next codex, if the rumors are true.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Them being unified is as likely as all Necrons waking up

This is apparently happening in the next Necron codex.

If they all wake up there won't be sixth ed because they will have won the galaxy.

Like I said, their fluff is being completely retconned.

Brother Coa wrote:...are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?

This question regards all Humans ( Marines, Guard, Sisters, Navy, PDF... ). So, waht do you think?

Hm.

Well, the Imperial Guard are brave enough to follow Chenkov's orders to clear minefields by marching over them, and assault fortified citadels without armored support, instead of massacring their Commissars, then Chenkov, and going rogue. Though that may be indoctrinated stupidity on the part of their commander, who is apparently not only willing to, but PREFERS to waste their lives in such a fashion. Truly disgusting. Human lives may be plentiful, but there's no need to go about pissing them away by the millions like that, it's just a massive waste of good resources. Fun to watch though, as when I play Guard in Dawn of War 1, I tend to mass infantry and Sentinels, and send them immediately at the enemy as soon as they are built, just to see how many of my own casualties I can rack up. Last time I tried, I think it was around 1500. That's really neither here nor there. They're nowhere near the best that humanity has to offer, simply because there's no time to train them all. As a whole, they can be effective.

Space Marines are pretty good, regardless of whether they can or cannot be seen as human. They've got good training, good skills, very brave in the face of overwhelming odds, and they're certainly incredibly capable. There aren't a lot of them compared to humanity's numbers as a whole, but they make a massive difference when they show up with appropriate numbers. Quite capable, though they are the scalpel to the Guard's hammer, and because of their small numbers will need reinforcements to hold ground and secure larger areas. Another part in the Imperial war machine.

Sisters... I'm a bit biased, admittedly, but they seem pretty well trained, as they spend most of their free time either training for combat or seeking spiritual cleansing in the form of prayer to the Emperor. And they'd definitely need that spiritual cleansing, especially after a good, long day murdering almost helpless Guardsmen because their commander decided to be a dunce, turn heretical, and drag them along with him. Sort of a decent balance between Guard and Space Marines on an individual level. They serve another role in the Imperial war machine, though what exactly that is now that they're not with the Inquisition, I'm not entirely sure. I'll have to read their fluff again to find out what general type of targets they take out. Having them be power armored reinforcements for the Guard would be nice.

Imperial Navy, I've got no clue on, though I know they control the space navy to make it harder for traitor Guard to spread their message by having a separate chain of command. That's pretty much all I know about them.

Planetary Defence Forces, not a clue about what they do other than sit back and wait for trouble to come to their own world, and if it never does, so much the better. Still, if that's what they do, then it's a necessary job to provide a first line of defence.

Overall, humanity's pretty capable of warfare. The Dark Age of Technology really screwed them over, though, and if the Emperor were walking amongst his people in the 41st millennium, I'm sure he'd be rightfully pissed off at how far humanity has fallen. I dunno if he'd take kindly to the Sisters of Battle at all. Humanity certainly has offered up some of the finest commanders - Lord Solar Macharius is a name that comes up, though I dunno why, as I don't remember his fluff and can't be bothered to look it up - and some of the finest warriors - Space Marines certainly fit that bill as a generalized group - but there are certainly commanders and warriors from the other species that inhabit the galaxy in meaningful numbers, that are the equal of what humanity has to offer.

@Pouncey, Dark age was what made them powerful, it was when it ended that they were screwed. Dark age was when the STCs were built, and humanity was even more powerful then during the crusade due to having the men of iron, (until that backfired).

Um- i think you mena Golden age there.

The Golden age of Humanity was Humanity at it's height.

The Dark Ages (like the medieval ones) where when all this learning and high tech went to hell in a handcart.

The current age is humanity attempting to recover from this dark age (which ended with the emperor coming to power and building the IOM to recover all the lost territory and tech.

Ascalam wrote:Um- i think you mena Golden age there.

The Golden age of Humanity was Humanity at it's height.

The Dark Ages (like the medieval ones) where when all this learning and high tech went to hell in a handcart.

The current age is humanity attempting to recover from this dark age (which ended with the emperor coming to power and building the IOM to recover all the lost territory and tech.

Unfortunately, you are mistaken. They were one in the same. It was called the Golden Age becomes humanity was the most powerful faction and invented all the modern Imperial technology. It was also called the Dark age because of the Techno-Heresies of the time.

Could be.

This being GW it's entirely possible that they'd have both at the same time..

*edit*

Yup. Dark age of Technology, Golden Age of Humanity.


I think it might have once been the way i said. Doesn't look like it is any more, according to the rulebook's timeline.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Um- i think you mena Golden age there.

The Golden age of Humanity was Humanity at it's height.

The Dark Ages (like the medieval ones) where when all this learning and high tech went to hell in a handcart.

The current age is humanity attempting to recover from this dark age (which ended with the emperor coming to power and building the IOM to recover all the lost territory and tech.

Unfortunately, you are mistaken. They were one in the same. It was called the Golden Age becomes humanity was the most powerful faction and invented all the modern Imperial technology. It was also called the Dark age because of the Techno-Heresies of the time.

Let's settle this like gamers of science.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Age_of_Imperium

The previous 10,000 years - M31 to M41 - were collectively known as the Age of Imperium, during which, there was a period known as the Golden Age of Imperium in which lots of good stuff happened, and bad guys were "expunged." Then things got worse, then bad, and declining further and further until now, in the final years of M41, the Imperium is crumbling.

So basically, I was wrong. The Dark Ages of Technology - there were 2 or 3, IIRC, were all prior to the Heresy.

What I was basically referring to originally was how the Imperium's been on a steady decline since the Heresy - though I'll admit I was completely unfamiliar with the Golden Age of Imperium where things got better for a while - with knowledge and learning being reduced to ritual and indoctrination.

Ascalam wrote:They don't like to admit to feeling fear, and they don't feel it as intensely (due to conditioning) but they are capable of feeling it. Their mantra 'i shall know know fear' is irrelevant if they are truly fearless.

They tend to call their fear 'misgivings' or 'doubts' and so on.

They can be broken, though they rally almost instantly, and they can be rattled or creeped out. They are very very brave, and very hard to creep out/break, but not truly fearless (otherwise game-wise every marine unit would be Fearless, logically ).

Space Marines ARE Fearless. They NEVER break or run from battle.The rule And They Shall Know No Fear represents their insane, suicidal courage and psycho-conditioning. The reason they don't have the rule fearless is because an army with this rule on everything has a vast disadvantage to an army that can break close combat. When Marines fail a "morale check" (if it was truly about morale, Marines would always pass), it means that they are making a tactical retreat, definitely not breaking out of fear. This is why ATSKNF is paired with combat tactics. This is also why ATSKNF is one of the BEST special rules in the game. It's fearless with no drawbacks. Black Templars have army-wide fearless, because they are Space Marines that don't want to retreat in face of the enemy even when it is tactically reasonable to do so (this is a disadvantage over C:SM). THAT'S what "NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!" represents. Space Marines are the epitome of fearless soldiers. Even before they become Marines, they are the bravest humans possible. On top of this, they receive psycho-conditioning to make the immune to fear. An entire army with fearless is actually not easy to play. Breaking close combat is a huge advantage.

And I've read Fall of Damnos. In that novel, Space Marines are described as being "bred without fear", and showing courage beyond what any human could. The Marines aren't affected at all by the necron flayed ones, while the humans are gaking themselves.

Nerivant wrote:The question of species doesn't lie in the extra organs of the Astartes, but in the ability for a sperm cell from an Astates to fertilize a human egg.

If it could not, then they are a separate species.

That said, it will probably never be mentioned, ever.

Actually, the question of species is a bit more complex than that. While the classical definition of species is that one species cannot produce fertile offspring with another, the reproductive barriers are often not genetic. In fact, quite a few biologists think the term "species" has become arbitrary.

DarknessEternal wrote:Before anyone complains, Marines are not human by any stretch. They're a parasitic organism and a separate species. They do reproduce, each marine will have 2 children if they come to maturity. They just reproduce parasitically.

First of all, the marine is not a parasitic organism. The marine is a human who was augmented, not the augments themselves.

Second, if the marine implants do count as a separate organism, the relationship is not parasitic. It is mutualistic. The human gets super powers, the new organs get nutrients.

Third... Calling the marine geneseed its own organism is a bit odd.

Space Marines are designed to be finest and bravest warriors in the WH40k it's like they don't have a choice but to be otherwise

Sister of Battle/Inquisition. Well i don't even want to get started on this lot

Regular Humans on the other hand.....well depends on the morale check

You can't be brave without having a capacity for fear.

Fearless = incapable of bravery.



They wouldn't have to constantly tell themselves that 'i/they shall know no fear' unless it was a possibility they had to guard against. It would be like saying 'and the sun is on fire' otherwise. It would be self evident, and thus not necessary to mention.

They are often mentioned in the fluff as being unnerved/startled/uneasy/troubled/intimidated (usually by a Chaplain for the intimidated) etc. - All these are fear reactions.

Feeling fear and overcoming it in order to do something else is bravery. You may refuse to call it fear, but its fear nonetheless. They are mentioned continually as being brave and couragous. These are the result of overcoming fear.

I prefer my SM as heroes, not as slightly fleshier robots, thanks





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Black Knight wrote:

And I've read Fall of Damnos. In that novel, Space Marines are described as being "bred without fear", and showing courage beyond what any human could. The Marines aren't affected at all by the necron flayed ones, while the humans are gaking themselves.

Actually, it has one Marine damn near doing exactly that. The hypnoconditioning blunts the effect enough that he is just creeped out, rather than gibbering in terror, but if Marines were so self evidently immune to fear why would they bother to mention his reaction

Ascalam wrote:You can't be brave without having a capacity for fear.

Fearless = incapable of bravery.



They wouldn't have to constantly tell themselves that 'i/they shall know no fear' unless it was a possibility they had to guard against. It would be like saying 'and the sun is on fire' otherwise. It would be self evident, and thus not necessary to mention.

They are often mentioned in the fluff as being unnerved/startled/uneasy/troubled/intimidated (usually by a Chaplain for the intimidated) etc. - All these are fear reactions.

Feeling fear and overcoming it in order to do something else is bravery. You may refuse to call it fear, but its fear nonetheless. They are mentioned continually as being brave and couragous. These are the result of overcoming fear.

I prefer my SM as heroes, not as slightly fleshier robots, thanks





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Black Knight wrote:

And I've read Fall of Damnos. In that novel, Space Marines are described as being "bred without fear", and showing courage beyond what any human could. The Marines aren't affected at all by the necron flayed ones, while the humans are gaking themselves.

Actually, it has one Marine damn near doing exactly that. The hypnoconditioning blunts the effect enough that he is just creeped out, rather than gibbering in terror, but if Marines were so self evidently immune to fear why would they bother to mention his reaction

They say "And They Shall Know No Fear" because it's something to be damned proud of. Kyme mentioned Scipio's reaction to the flayed ones to illustrate that Marines are immune to fear. If Scipio didn't have psycho-conditioning, he would have been terrified. But he had it, so he just fought the flayed one. If you say that Space Marines aren't fearless, and this is represented on tabletop by them not having fearless, then why do Black Templars have fearless as an army-wide rule?

Because their codex is ancient?

Interesting note when i was browsing them on lexicanum :

During Horus' attack on the Emperor's Palace, Rogal Dorn chose Sigismund as the Emperor's Champion, and Sigismund was given the best armour and weapons. He went forward to challenge the traitorous leaders in single combat, and triumphed over all he met in battle. After the Horus Heresy, the breakdown of the Imperial Fists into Codex chapters was demanded by Roboute Guilliman. Dorn thought him a coward for not being there with the Ultramarines to help in the defence of Terra. Guilliman in his turn thought a rebel of Dorn for not adhering to the new Codex Astartes.'

How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.

The Deciever ought not to be able to make Marines feel fear, if they are immune to such things, always., but he can.


How about why the rest of the Marines don't? Fear does not always mean running screaming from something. There are gradiations that tend to get missed in this kind of discussion, as SM folk will generally say 'No Fear, never no-how ' without even thinking about it. the mantra 'and they shall know no fear' could as easily be the same as the 'no fear' affirmation used by extreme sports fans. Do they feel fear anyway? Probably.

Possibly unconnected question:

Can Marines feel awe, be unnerved or apprehensive?



Also are Marines brave and courageous? I seem to remember them always being touted as such...

id say that the most couragous are indeed humans, for without fear there is no courage. Being couragous is facing your fear, and conquoring them. Space Marines, (both kinds) orks, nids, necrons, ect are not fearful so they cant be couragous.

Sure humanity doesnt have the best equipment, nor are they the strongest, or fastest. But they use supieror tactics, which is the key to success. So not the best warriors, but they are definently the best soldiers.

Actually that's something that bugs me, as a paradox in the fluff..

Orks have no fear of death, and feel next to no pain. (ork and Necron codex as sources that come to mind, likely there are others..)

So why are they always being describes as running away in terror and bellowing in pain?

(Black Library)

Ascalam wrote:Actually that's something that bugs me, as a paradox in the fluff..

Orks have no fear of death, and feel next to no pain. (ork and Necron codex as sources that come to mind, likely there are others..)

So why are they always being describes as running away in terror and bellowing in pain?

(Black Library)

This bothers the gak out of me.

The Nightbringer apparently missed the Orks when it seeded the fear of death into the galaxy.

Why then do they run for their lives on multiple occasions? It even happens in the Ork codex, they flee before Yarrick.