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If nothing else, the Deciever can make even fearless critters curl up and cry in terror

Ascalam wrote:If nothing else, the Deciever can make even fearless critters curl up and cry in terror

From what I heard, the Ultramarines were paralysed with fear in the Nightbringer's presence in the book of the same name.

Granted, both the Deceiver and Nightbringer are kind of exceptional cases.

True..

But hey, i'll take what i can get

coolyo294 wrote:No. And Marines aren't human.

Exactly. Homo Astartes.

And that is an impossible question, they are all good at different things.

Eldar are quicker than humans, but humans are more physically more powerful.

Orks are physically more powerful than unaugmented humans, but dumb as dirt, and not as light on their feet.

Tau are shorter and weaker, but see infra-red/ultra-violet and need very little water/sleep

Tyranids...not sure there is anything humanoid enough to make a comparison, but genestealers kick ass.

Necrons...well they don't die...

Pros and cons.

im2randomghgh wrote:Eldar are quicker than humans, but humans are more physically more powerful.

When is this demonstrated?

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Eldar are quicker than humans, but humans are more physically more powerful.

When is this demonstrated?

Of all places, in the Tau codex. It said Tau were physically weaker than all the races in the galaxy, except the Eldar. Humans are stronger than Tau, whose are as strong or stronger than Eldar.

Though I suppose an Eldar could use psychic power to boost his/her strength...

Huh, got a page number?

Void__Dragon wrote:Huh, got a page number?

...this MAY take a while...

While humans in the Imperial Guard are pushed into the meat grinder every day at the whim of their commander, they are not truely the bravest individuals in the galaxy. They are filled more with fear at the consequences of disobedience than the desire to sacrifice their lives for their Imperium. Truely in the 40k setting, bravery is not what makes an individual glorious, but more often that not it is the act of a fool (despite what Mat Ward says). Humans are rather reckless in the way they wage war, and a truely cunning commander like an Eldar or Astartes will only sacrific their soldiers in the name of honour or bravery if there is no other choice or if it is all part of their plan...

At least that's the way I see it.

im2randomghgh wrote:...this MAY take a while...

If it's too much trouble don't bother, am just curious because this is the first time I've heard Eldar were generally physically not as strong as humans.

i seem to recall them being both stronger and faster.

Not sure where exactly i read it though. Perhaps Xenology?

If i run across the reference i'll quote it

After reading the OP's post....I conclude that I cannot take thise thread seriously.

Ail-Shan wrote:

Space Marines are superHUMANS's

They can't breed to produce fertile offspring. Since they aren't a species they aren't humans. They aren't even superhumans. They're a genetic experiment that starts from a human base.

Anyway, the real thing is that humans are winning because they have numbers (until some more hive fleets show up) and they're mostly defending.

Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Chaos Space Marines are also Humans ( Super Humans but still - Humans ).
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.

Tyranids hunt, they don't wage wars (imagine fighting a pride of lions that are trying to eat you).
Orks wage waaaaaaaghs, not wars.

Point is, it's all war no matter how you look at it as far as we're concerned. Looting and raiding is a war tactic, not just straight on WWI style trench warfare.

There are plenty of people in this world who can't produce viable offspring are you saying that they aren't human or like space marines do that have genetic differences that stop them from reproducing.

Also, I am pretty sure nobody has TRIED setting a space marine up with a woman. Especially since they regard humans as inferior, it would be a bit like having relations with a garden gnome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And they ARE a species-Homo Astartes.

Yes, they are a species, Homo sapiens. They're heavily altered humans, they aren't an entirely new species by our definition.

Short answer, No.
Long answer:
No, humans are too willing to betray each other for personal power even in the face of almost certain destruction, which frankly even Orks and Dark Eldar don't do.

im2randomghgh wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:No. And Marines aren't human.

Tyranids...not sure there is anything humanoid enough to make a comparison, but genestealers kick ass.

I LOL'd so hard at this. Sigged!

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, they are a species, Homo sapiens. They're heavily altered humans, they aren't an entirely new species by our definition.

No, they are Homo Astartes.

Genestealers are heavily altered humans, would you call THEM Homo Sapiens?

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, they are a species, Homo sapiens. They're heavily altered humans, they aren't an entirely new species by our definition.

No, they are Homo Astartes.

Genestealers are heavily altered humans, would you call THEM Homo Sapiens?

Well, since Genestealers aren't human then no, I'd call them Genestealers, or whatever in game scientific title the Ad-mech have given them.
Nice of you to not actually try to give any reasons as to why they're a different species.

I've never seen any fluff which outright said Space Marines aren't human anymore.

I've seen fluff that shows that they don't consider themselves human.

To be fair, they started off human, but with all the extra organs and genetic tinkering i doubt they would be considered Homo Sapiens any more.

They are either a different breed of human - Homo Astartes, or n0t human any more (Depending in exactly where you draw the line 'human')


@ iproxtaco

Stealers reproduce by infecting other creastures.

Stealer hybrids have just as much claim to humanity as Astartes do, perhaps more, as they are the result of actual breeding between 2 humans, one of whom has has their dna altered. Purestrain stealers are born from hybrid parents that are almost completely human (barrign the fact that the child they have will be a purestrain stealer).

Astartes are modified post birth with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens

Stealer Hybrids are modified from conception with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens.

The extra organs they slap into an astartes are alien too, biologically speaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*** qualifier for the pedantic or those who jump on buzzwords**

Alien does not always mean extraterrestrial. It also applies to anything added to your body that you didn't grow yourself

Ascalam wrote:I've seen fluff that shows that they don't consider themselves human.

To be fair, they started off human, but with all the extra organs and genetic tinkering i doubt they would be considered Homo Sapiens any more.

They are either a different breed of human - Homo Astartes, or n0t human any more (Depending in exactly where you draw the line 'human')

The last point I'd like to expand on. Where do you draw the line?

@ iproxtaco

Stealers reproduce by infecting other creastures.

Stealer hybrids have just as much claim to humanity as Astartes do, perhaps more, as they are the result of actual breeding between 2 humans, one of whom has has their dna altered. Purestrain stealers are born from hybrid parents that are almost completely human (barrign the fact that the child they have will be a purestrain stealer).

Stealer hybrids are quite different. For one there's an actual reproductive process to create them, the exchange of genes to form a new organism. I'd agree that they're an entirely new species for this fact alone.

Astartes are modified post birth with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens

Stealer Hybrids are modified from conception with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens.

The extra organs they slap into an astartes are alien too, biologically speaking.

And therein lies the difference. Astartes are humans, with extra organs, Stealer Hybrids are entirely new organisms.

The question of species doesn't lie in the extra organs of the Astartes, but in the ability for a sperm cell from an Astates to fertilize a human egg.

If it could not, then they are a separate species.

That said, it will probably never be mentioned, ever.

They could be rendered unable to reproduce through their implantations. It's not really a good indicator considering the creation of new species would be impossible if they were unable to continue the line after a certain point.

In the original 40K SMs were certainly not humans, they were a gengineered species grown in vats that came with all the extra organs, etc in place. The fluff has now changed to them being humans who are subject to augmentation and given additional organs, etc. IMHO they are human as they are born human and augmented, I don't know of any way that an existing organism can be altered to a new species, just changed in its outward form, etc. Consider sex change, this does not make a person the other sex genetically, they are still the sex they began just the outward organs are changed. If a person is possessed by a demon does that make them non-human or just a human with new capabilities?

@iproxtaco: If I remember correctly in The First Heretic, Argel Tal spectulates on Astartes being a different species, mentioning that the are no longer Homo Sapiens, but Homo Astartes.

Dark Scipio wrote:I didnt knew Thaddeus was an expert on this matter or decides who is human.

Since you consider that this is offical fluff, and that three other veteran Marines say that they are no longer humans (in either psysically or mentally), I think it is pretty convicing.

Symbolically, they're no longer 'human' in mind. In body, yes, they're still Homo Sapiens, with some extra organs. Or they're genetic experiments and have no species, but they haevn't created an entirely new one.

Brother Coa wrote:...are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?

This question regards all Humans ( Marines, Guard, Sisters, Navy, PDF... ). So, waht do you think?

First, Humans are a species, not a race.

Second, Nope, and Nope.

Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Marines are all braver and better warriors, and better at warfare.

Before anyone complains, Marines are not human by any stretch. They're a parasitic organism and a separate species. They do reproduce, each marine will have 2 children if they come to maturity. They just reproduce parasitically.

Not quite, in my opinion. There's no exchange of genes, and they don't go through a reproductive cycle. The Space Marine is not a parasite, they're humans, with organs that reproduce. The Progenoid gland is not alive, so cannot be a different species.