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It isn't being a traitor to your species to admit that other fictional species (which were thought of with the goal of being stronger or in some way better than humanity) are stronger or in some way better than humanity. It's just showing that GW's fluff writers did their job and filled the galaxy with potent threats. Are many of these threats cooler than humanity? That's a matter of opinion, but I say yes! And that's why fiction, and science fiction in particular, is so great. It allows us to think beyond just what's here on earth, because we all know that. It's gotten stale and boring from us living it. So writers make new stuff and new species that are better or more interesting. It's all just escapism, and I for one enjoy it.

MandalorynOranj wrote:It isn't being a traitor to your species to admit that other fictional species (which were thought of with the goal of being stronger or in some way better than humanity) are stronger or in some way better than humanity.

I didn't say that, I like aliens. The 40k would be quite boring without mysterious Necrons, friendly Tau or Eldar babes
But when some Tau fan told me: "Humans are just rock-thrown stupid monkeys that must die for the good of the galaxy" tend to get me a little nervous...
And I said befre: Imperium can't defat all it's enemies because they are to numerous. But again, they can't defeat the Imperium because it's to powerful and they are not united themselves...

Brother Coa wrote:...are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?

This question regards all Humans ( Marines, Guard, Sisters, Navy, PDF... ). So, waht do you think?

Personally I think the Eldar are the bravest. After all they are a dying race, but still spend their lives to stop incursions of chaos across the galaxy. Eventually they will be completely gone, but they still fight on.

Humans are just arrogant racists jerks who want everyone else to bow to their archaic ideas of empire and conquest. Nothing really brave about wiping clean any planet that refuses to step into line with your empire....

The finest and bravest warriors are the Chaos Space Marines many of whom have been fighting their personal wars for millennia now and live in the eye of terror, the scariest and most insane place in existence next to the immaterium itself...

Skriker


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Brother Coa wrote:[But when some Tau fan told me: "Humans are just rock-thrown stupid monkeys that must die for the good of the galaxy" tend to get me a little nervous...

What exactly is there to be nervous about?? The opponent is just roleplaying his army. More power to him. I doubt outside of the game arena he has "Down with humans!!" posters hidden under his bed or something, especially given that outside of the game arena he is also human too...

Methinks you might be a tad touchy on this subject...

Skriker

The Chaos legions. The world eaters or really any legion that worships the blood god. They are insane. Then again the emperors children/noise marines enjoy pain so they enjoy battle. Then again I don't know if I would call that bravery or just insanity but im sure they are more fearless against regular space marines or IG.

Space Marines then Eldar are probably the best warriors 1 on 1 when it comes to combat.

Though Humanity is certainly the strongest power in the galaxy at least. No faction could stand alone against the combined strength of all the various forces of the Imperium. Fortunately for the enemies of humanity, the Imperium is forced to fight a war on many fronts and is burdened by bureaucracy/logistics so that would never happen.

The Space Marines are not really humans anymore. They have been improved, altered and modified beyond the standard of human species. I will quote Dawn of War II for this matter.



And about courage and battle prowess of the Imperium:

The Imperial Guard has this stereotypy of being an army of pansies, who the commissars drive forward. In many cases, this is true. However, they are only normal men and women. And still they fight against horrors too terrible to behold. And still they win. They are very, very brave when they march into their doom knowingly and willingly. They don't mind seeing their comrades being ripped to bloody shreds by mindless alien monsters, small microscopic metal shards, weapons that destroy very tanks, atom by atom. They do this battle after battle for even decades. And still move ever onward.

Space Marines are taught everything from close combat to heavy weapons, unlike Eldar who specialize in one of the aspects of war. They can give a good match for everything the xenos throw at them. A Space Marine can, with equal ease, fight hand to hand with an Ork boy, as he can sharpshoot an eye of a monstrous creature. They know the tactics to battle every foe, from light infantry hordes to heavy tanks. They have stood for over ten millenia, and they may not be as experienced as Chaos Space Marines, but they many times win even the forces of Chaos. They are the finest warriors of humanity, and are vulnerable to no one.

Overall, I think that humans truly are the bravest warriors in 40k. If you want to consider the Marines humans (which they are not), then they are the most capable of warriors.

The finest warriors in the galaxy:




The bravest souls in the galaxy:




The most faithfull souls in the galaxy




No other faction is presented this cool

No other faction is presented this cool

It certainly helps when your race is the one writing the background, both physically and in concept (fluff is generally through the imperial perspective).

Also think of what you're arguing: The imperium has the most powerful and the bravest warriors of all, and are quite numerous. So since they have all the advantages, why are they losing?

Ail-Shan wrote:

No other faction is presented this cool

It certainly helps when your race is the one writing the background, both physically and in concept (fluff is generally through the imperial perspective).

Also think of what you're arguing: The imperium has the most powerful and the bravest warriors of all, and are quite numerous. So since they have all the advantages, why are they losing?

The Imperium is not really losing, tbh. The whole "the Imperium is losing" concept exists because wh40k is a grimdark dystopy, it has to be dark and hopeless. The truth, according to the fluff, is different.

If you consider all the fluff, (books, videogames, the movie, etc.) the Imperium always wins. Always. Besides, I think that the word of losing means that you lose very much territory in mere days. The Imperium is able to keep most of their territory through fighting, and in the Imperium's case, losing would mean losing hundreds or thousands of planets each week.

The Imperium is weaker than it used to be, yes. The Age of Apostasy was a major setback, but I think that given time, the Imperium will recover from it. And if you consider what you said yourself, the race that writes the fluff would not want itself to be destroyed, right?

The IOM is winning the battle, losing the war.

As every battle seems to be told by the IOM, and bragged up, we'll have to assume that they aren't telling anyone about the faliures beyond a terse little line once in a while, like '300 battle brothers dry-gulched by unknown eldar'

Humanity will not lose, in setting, because the timeline is static, paused at about 3 seconds to midnight. It's all over but the retcons, but they aren't ready to push 'play' yet.

That inevitable defeat is what makes the SM and IG heroic. It's much like Theoden in LOTR knowing he can't defeat the orks, but going anyway, or the 300 Spartans (and the 600 or so helots people seem to forget mentioning) at Thermopylae.

If the IOM was winning, driving back the dark on all sides, etc etc they would come across as xenophobic asshats with an attitude problem (they are anyway ) but not heroes. I like them better as heroes that genocidal murderers

coolyo294 wrote:Yes. A Chaos Space Marines, (Not human, nor do they fight for humanity) is better then an Imperial Marine because of experience and the blessings of Chaos. A CSM is braver then a Guardsmen because he has no fear. And a CSM is as devoted to his Gods as much as a Sister is devoted to the Emperor.

A common mistake:

Chaos Marines from the Heresy will be very rare, and most dont live 10k years but lost most of them due to Warp time. A large chunk of the Chaos Marine are not more than the only low-quality scum that made it, but will never reach the quality of the loyal Marines.

CSM have more fear than loyal Marines because their selfish live is all they have.

Marines devoted to the Chaos gods as Sisters to the Emperor are also rare and then mad. Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines are such, but as I said mad at best. Iron Warriors, Night Lords or others try to use the Chaos gods but are not devoted.


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Dark Scipio wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Yes. A Chaos Space Marines, (Not human, nor do they fight for humanity) is better then an Imperial Marine because of experience and the blessings of Chaos. A CSM is braver then a Guardsmen because he has no fear. And a CSM is as devoted to his Gods as much as a Sister is devoted to the Emperor.

A common mistake:

Chaos Marines from the Heresy will be very rare, and most dont live 10k years but lost most of them due to Warp time. A large chunk of the Chaos Marine are not more than the only low-quality scum that made it, but will never reach the quality of the loyal Marines.

CSM have more fear than loyal Marines because their selfish live is all they have.

Marines devoted to the Chaos gods as Sisters to the Emperor are also rare and then mad. Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines are such, but as I said mad at best. Iron Warriors, Night Lords or others try to use the Chaos gods but are not devoted.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:The Space Marines are not really humans anymore. They have been improved, altered and modified beyond the standard of human species. I will quote Dawn of War II for this matter.

Spoiler:

...

Thaddeus: Victory has it's own price.

Tarkus: Speak your mind, Thaddeus

Thaddeus: With each victory, I can feel more and more of myself slipping away.

Cyrus: Continue.

Thaddeus: In battle, it used to be a great rush, a thrill! Now more and more its became...

Tarkus: Purer.

Cyrus: Simpler.

Thaddeus: Yes... Both of those. I go to a place where my body and spirit are one; a perfect weapon honed by powers far beyond me.

Tarkus: You are leaving behind the remnants of your life before the chapter found you. A great honor, but melancholy.

Cyrus: And not without costs. You are not one of them anymore.

Thaddeus: Them... Humans... Men. No... I am not quite one of them them anymore.

...

I didnt knew Thaddeus was an expert on this matter or decides who is human.

Dark Scipio wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Yes. A Chaos Space Marines, (Not human, nor do they fight for humanity) is better then an Imperial Marine because of experience and the blessings of Chaos. A CSM is braver then a Guardsmen because he has no fear. And a CSM is as devoted to his Gods as much as a Sister is devoted to the Emperor.

A common mistake:

Chaos Marines from the Heresy will be very rare, and most dont live 10k years but lost most of them due to Warp time. A large chunk of the Chaos Marine are not more than the only low-quality scum that made it, but will never reach the quality of the loyal Marines.

Wrong. Very wrong. The majority of Chaos Marines were around at the time of the Heresy, for most, only a few hundred years have passed at the very most due to residing in the time altering dimension of the Warp. This has also strengthened them, and given them more experience, having fought for far longer than the average Loyalist.

CSM have more fear than loyal Marines because their selfish live is all they have.

Nope. Fear is not a concept a Space Marine of any sort can feel unless they've been completely corrupted or possessed, in the case of Vandred in the Night Lords series.

Marines devoted to the Chaos gods as Sisters to the Emperor are also rare and then mad. Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines are such, but as I said mad at best. Iron Warriors, Night Lords or others try to use the Chaos gods but are not devoted.

Not sure what you mean to be fair. Chaos Marines devoted to a Chaos God, or Gods are exceedingly common. Mad I agree, mad with unwavering devotion.

Spoiler:

...

Thaddeus: Victory has it's own price.

Tarkus: Speak your mind, Thaddeus

Thaddeus: With each victory, I can feel more and more of myself slipping away.

Cyrus: Continue.

Thaddeus: In battle, it used to be a great rush, a thrill! Now more and more its became...

Tarkus: Purer.

Cyrus: Simpler.

Thaddeus: Yes... Both of those. I go to a place where my body and spirit are one; a perfect weapon honed by powers far beyond me.

Tarkus: You are leaving behind the remnants of your life before the chapter found you. A great honor, but melancholy.

Cyrus: And not without costs. You are not one of them anymore.

Thaddeus: Them... Humans... Men. No... I am not quite one of them them anymore.

...

I didnt knew Thaddeus was an expert on this matter or decides who is human.

Not human anymore in the symbolic or psychological sense. Biologically they're still very much human. Altered beyond the norm, but the same basic functions remain.

Actually, if you take BL to be canon Marines DO feel fear, but their psych-conditioning allows them to master it so that they don't run away/go insane/curl up in a little ball

I know that that have an ability called 'and they shall know no fear' on the table but fluffwise it's more a mission statement than a solid fact.

FOD for example, has mariines getting the screaming heebie-jeebies due to the Necrons, but not acting on them because their psychoconditioning allows them to keep fighting while they are afraid.


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Pg 55

'At least Orks Bickered, even the alien tyranid chittered and the Traitor hordes exalted and chanted: These soulless machines just stood in abject silence. Despite Scipio's Adeptus Astartes hypno-conditioning, it was unnerving'

Pg 143

'It had decapitated Renatus and lost his facee. Now the wretched creature wanted another. Only Scipio's psych-conditioning stopped him balking in terror.'

"Unnerving" Doesn't mean he was outright scared in this context. However, even if it does there are plenty instances of Space Marines mentioning they don't fell any fear, ever.

They are constantly being mentioned as being brave.

It is impossible to be brave if you can't feel fear.

There are plently of inferences (they don't outright say 'he was afraid' ) that indicate that Marines are capable of being apprehensive.

The second quote indicates that he would be outright terrified. Being unnerved also indicates a level of fear, as you can't be unnerved without feeling fear.

True, but there are plenty of instances where Space Marines don't feel any fear, mention or think that they shouldn't feel fear, or a mortal or other marine finds it odd that they don't, in the case of the former, or do in the case of the latter. The Horus Heresy books mention it quite a lot, as does the Night Lords books. Xarl believes Cyrion can feel fear and finds it sickening. Cyrion also finds it strange that Vandred and mortals can feel fear when all his brothers are incapable of it.

And They Shall Know No Fear is a dramatization, I would consider somebody conquering fear more impressive than someone who knows one as more impressive anyway.

In 'The Dark King' (I think) Curze relishes his discovery that Astartes can indeed feel fear.

They don't like to admit to feeling fear, and they don't feel it as intensely (due to conditioning) but they are capable of feeling it. Their mantra 'i shall know know fear' is irrelevant if they are truly fearless.

They tend to call their fear 'misgivings' or 'doubts' and so on.

They can be broken, though they rally almost instantly, and they can be rattled or creeped out. They are very very brave, and very hard to creep out/break, but not truly fearless (otherwise game-wise every marine unit would be Fearless, logically ).

Then it's down to conflicting fluff and difference of opinion rather than any straight out fact.

sorry to bring back an old quote, but this bugged me.

Brother Coa wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Dark Eldar. Space Marines. Eldar. Orks. Tyranids. Chaos Space Marines. Demons.

Space Marine aldo Super-Human are still Humans. And they fight for Humanity not themselves.

Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Chaos Space Marines are also Humans ( Super Humans but still - Humans ).
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.


Tyranids, Orks are the only one who can effecievly fight Humanity. Still, Human military tactics and strategies defeat them countless times. Because of all those races - none of them exceed at warfare, they just fight - without reason, logic, strategy or ordinance.

So, you are basicly saying that there races ( Chaos Space Marines are Humans ) are better fighters than a Marine and much brave then Guardsman or fateful then Sister?
And that they are specialist in warfare more then Humans?

P.S. I am disappointed - you forgot Necrons

I wouldn't consider a Space Marine "Human", they are human as a Gorilla is to a Chimpanzee. Yes, they are both "Monkeys", but there are so many differences between them that they do not stand on the same calibur. I think the same of Astartes and Humans: There are too amny differences and augmentations in an Astartes to fairly call them "Human".

And You make it sound like the Xenos races are no threat whatsoever.

Dark Eldar are a very, very big threat ever since the new codex, the fluff really expanded Commarragh. Its not just one city, or planet. It is an impossibly huge kingdom of the Dark Eldar and all of their vassal races. To attempt to put a logical size on Commarragh is pretty much impossible. Now, I doubt it is the same size as the Imperium by any measure, the Imperium vastly outsizes it, but its probably pretty stinking big. Also, Dark Eldar can grow more Dark Eldar from tubes with their science. So their race has probably alot more numbers than their craftworld cousins. And Vect, albiet crazy, is a genius. So The Dark Eldar aren't just opporitunist Pirates: If they wanted to, they could give the IoM a run for its money. Could they seige Terra? No. However, I doubt they would play fair.

Now, the Craftworld Eldar probably win for bravest. They deal with the concept that their race is going extinct and there is nothing they can do about it. But what do they do? They perservere. They arent trying to find salvation, they are simply buying some more time. For what purpose? I don't know. But It must be a very big thing for them to continue to try and fight. And to fight on, even when there is no hope for a better future, for redemption, is the bravest thing anyone can do. So they are the bravest.

Now, you made it sound like the Tyranids are mindless beasts. They lack develpoed sentience individually, but the collective Hive mind is a cunning cunning animal. Remember, the Tyranids may have lost on Macargge, but they came *this* close to essentially wiping out the Ultramarines. They several times managed to outwith and outmanuver them. The fluff considers the Ultramarienes to be the most tacticaly brilliant SM chapter. And the Tyranids were able to outwith them several times under the Swarmlords command. The tyranids aren't stupid, and they have numbers. Remember that for every victory against the devourer, when you look at a map of where the hive fleets ravaged, there were obviously many more defeats.

The Orks are a similar story to the Nids, but with more numbers, and their latent psychic ailities make them very deadly indeed. Plus, their insane devotion to the Waaaagh! probably makes them the most faithful and devoted army.

But the finest warriors in the galaxy does belong to the IoM, and not for Space Marines. The Guard outpace the Space Marines in defense of the Imperium. In 95% of the IoM's battles, its the Guardsman on the ground taking the day. the other 5% is the Space marines in vital areas. But the Guard works with such precision for a force of trillions of soldiers that they have to be given some crdit as the finest warriors the imperium has. Considering all of the tight spots and hard places that the average Guardsman has to go through, they are all probably incredibally well trained individuals.

All of this is my own personal opinion though.

I agree with everything barring two points.
Firstly, it's Sapience, not Sentience, that Tyranids and other animals lack. The two are often mixed up but mean different things. We, humans, are Sapient. A Dog, isn't Sapient, but it's Sentient.

Secondly, the point about the Imperium's finest warriors. Unless you define 'Finest' in more detail, then there's really no argument about it. It's Space Marines. They're the most skilled, the best equipped and most tactically adept force humanity has. The Imperial Guard are at these engagement through virtues of necessity and number of both them and the Space Marines.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I would prolly say Tau were higher than Humans in Bravery.

Before Cao starts on "They haven't fought anything".

they HAVE fought Daemons (they think They killed Tzeentch)
They HAVE fought Tyranids (And won! read Shadowsun's Bio)
They HAVE fought Orkz (And won! Once again, see our good Friend O'Shassera's Bio. Page 46 of the Tau Empire Codex)
They HAVE fought Necrons (Alongside Ultramarines)

The only time they ever turned tail (that I remember, may be wrong on this since I haven't read much fluff in a while) Is when Captain Ventris threatened to blow up Pavonis if they didn't leave.

And on the most skilled: Eldar say hi!

IMO, for the Most brave, I'd prolly say Eldar on Both accounts, but Humans aren't high up there. Remember, for all 1,000,000 Space marines and all however many Sisters of Battle, there are trillions of Guardsmen. The ratio of Space marines to Guardsman is prolly 1:1,000,000 a tleast

As both an imperium and cron player i resent all of these statements. As tau your leadership is???????
Grey knights know no fear and crons are leadership 10.
Might i also remind you about how we (crons) saved your sorry tails from a tyranid invasion (of course then we did start eating you in their place........)
In fact I do remember a certain shoot them and run away tactic that the Tau seem to favor every time my knights engage them.

iproxtaco wrote:I agree with everything barring two points.
Firstly, it's Sapience, not Sentience, that Tyranids and other animals lack. The two are often mixed up but mean different things. We, humans, are Sapient. A Dog, isn't Sapient, but it's Sentient.

Secondly, the point about the Imperium's finest warriors. Unless you define 'Finest' in more detail, then there's really no argument about it. It's Space Marines. They're the most skilled, the best equipped and most tactically adept force humanity has. The Imperial Guard are at these engagement through virtues of necessity and number of both them and the Space Marines.

On Point One: Oops, looks like I have been using the word "Sentient" wrong my whole life... *awkwardly shuffles away*

On Point Two: True, and on a one to one scale the Space marines are the "finest" warriors in the galaxy, they could pommel the face in of almost any other race. But as an organizational whole, The Space Marines work as more of like super-man: for all of Supermans abilities, he is only one guy. And unlike Superman, you don't need kryptonite to kill a SM, you just need a well placed Bullet. So as a whole organization, I would put more trust in the Guard. So it depends I guess on if we are talking about "Finest warriors" as a "hombre y hombre" thing, or as an entire race thing.

agreed

The point about the Eldar is a very good one, the risk they take by exposing themselves to danger is immense and has a whole dimension beyond that which is true of other races. All races risk fear, pain and death. Only the Eldar risk further horror afterwards. The fluff implies IIRC that Eldar souls are self-aware following death and feel the pain, etc of being taken by Slaanesh. This makes it even more remarkable that they field units of guardians. Think about it, they are dying out and risk everything by fighting, so what do they do send in their precious civilians to fight and in the case of guardians, usually die. You can understand why orks flood forwards or IG are thrown away or why the Hive Mind throws waves of gaunts at the enemy but why on earth do the Eldar send their rare and precious civilians on suicide missions with weak armour and mediocre weapons?

Dark Eldar presumably have the same issue in that their souls too are forfeit if they die. They show no signs of worshipping chaos, they are hedonists and selfish not cultists. The new fluff, though, certainly changes their dynamics by talking up how many there are and implying that they are far more numerous than anyone thought in their wildest dreams!

Dark Eldar can be regenerated from a remnant body part, and they don't have the population problem the Craftworlders do, with the new codex fluff, as Commoragh is massively larger than previously hinted.

The Dark eldar use artificial gestation chambers and recloning from body fragments to keep their numbers up.

I rather like the dark fey vibe the DE have now

humans best quality is that they aren't extremists in terms of abilities, they have a balanced set of skills. Humans are both skillful warriors, but also numerous; they have the ability be both zealots and logical tacticians.

1.) A thread trolling against Xenos? Check!
2.) Thread started by Brother Coa? Check!
Now expecting a post like:
"But I just wanted a neutral discussion on how much non-humans suck, that's not trolling just being curious!"

Not every Dark Eldar gets to have a Haemonculi regrow their body from a hand.

Also, on the subject of Marines feeling fear, sure, they think and boast they feel no fear, but when put into practice that proves false.