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Ascalam wrote:You can't be brave without having a capacity for fear.

Fearless = incapable of bravery.



They wouldn't have to constantly tell themselves that 'i/they shall know no fear' unless it was a possibility they had to guard against. It would be like saying 'and the sun is on fire' otherwise. It would be self evident, and thus not necessary to mention.

They are often mentioned in the fluff as being unnerved/startled/uneasy/troubled/intimidated (usually by a Chaplain for the intimidated) etc. - All these are fear reactions.

Feeling fear and overcoming it in order to do something else is bravery. You may refuse to call it fear, but its fear nonetheless. They are mentioned continually as being brave and couragous. These are the result of overcoming fear.

I prefer my SM as heroes, not as slightly fleshier robots, thanks





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Black Knight wrote:

And I've read Fall of Damnos. In that novel, Space Marines are described as being "bred without fear", and showing courage beyond what any human could. The Marines aren't affected at all by the necron flayed ones, while the humans are gaking themselves.

Actually, it has one Marine damn near doing exactly that. The hypnoconditioning blunts the effect enough that he is just creeped out, rather than gibbering in terror, but if Marines were so self evidently immune to fear why would they bother to mention his reaction

Well as to the "and they shall know no fear" thing, I think the reason they say it is because the Emperor himself, object of their veneration, said that, and it fills them with martial pride.

As for the Fearless=not brave thing, it is not necessarily that black and white. They are still conscious of the risk of dying, but perform their duty anyways. They simply don't care. But to be cognizant of the risks and do it anyways, is bravery.

yes the Imperium has the bravest fighters. because the Imperium has one thing that most other races don't, a reason to fight. The Imperium no longer fights to conquer(at least not like they use to), it fights to control what they have left and controlling what they have left means if they don't win than they die.

Tau are a bunch of pussies, same goes for Eldar and Dark Eldar

Orks just fight for fun, they don't give a gak

Tyranids are just fighting to devour everything in the universe

And Chaos is like the middle age crusades, they just kill everything that doesn't worship their god, including other legions that worship the other gods.

Kazerkinelite wrote:yes the Imperium has the bravest fighters. because the Imperium has one thing that most other races don't, a reason to fight. The Imperium no longer fights to conquer(at least not like they use to), it fights to control what they have left and controlling what they have left means if they don't win than they die.

Tau are a bunch of pussies, same goes for Eldar and Dark Eldar

Orks just fight for fun, they don't give a gak

Tyranids are just fighting to devour everything in the universe

And Chaos is like the middle age crusades, they just kill everything that doesn't worship their god, including other legions that worship the other gods.

Hmm what quote supports this OH YEAH!

Your foe is well equipped, well-trained, battle-hardened. He believes his gods are on his side. Let him believe what he will. We have the tanks on ours.
— Colonel Joachim Pfeiff, Krieg 14th Armoured Regiment +++

We hold them here or we fight them on the hallowed ground of Terra itself. I for one would rather see a million human lives lost here than allow a single Ork to set foot on Earth.
— General Pavlov, Armageddon Command Guard +++

Attention all vessels, this is Lord Admiral Rath. It is clear to me that we cannot win this fight by utilising conventional weapons of warfare. I order you all to disengage and withdraw. The Dominus Astra shall be the fiery sword of retribution that ends this war. I repeat, disengage and pull away. The Emperor's blessing be upon you!
+++ Final transmission of Lord Admiral Zaccarius Rath +++

What is the strongest weapon of mankind? The god-machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus? No! The Astartes Legions? No! The tank? The lasgun? The fist? Not at all! Courage and courage alone stands above them all!
— Lord Commander Solar Macharius +++

To prove my point the Imperium has courage and courage alone saves humanity.

Robot Skeletons > Courage.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Robot Skeletons > Courage.

Tell that to the Astral Knights that attacked with courage and their chapter to fight against the world engine where they succeeded and stopped the World engine in its tracks.

I would, but ..hmmm.. theyre all dead

And who says that was the only World Engine?

Also remember that the stories are all written by the IOM, and they seem prone to editing out all but a few losses to balance their wins

That said, it was awesomely couragous. Not necessariy bright, but hey...

Ascalam wrote:I would, but ..hmmm.. theyre all dead

And who says that was the only World Engine?

Also remember that the stories are all written by the IOM, and they seem prone to editing out all but a few losses to balance their wins

That said, it was awesomely couragous. Not necessariy bright, but hey...

It worked plus it was filled up by a chapter that was already made to replace a chapter.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Nightbringer apparently missed the Orks when it seeded the fear of death into the galaxy.

I wouldn't take that passage literally. It makes pretty little sense to me, and I always assumed that it was supposed to be metaphorical (that said, I never understood how his Necrodermis of all things could taint Khaine with the Aspect of the Destroyer when I thought he was supposed to be a Warp God anyway).

Kazerkinelite wrote:And Chaos is like the middle age crusades, they just kill everything that doesn't worship their god, including other legions that worship the other gods.

That's really not what happened during the Crusades (in the Middle East, at least).


On-topic; it's pretty much impossible to compare levels of bravery between those who are willing to knowingly sacrifice their lives for their goal. The Tau, Eldar and Imperials who fight for others knowing that they will die are all equally brave, unless you care to factor in the fear of what lies beyond (the Eldar having a chance of torture or tranquility in the Infinity Matrix while the Imperials believe that they will join the Emperor upon death, and I've no idea as to the Tau). Even the followers of Chaos who aren' fighting for the chance of immortality could be considered brave. Tyranids, Necrons and Orks don't really come into it, and the Dark Eldar are so arrogant, as well as having the ability to essentially be resurrected, that I don't think they feel the same level of fear (and so can't bravely overcome that fear).

We're talking about fluff geeks here.

We take EVERYTHHING literally

Actually in the Crusades both sides ended up bumping off a fair few folk that followed the same god also.. It was a huge fundamentalist clusterfeth...

Kazerkinelite wrote:yes the Imperium has the bravest fighters. because the Imperium has one thing that most other races don't, a reason to fight. The Imperium no longer fights to conquer(at least not like they use to), it fights to control what they have left and controlling what they have left means if they don't win than they die.

Tau are a bunch of pussies, same goes for Eldar and Dark Eldar

Orks just fight for fun, they don't give a gak

Tyranids are just fighting to devour everything in the universe

And Chaos is like the middle age crusades, they just kill everything that doesn't worship their god, including other legions that worship the other gods.

They ALL have reasons to fight.

The Tau fight because they KNOW they will face retribution from the Imperium, and they know they need to grow stronger to resist the Imperium's fleets while they're distracted by the Tyranids.

The Eldar fight for survival every bit as much as Humans do, they are basically the IoM in a more advanced state of decay.

The Dark Eldar raid to save their souls from Slaanesh, who will torture them until the end of time.

Ork are more fierce and single-minded then the IoM could ever be. No one gets as intense about combat as they do except maybe berserkers.

Tyranids are compelled by the Hive Mind with more force then courage and dogma could ever do.

And chaos units are often created with the single purpose of ending life, unlike humans.

The IG/SoB/SM are very fierce, but do not underestimate the other races of the galaxy.

Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats. Specifically, Leadership.
Orks- 6,7
Space Marines- 8
Necrons- 10

I think it's obvious who the "bravest" is.

Also, BloodAngelsxNecrons4eva.

Tabletop stats =/= fluff.

Coolyo294 wrote:Tabletop stats =/= fluff.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.

You need to get off my back, dude.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats. Specifically, Leadership.
Orks- 6,7
Space Marines- 8
Necrons- 10

I think it's obvious who the "bravest" is.

Also, BloodAngelsxNecrons4eva.

Well Space Marines don't get scared, them having Ld 8 instead of 10/fearless is to represent "tactical withdrawls"

Also, not being able to pull out of combat with orks would be quite bad for them.

im2randomghgh wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats. Specifically, Leadership.
Orks- 6,7
Space Marines- 8
Necrons- 10

I think it's obvious who the "bravest" is.

Also, BloodAngelsxNecrons4eva.

Well Space Marines don't get scared, them having Ld 8 instead of 10/fearless is to represent "tactical withdrawls"

Also, not being able to pull out of combat with orks would be quite bad for them.

I always forget about ATSKNF. >.>

Ascalam wrote:It was a huge fundamentalist clusterfeth...

Terrible, but justified, and not wholly down to "they're of another religion".

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Tabletop stats =/= fluff.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.

You need to get off my back, dude.

not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.

Asherian Command wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Tabletop stats =/= fluff.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.

You need to get off my back, dude.

not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.

EVERYONE IS FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL!!!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Tabletop stats =/= fluff.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.

You need to get off my back, dude.

not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.

EVERYONE IS FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL!!!

Well, 'cept 'crons. They're fighting for desurvival(?). At least, that's how it is until the new codex, where they're fluff is going to be so whacked, they undoubtedly will win the award for most confusing race.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Tabletop stats =/= fluff.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.

You need to get off my back, dude.

not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.

EVERYONE IS FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL!!!

In all seriousness, regular people fighting daemons, xenos creatures and massive creatures of death they stand fight that is bravery right there, they are not indoctrinated they are humans that are militia men and they fight for humanity knowing they can keep fighting and they will be victorious or die trying.

Ascalam wrote:How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.

Guilliman is not a marine; he is a primarch raised in completely different conditions with no special psychological conditioning. Of course, I'd expect a primarch to be braver than the average marine...

Molten Butter wrote:

Ascalam wrote:How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.

Guilliman is not a marine; he is a primarch raised in completely different conditions with no special psychological conditioning. Of course, I'd expect a primarch to be braver than the average marine...

plus he was a coward for not putting down what he was doing and not rushing straight to the imperial palace like the other legions did.

Asherian Command wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:

Ascalam wrote:How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.

Guilliman is not a marine; he is a primarch raised in completely different conditions with no special psychological conditioning. Of course, I'd expect a primarch to be braver than the average marine...

plus he was a coward for not putting down what he was doing and not rushing straight to the imperial palace like the other legions did.

Fluff fail.
From Lexicanum:

Before Horus declared his treachery against the Emperor, he had ordered the Ultramarines Legion to go to the Veridan System in Segmentum Tempestus far to the galactic south, claiming that the system was under attack by an Ork invasion force from the Ghaslakh Empire. Roboute Guilliman commanded his troops to depart at once and set course for Ultramar, so he could meet up with more of his forces and obtain supplies. Ultramar was close enough for an assault against Veridan, so Roboute ordered his Legion to assemble in the Calth System.
As Roboute and his fleets arrived at Calth, they knew something was wrong, because none of their Astropaths could get messages through the Warp and the storms were interfering with the navigation of their ships; they were blocked from the rest of the Imperium. It was at this moment that the traitor forces of the Word Bearers Legion attacked, rendering the Ultramarines unable to participate in much of the Battle for Terra.

Ascalam wrote:Because their codex is ancient?

Interesting note when i was browsing them on lexicanum :

How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.

The Deciever ought not to be able to make Marines feel fear, if they are immune to such things, always., but he can.

Because it's an insult...? That's like asking why you would call a person stupid, even if they're intelligent. What's this fluff about the deceiver anyway?

Black Knight wrote:Because it's an insult...? That's like asking why you would call a person stupid, even if they're intelligent. What's this fluff about the deceiver anyway?

One of the Star Gods, C'tan, of the Necrons.

The Nightbringer was able to paralyze Marines in fear with its presence, as well.

But they are kind of really exceptional cases.

Yes, humans are great fighters. Each different army of the IoM is very good at what they do, put them together you have a cohesive fighting force capable of smashing aside any other force in the galaxy. (Notice this isn't challenging the warp, it's limited to the galaxy.)

Asherian Command wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Tabletop stats =/= fluff.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.

You need to get off my back, dude.

not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.

By that logic, Eldar are the bravest race in 40k. They have so much more on the line than humans every time they step onto the battlefield: they risk their souls being lost and tortured forever, not to mention the fact that their race is dying and every lost Eldar life is a huge blow to the strength of their species as a whole.

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Tabletop stats =/= fluff.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.

You need to get off my back, dude.

not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.

By that logic, Eldar are the bravest race in 40k. They have so much more on the line than humans every time they step onto the battlefield: they risk their souls being lost and tortured forever, not to mention the fact that their race is dying and every lost Eldar life is a huge blow to the strength of their species as a whole.

The eldar species xenos are vile cowards. They have no understanding of the greatest human virtue, courage. Their arrogance is also one of their greatest sins. They, like all xenos must be exterminated.

The bravest species is Tau. For in a grimdark setting, weeaboos should not have a home. Yet they do. And I am proud to join in, though I hate the weeaboos as well.

Black Knight wrote:The eldar species xenos are vile cowards. They have no understanding of the greatest human virtue, courage. Their arrogance is also one of their greatest sins. They, like all xenos must be exterminated.

Not sure if serious...?

Humans are cowardly in 40k, hence the existence of Commissars. The average human is not as brave as an Eldar.

Hell, the Eldar race are arguably the bravest race in the galaxy, capable of feeling fear, having so much more to lose than a human, and having lost so much already. But they still fight.

Humans are ignorant, idiotic vermin, their only greater purpose in life is to be harvested, for the master. That will be made very apparent soon enough.