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Bow down and weep, as you witness the glory of my search-fu.

Farseer Marcus wrote:I think this because of the following excerpts/info from codexes Necrons & tyranids
"As I looked into it's dead black eyes, I saw the terrible sentience it had in place of a soul. Behind that was the steel will of it's leader. Further still I could feel it's primogenitor coldly assessing me from the void. And looking back from the deepest resesses of the alien's mind I preceived what I can describe as an immortal hunger." Ultramarines Chief Librarian Tigurius, codex Tyranids 5th edition pg 13. And seeing as ALL the c'tan are always hungry (for souls/energy, not flesh I know, but what if the tyranids are acting as mouths for the outsider in this case. By the tyranids eating the flesh but their creator, the outsider getting the soul at the same time through the tyranids, it's creations eating the flesh of their victims) but also have the power of creation at their fingertips and immortality (the bit about the c'tan having the power of creation is in codex necrons pg 28) so what if in the outsider's exile, it created the tyranids. And because of the c'tan's general soulessness the tyranids have no soul, just like their creator and also just like their creator are always hungry, so it seems pretty logical that the tyranids would be the creation of 1 of the C'tan due to these simlarities, and the C'tan they would have to belong to would be the Outsider, because he was exiled from the universe because of his insanity, and the tyranids come from beyond the universe. Not to also mention that the tyranids also avoided conflict with the necrons at Solemnace (codex Tyranids pg 10-11) and again, instances of tyranids sparing worlds (pg11 paragrph 4 codex necrons) So what if it's actually the outsider not wanting to alert the other C'tan that that their insane brother is sending his minions back into the galaxy if in fact the tyranids are in fact the outsider's servants by the hive mind being the collective consicousness of the outsider. This is just how it looks to me, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

Seems to make enough sense, but I'm not completely sold on the idea.

I submit you are indeed the master of search-fu.

Thanks, so the Hive mind, is the lost C'tan that is cool.

I hope it is not overwritten buy something stupid that Mr Ward does in the new Crons dex.

Give ward some slack, he's not THAT bad.

bombboy1252 wrote:Give ward some slack, he's not THAT bad.

So you don't like him because he made the fluff for the most elite fighting force the imperium has. and he just so happened to make fluff for the best of said most elite army. He is the best grey knight, grey knights are better in combat than a normal marine, AND have a significant advantage when fighting chaos. So I would think it would be bad fluff writing if he had the best of the best daemon killers, dying in the warp.

edit: 666 posts

bombboy1252 wrote:...AND have a significant advantage when fighting chaos...

Performing Khorne-worship with the blood of Adeptus Sororitas will do that easily. 'Cause you know, Khorne hates Psykers and such, so when you write blood runes on your armor, you get extraheretical protection!

It should be noted that the Knights are not the only faction that Ward raped. Yes, Draigo is the largest black mark of them all, but he has enforced his own personal opinions on other groups. Spiritual Liege, Deep Striking Land Raiders&Golden Nipple suits... On the note of those Blood Angels, he used that codex as a ploy to make the novel Chapter's Due non-canon. Chapter's Due made the Ultramarines out to be somewhat human, and still requiring the aide of the Imperium. Ward disagreed, and wrote the the demon M'kar, who lead the assault in Chapter's Due, was actually on the other side of the galaxy attempting to corrupt Mephiston.

He also made mono-boob daemonettes. That is more than enough for me to dislike him.

As to not completely derail the thread... @Coolyo294's post:

As a Tyranid player, I have to disagree with that assessment of the Hive Mind. The synpase system works like a hand going in to a puppet. Hive Mind, the original hand, enters the Norn Queen. That gloved hand enters the Hive Tyrants, which in turn enters the Warriors, at last ending with the Gaunts. As with wearing multiple layers of gloves, you would need to have farther layers have some control over their decisions, otherwise everything would end up moving too stiffly. Tyrants are confirmed as having personalities(You would probably find this somewhere in regard to the Swarmlord). A Hive Tyrant's mind is imprinted on to the Hive Mind, so that it may re-enter battle anywhere, at any point in the galaxy. Like how you might send the Imperial Fists to defend, while you send the Raven Guard to perform 'covert' missions, so too does the Hive Mind mess with what Hive Tyrant mind is deployed where(IIRC, a Tyrant body is mindless until it has one imprint, or otherwise activated, by the Hive Mind. A 'mind' can also leave a Tyrant body, allowing for two different Tyrants to switch spots. With Tyranid wargear being as interchangeable as it is, it is an easy transition. Though, the Swarmlord has a specific body that the 'Mind makes for it.)

So, we've established that the Hive Mind has some tactical and prescient ability, not just instinctual hunger. The vast Psychic awesomeness of the Hive Mind can probe what it will be facing on a planet before it has even arrived in-system. Biomass available on planet, entrenchment of defenders, etc. etc.. Genestealer infestations are wonderful at this. They act as a median between the language of the 'Mind and the language of humans. 'Stealers are also written down in lore as being the summoning force of Hive Fleets, hence the rush to eliminate them from a planet's government once found. They send out a psychic signal which the appropriate Hive Fleet latches on to, and pushes itself off one world toward the new one. This leaves two real requirements for a Tyranid invasion of a system:
1)Genestealer presence
2)Biomass lost in assault Vs. Biomass gained in victory.
The Hive Mind, in its awesomeness, knows that if it assaults a Tomb World, it will lose all Biomass in assault, and regain none. However, this is them sparing worlds, not entire systems. I have little doubt that the Necrons have some way of knowing when there is life in the system, or even sub-sector of a Tomb World. Would it not make sense for the 'Nids to avoid the entire range of their detection, if they were commanded by the Outsider? Blegh, don't take my word for fact. Its all opinions, in the end.

Iricillian wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:...AND have a significant advantage when fighting chaos...

Performing Khorne-worship with the blood of Adeptus Sororitas will do that easily. 'Cause you know, Khorne hates Psykers and such, so when you write blood runes on your armor, you get extraheretical protection!

It should be noted that the Knights are not the only faction that Ward raped. Yes, Draigo is the largest black mark of them all, but he has enforced his own personal opinions on other groups. Spiritual Liege, Deep Striking Land Raiders&Golden Nipple suits... On the note of those Blood Angels, he used that codex as a ploy to make the novel Chapter's Due non-canon. Chapter's Due made the Ultramarines out to be somewhat human, and still requiring the aide of the Imperium. Ward disagreed, and wrote the the demon M'kar, who lead the assault in Chapter's Due, was actually on the other side of the galaxy attempting to corrupt Mephiston.

He also made mono-boob daemonettes. That is more than enough for me to dislike him.

As to not completely derail the thread... @Coolyo294's post:

As a Tyranid player, I have to disagree with that assessment of the Hive Mind. The synpase system works like a hand going in to a puppet. Hive Mind, the original hand, enters the Norn Queen. That gloved hand enters the Hive Tyrants, which in turn enters the Warriors, at last ending with the Gaunts. As with wearing multiple layers of gloves, you would need to have farther layers have some control over their decisions, otherwise everything would end up moving too stiffly. Tyrants are confirmed as having personalities(You would probably find this somewhere in regard to the Swarmlord). A Hive Tyrant's mind is imprinted on to the Hive Mind, so that it may re-enter battle anywhere, at any point in the galaxy. Like how you might send the Imperial Fists to defend, while you send the Raven Guard to perform 'covert' missions, so too does the Hive Mind mess with what Hive Tyrant mind is deployed where(IIRC, a Tyrant body is mindless until it has one imprint, or otherwise activated, by the Hive Mind. A 'mind' can also leave a Tyrant body, allowing for two different Tyrants to switch spots. With Tyranid wargear being as interchangeable as it is, it is an easy transition. Though, the Swarmlord has a specific body that the 'Mind makes for it.)

So, we've established that the Hive Mind has some tactical and prescient ability, not just instinctual hunger. The vast Psychic awesomeness of the Hive Mind can probe what it will be facing on a planet before it has even arrived in-system. Biomass available on planet, entrenchment of defenders, etc. etc.. Genestealer infestations are wonderful at this. They act as a median between the language of the 'Mind and the language of humans. 'Stealers are also written down in lore as being the summoning force of Hive Fleets, hence the rush to eliminate them from a planet's government once found. They send out a psychic signal which the appropriate Hive Fleet latches on to, and pushes itself off one world toward the new one. This leaves two real requirements for a Tyranid invasion of a system:
1)Genestealer presence
2)Biomass lost in assault Vs. Biomass gained in victory.
The Hive Mind, in its awesomeness, knows that if it assaults a Tomb World, it will lose all Biomass in assault, and regain none. However, this is them sparing worlds, not entire systems. I have little doubt that the Necrons have some way of knowing when there is life in the system, or even sub-sector of a Tomb World. Would it not make sense for the 'Nids to avoid the entire range of their detection, if they were commanded by the Outsider? Blegh, don't take my word for fact. Its all opinions, in the end.

I believe after all the fluuf I have absorbed, that a C'tan would be a consciousness capeable of the multi layered glove of the hive mind, and infact alot of what you said in my interpretation, strengthens the agument for C'tan involvment.
An interesting thought is biomass absorbsion. Whilst being precieved as the main directive of the fleet may be just what the C'tan ordered when looking for souls to feed apon, as stated above.

meh, I like the tyranid fluff and necron fluff to be similar, but not that similar....tyranids kill all living things to survive, necrons kill all living things for the purpose of killing all living things. I can see how people can think "The hivemind is a C'tan or a C'tans puppet" but I think that idea would hurt the overall fluff of 40k. Who want's two armies fighting for the same gods?

(excluding imperium armies)

bombboy1252 wrote:meh, I like the tyranid fluff and necron fluff to be similar, but not that similar....tyranids kill all living things to survive, necrons kill all living things for the purpose of killing all living things. I can see how people can think "The hivemind is a C'tan or a C'tans puppet" but I think that idea would hurt the overall fluff of 40k. Who want's two armies fighting for the same gods?

(excluding imperium armies)

Aggreed.

That is a good point, having two armies that do that same thing is not as cool, I never thought of it that way.