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To be honest I agree with him on almost all points.

I think his points are fine, he just failed to discuss a number of other things that makes his conclusion a bit off.

He states a number of cc options are overcosted, but doesn't mention wraiths at all. They are quite good, its just odd they are entirely ignored.

He complains about a number of overtly expensive synergies but ignores some really cheap ones.

He barely touches on scarabs or the turn 1 assault shenanigans.

I'm not even saying he is wrong per se, just seemed too early and too flawed to make such a strong conclusion.

@Darth
We will play switched roles, and we will play with the other guy going first, and with the other guy reserving, going second and see how it plays out.

@rummymouth
As dkellyj said, you need to stretch those little buggers out for all they're worth. You need a ton of Scarab bases to make the list work.

@Aldarionn
We will try it getting seized on, and we have tried it against an IG list with Executioner. The IG player lured the Scarabs into the open and wiped them out in one volley. The Crons still one the game though, as the Spider got into the IG lines and wiped them. It was a much closer battle though.

@Winterman
I disagree with Nick on that one. We thought the book sucked at first glace too, but after actually playing it, we have all totally changed our opinions. We think it is a great book now that like DE, can easily be played badly, but with skill, can win games handily.

@Inquisitor_Dunn
Thanks! Glad you like the reps. We think IG lists will have to have some plan for Scarabs as otherwise, they get run over by them. And we will have a sisters report. We have an expert level Sisters player here who does really well with them, and we will get him (PaintedPotato) to give us a game on video.

@etrnm(54)
We're going to be playing out that exact match-up next week! Jy2 vs. Me with the Scarab farm list to see if the Crons can find a way to battle through that match-up. I am confident that the Crons can win. The main thing that you need to think about in bad match-ups like that is not a straight head to head confrontation, but how to think laterally and use your units to win in other ways if you can't out-fight them. Never engage in a fight you can't win if you can avoid it. We'll see how it goes, Jy2 is a very good player.

Mech IGs need to field atleast one hellhound and executioner to stand against scarab swarm.

Good god. I run a similar setup...maybe I should reroll Chaos or SM.

*stares at his Guardsmen in horror*

Probably the most brilliant call of all was Zand with scarab farm. My fear with running them is that they would get bogged down running against units with good saves. This way you can Hit and Run them all day long and give them the added boost from furious charge. Great call man GREAT call.

Sorry, not to keep this thread off topic, but Aldarionn, are you really seeing a lot of FNP in draigowings now?

I always find myself hesitant to play the apothecary, when points are so precious...

Meanwhile, scarabs will knock some of those armor saves off paladins, won't they?

What I'm anxious to see is someone putting together a good Necron Wraithwing list. I can't get the points to line up well. Though I am obsessed with the Varguard and wish he could select a command barge.

Clay Williams wrote:Probably the most brilliant call of all was Zand with scarab farm. My fear with running them is that they would get bogged down running against units with good saves. This way you can Hit and Run them all day long and give them the added boost from furious charge. Great call man GREAT call.

With Initiative 2, don't expect the scarabs to hit and run that often.

To be honest you compare the scarab melee'ing draigo paladins. Why not just ignore them run around and kill everything else than just focus fire. Yes they get 2+/FNP/2 Wounds, but just like terminator heavy lists you can tarpit them if you must or just ignore them if you can.

junk wrote:Sorry, not to keep this thread off topic, but Aldarionn, are you really seeing a lot of FNP in draigowings now?

I always find myself hesitant to play the apothecary, when points are so precious...

Meanwhile, scarabs will knock some of those armor saves off paladins, won't they?

What I'm anxious to see is someone putting together a good Necron Wraithwing list. I can't get the points to line up well. Though I am obsessed with the Varguard and wish he could select a command barge.

I don't see the Apothecary that often but to be honest the Paladins don't need it, especially against Scarabs. If you have truly massive number of Scarabs, say 50 bases, and you charge 10 diversified Paladins and Draigo.......

Draigo - 275
10 Paladins - 645
-Brotherhood Banner
-Psycannon w/ Sword
-Psycannon w/ Hammer
-Psycannon w/ MC Sword
-MC Psycannon w/ Sword
-Sword
-MC Sword
-Halberd
-MC Halberd
-Hammer

.....the numbers will be roughly as follows (I may have calculated Master Crafting wrong so if someone wants to check the numbers feel free):

Draigo casts Hammerhand.
2x Halberds make 6 attacks, hitting on 3's with one reroll and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 3.83 wounds. The unit activates their Force Weapons and kills 3.83 scarab bases.
Draigo makes 5 attacks hitting on 3's with one reroll and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 3.27 wounds. Draigo activates his Force Weapon and kills 2.71 scarab bases.
5 Swords make 15 attacks, hitting on 3's with two rerolls and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 9.32 wounds which insta-kill 9.32 scarab bases.
1 Brotherhood Banner makes 3 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 1.1 unsaved wounds.

That's 17.47 dead Scarab bases. The remaining 32.53 Scarab bases make 162.65 attacks, hitting on 5's and wounding on 5's and the Paladins have a 2+ save. That's roughly 2.95 unsaved wounds on different targets. 3 of the Paladins with Swords lose their 2+ but maintain a 4++ in combat.

2 Hammers make 6 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 3.33 dead scarab bases.

All told the Scarabs have lost 20.8 bases and lost combat by 59.45. They lose another 13.22 bases from Fearless wounds, bringing their total number down to 15.98 bases, which are wiped out in the following Assault phase before the Scarabs ever get to attack. So 3 Paladins are down a wound and lack an armor save, and all told 920 points of Draigo and Paladins they slew 750 points of scarabs in 2 rounds of combat, and made 450 points worth of Canoptek Spyders useless in the process. They are barely even diminished and the entire Necron gimmick is gone.

Draigo Wing will absolutely DEMOLISH Scarab Farm if the Scarabs make any attempt to engage the Paladins, and they will do it without having an Apothecary. Draigos unit can also withstand a huge amount of ranged firepower while putting out 16 Psycannon shots at 24". Necrons can hold them up with Wraiths and a Destroyer Lord if they do it right, but even then it's just a delay until the Paladins finish them off. Their only hope is to either ignore the Death Star and kill the rest of the list, or kill the Death Star with a truly absurd amount of firepower. Death Rays can do it, Heavy Destroyers can do it, C'Tan can suicide and cause a large number of wounds with their explosions, but to be honest Draigo-Win has a huge advantage that I think the Necrons will have a difficult time overcoming. I'm very interested to see how Reece's game goes against Jy2.

FOTM lists that will be redundant within a few tournaments.

Aldarionn wrote:

junk wrote:Sorry, not to keep this thread off topic, but Aldarionn, are you really seeing a lot of FNP in draigowings now?

I always find myself hesitant to play the apothecary, when points are so precious...

Meanwhile, scarabs will knock some of those armor saves off paladins, won't they?

What I'm anxious to see is someone putting together a good Necron Wraithwing list. I can't get the points to line up well. Though I am obsessed with the Varguard and wish he could select a command barge.

I don't see the Apothecary that often but to be honest the Paladins don't need it, especially against Scarabs. If you have truly massive number of Scarabs, say 50 bases, and you charge 10 diversified Paladins and Draigo.......

Draigo - 275
10 Paladins - 645
-Brotherhood Banner
-Psycannon w/ Sword
-Psycannon w/ Hammer
-Psycannon w/ MC Sword
-MC Psycannon w/ Sword
-Sword
-MC Sword
-Halberd
-MC Halberd
-Hammer

.....the numbers will be roughly as follows (I may have calculated Master Crafting wrong so if someone wants to check the numbers feel free):

Draigo casts Hammerhand.
2x Halberds make 6 attacks, hitting on 3's with one reroll and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 3.83 wounds. The unit activates their Force Weapons and kills 3.83 scarab bases.
Draigo makes 5 attacks hitting on 3's with one reroll and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 3.27 wounds. Draigo activates his Force Weapon and kills 2.71 scarab bases.
5 Swords make 15 attacks, hitting on 3's with two rerolls and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 9.32 wounds which insta-kill 9.32 scarab bases.
1 Brotherhood Banner makes 3 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 1.1 unsaved wounds.

That's 17.47 dead Scarab bases. The remaining 32.53 Scarab bases make 162.65 attacks, hitting on 5's and wounding on 5's and the Paladins have a 2+ save. That's roughly 2.95 unsaved wounds on different targets. 3 of the Paladins with Swords lose their 2+ but maintain a 4++ in combat.

2 Hammers make 6 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. That's roughly 3.33 dead scarab bases.

All told the Scarabs have lost 20.8 bases and lost combat by 59.45. They lose another 13.22 bases from Fearless wounds, bringing their total number down to 15.98 bases, which are wiped out in the following Assault phase before the Scarabs ever get to attack. So 3 Paladins are down a wound and lack an armor save, and all told 920 points of Draigo and Paladins they slew 750 points of scarabs in 2 rounds of combat, and made 450 points worth of Canoptek Spyders useless in the process. They are barely even diminished and the entire Necron gimmick is gone.

Draigo Wing will absolutely DEMOLISH Scarab Farm if the Scarabs make any attempt to engage the Paladins, and they will do it without having an Apothecary. Draigos unit can also withstand a huge amount of ranged firepower while putting out 16 Psycannon shots at 24". Necrons can hold them up with Wraiths and a Destroyer Lord if they do it right, but even then it's just a delay until the Paladins finish them off. Their only hope is to either ignore the Death Star and kill the rest of the list, or kill the Death Star with a truly absurd amount of firepower. Death Rays can do it, Heavy Destroyers can do it, C'Tan can suicide and cause a large number of wounds with their explosions, but to be honest Draigo-Win has a huge advantage that I think the Necrons will have a difficult time overcoming. I'm very interested to see how Reece's game goes against Jy2.

Correction, that is 150 points in scarabs most likely. 450 points in heavy support spiders (STR6/T6/3W), but why o why would a necron player use his scrabs on you? Why not fly around shooting you with the rest of his army. He still has another 350 points to equal out on amount of points spent. You seem to think all the "spawned" scarabs are all the points to count. Those are pretty much 0 point scarabs. In your scenario of 50 spawned scarabs each base cost 3 points! you squast a scarab here is your 3 points....

haha Draigo and Paladins bubble wrap the dreads and vehicles against scarabs and advance towards the crons.
I dont know if there be a balanced scarab farm lists that are VERY shooty and mobile(aside from scarabs themselves). Or Draigo wings can even throw in a DK w shunt and incinerator, go on the offensive early.

Necron transports are just so expensive, cost almost as much as a wave serpent but not as bada$$.

runmymouth wrote:
Correction, that is 150 points in scarabs most likely. 450 points in heavy support spiders (STR6/T6/3W), but why o why would a necron player use his scrabs on you? Why not fly around shooting you with the rest of his army. He still has another 350 points to equal out on amount of points spent. You seem to think all the "spawned" scarabs are all the points to count. Those are pretty much 0 point scarabs. In your scenario of 50 spawned scarabs each base cost 3 points! you squast a scarab here is your 3 points....

No, it's 750 points of Scarabs. In any tournament that uses victory points for a tie breaker or even as an objective, spawned units count, and thus that's 750 points those Paladins scored with 2 rounds of combat. It doesn't matter that you got them for free, they still cost what they cost.

Additionally, you seem to have missed the point. The point is that the Scarab Farm is a gimmick that is completely ruined by a relatively popular and well established list currently on the tournament scene. Blackmoore runs it in most of the events he attends and the number of Grey Knight players in any given tournament is huge. If you look at the rest of that 1,850 point army, tell me what could possibly deal with 10 kitted Paladins lead by Draigo. The Wraiths perhaps could mess with them for a while, but even with a Res Orb and Mindshackle Scarabs in the unit those Warriors are going to lose spectacularly to those Paladins. That leaves the Scarabs and the Spyders which aren't a threat in the slightest.

I'm not saying it's an auto-loss. Good play can still win out for the Necrons, but it's definitely one of their worst matchups. Then again, Paladins are a tough matchup for anyone. See my previous statement about 'Ard Boyz.

Reecius wrote:
@etrnm(54)
We're going to be playing out that exact match-up next week! Jy2 vs. Me with the Scarab farm list to see if the Crons can find a way to battle through that match-up. I am confident that the Crons can win. The main thing that you need to think about in bad match-ups like that is not a straight head to head confrontation, but how to think laterally and use your units to win in other ways if you can't out-fight them. Never engage in a fight you can't win if you can avoid it. We'll see how it goes, Jy2 is a very good player.

Did I hear someone call my name.

Aldarionn wrote: I'm very interested to see how Reece's game goes against Jy2.

Disclaimer: shameless plug-in to my own battle report coming up.

Not that I'm doing this to self-promote the upcoming game, but I actually played a version of the Necron scarab-farm against a Draigowing army in a mini-1K tournament recently. Now at only 1K, things are a little different and while my opponent didn't play a pure Draigowing, I think the results are interesting.

Ok, ok....so I did mean to promote the upcoming battle.

Aldarionn wrote:

runmymouth wrote:
Correction, that is 150 points in scarabs most likely. 450 points in heavy support spiders (STR6/T6/3W), but why o why would a necron player use his scrabs on you? Why not fly around shooting you with the rest of his army. He still has another 350 points to equal out on amount of points spent. You seem to think all the "spawned" scarabs are all the points to count. Those are pretty much 0 point scarabs. In your scenario of 50 spawned scarabs each base cost 3 points! you squast a scarab here is your 3 points....

No, it's 750 points of Scarabs. In any tournament that uses victory points for a tie breaker or even as an objective, spawned units count, and thus that's 750 points those Paladins scored with 2 rounds of combat. It doesn't matter that you got them for free, they still cost what they cost.

Additionally, you seem to have missed the point. The point is that the Scarab Farm is a gimmick that is completely ruined by a relatively popular and well established list currently on the tournament scene. Blackmoore runs it in most of the events he attends and the number of Grey Knight players in any given tournament is huge. If you look at the rest of that 1,850 point army, tell me what could possibly deal with 10 kitted Paladins lead by Draigo. The Wraiths perhaps could mess with them for a while, but even with a Res Orb and Mindshackle Scarabs in the unit those Warriors are going to lose spectacularly to those Paladins. That leaves the Scarabs and the Spyders which aren't a threat in the slightest.

I'm not saying it's an auto-loss. Good play can still win out for the Necrons, but it's definitely one of their worst matchups. Then again, Paladins are a tough matchup for anyone. See my previous statement about 'Ard Boyz.

I don't know about your ard boys but mine have always been based on kps not vps...

I bet, however the games go, it will be a post fest of "well this can beat it and this can beat it and he moved this wrong and that guy got lucky". Seems to be how the majority of the comments on the games have been.

Myself, I am going to enjoy crushing people who math hammer stats and not how the units are actually used. Do not get me wrong, I think math hammer is useful when using it in likely scenarios but not comparing draigo wing to scarabs ... thats just silly. BTW if you fail the armor and make the FNP you still lose the 2+.

tbh mate,
necrons can school that paladin unit so hard it wouldnt be beautifull,
but you need to compare them with something worthy...

Nemehsor Zandrak, Varguard Obyron.
Lord Phasefhifter, Warscythe, Tesseract Labyrinth
Lord Phasefhifter, Warscythe, Tesseract Labyrinth
Lord Phasefhifter, Warscythe, Mindschackle Scarabs
Lord Phasefhifter, Warscythe, Mindschackle Scarabs
Lord Phasefhifter, Warscythe, Mindschackle Scarabs

that is: 900ish points hitmachine, that will school about anything in hth... mindshackles to make them hit themselves; if they ever get the charge, S8 warscythes will mow down palladins, Obyron can seriously wreck house, the whole unit save for obyron has 3++/4+++ if they get charged counterattack will up the number of attacks signficantly. Tesseract labyrinth to take out draigo, or that annoying librarian...

<broadcast mode active: stay on topic! There are plenty of other places to discuss "this can beat that.">

agree, but a bit tired of seeing the numb reply of hey palladins would school the scarab swarm, this is all a question about rock paper siccors attitude.

I think necrons have the tools to beat any list, but they have a problem making an all comers build, so anyone going into tournaments will need to make a perfect analysis of the playingfield to see what list will bring him where.

And as we see here scarabs are the perfect weapon against the average mech spam.

Honestly Valek, I'd say yours was an irrelevant reply instead; the point of the Scarab Swarm comparison was that the Scarabs are a competitive list (seemingly) so people were comparing them to another competitive list and the heart of it; Draigowing is pretty damn common tournament army, so it's reasonable to compare would could be a competitive Necron list against them. Coming up with a Deathstar that takes up 900pts isn't a reasonable comparison IMHO; that's when it becomes rock-paper-scissors.

Then again, comparing much against a 10-man Paladin unit is pretty damn pointless IMHO as they'll beat just about anything.

I wonder how tau would fair against the farmer list? Night fighting has reduced effectiveness. Harder hitting weaponry. High mobility.
Granted tau are not tourney killers, but I think they would have a great match

Mal the Wolf wrote:I wonder how tau would fair against the farmer list? Night fighting has reduced effectiveness. Harder hitting weaponry. High mobility.
Granted tau are not tourney killers, but I think they would have a great match

I think that would be a great fight as well, though now you will see Tau players bring blacksun filters as standard equipment to tournaments just as you will probably see searchlights as stand fare on Imperial armies.

Honestly, I see Tau standing up well against the new necrons. Their fireknives will just kill scarab swarms with the support of pathfinders and with blacksun filters, they could care less about night-fight. Tau is another anti-new codex army. They do well against the grey knights. They can do well against DE and I suspect they will do well against the new necrons also. But that's just my guy instinct telling me that these guys are cool.

dont forget all the suits come standard with Night Vision/Acute Senses too

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

@Clay Williams
Exactly, Zanrdekh adds so much to the list, he didn't even get to do his thing in this game, but we'll be seeing more of him.

@Thread
Arguing over what unit beats what unit in a vacuum is of limited usefulness as that rarely occurs in a real game.

As I have said previously, you don't, or shouldn't, blindly smash two units together. A good player dictates where combat occurs and under what terms.

But we'll see how things go in my game with Jy2! I am very much looking forward to it as our games are always good fun.

Reecius - what do you think of this list at a 2k level. I tried out the wraiths with whip coils and they just seemed too lack punch, they do the same job as the scarabs with quality instead of quantity. I tend to favor quantity over quality due to averages swinging less.

HQ

Imotekh 225

Zandrekh 185

Lord 90
-MS Scarabs
-Scythe
-Orb

Cryptek
- HoE
- Chronomotron 40

Cryptech 55
-solar pulse
-HOD

Cryptech 35
-Hod

Troops

Warriors 20 260

Ghost Arc 115

5 Immortals (tesla) 85

5 Immortals (tesla) 85


Fast Attack

Scarabs 10 150

Scarabs 10 150


Heavy Support

Spyder 175
Spyder Claw
Spyder Gloom Prism

Spyder 175
Spyder Claw
Spyder Gloom Prism

Spyder 175
Spyder Claw
Spyder Gloom Prism

Zandrekh actually comes with an Orb, so you can free up some points there! We missed it.

Other than that, solid! The little squads of Immortals may be a bit vulnerable as it looks like you're gearing them up to shoot, but that is my only criticism, and it's minor. You will whip butt with that list.

It might be worth keeping the Orb on the Necron Lord, because it's an Orb they cannot single out in combat. If Zanhdrekh gets singled out and killed in combat by something like a Power Fist then your entire squad has to roll 5+ RP instead of 4+ since he is not a part of the unit at that point until all rolls have been made and he stands up. With a Lord in the unit they would still get RP on a 4+ as long as Zanhdrekh or the Lord aren't down at the same time.

Just a thought.

Bookmarked , solid list guys!! very impressive

@Aldarionn
That is not a bad point. If you position Znadrekh right, you should be able to keep him out of scary combat. He is very resilient. But it's not bad as a back-up.

With the points saved, we added two psychic defenses in the Spider squads. That helps with Jaws and Lash, which we have found to be brutal against Crons.

@Cryage
Thanks! You will see plenty of more action from this list (or slight variations of it) as we feel it will be a real tournament contender.

I look forward too it, I play 1-2 times a week with friends and right now I'm just tossing random models on the board to see what does and doesn't work.

Truthfully, i've almost given up completely on Lychguard, even with the shields. 5 of them + a cryptek + obryon were chewed up by black templars... granted it took them 3 turns so it was a bit of a tarpit, but they certainly didn't make their points back. I think for CC I will always choose wraiths + a possible destroyer lord w/ warscythe over lychguard every day.

Warriors with Ghost Ark's are just brutal, only problem was last night my squad of 15 warriors + overlord got multi assaulted by terminators and an emperors champion so they got swept pretty quick.

With my GK's I always keep my Psyfileman dread's in the back, and I've been contemplating the idea of having 4x Harbingers of Destruction + 1x lord with a res orb just hiding in cover taking pot shots with their cover save vs high AP weapons and the 4+ reanimation protocols.

I can't wait for the new spyder models to come out, i have 2x of the old ones but as soon as those new ones drop I'm going to be buying them in bulk.