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DarkHound wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Bikes are unfortunately terrible. They're like raptors, except they cost WAY more

They are like Raptors how? Because they both sometimes move 12"?

Bikers move 12" like raptors most of the time. Except, of course, when they're trying to move over 18" in a straight line without touching terrain....

DarkHound wrote:Bikers are a whole different beast. They are faster, tougher and shootier than Raptors. Indeed, they are the fastest thing in the codex.

Whole different beast? Sure, raptors fly over terrain rather than crashing into it, and they don't need to drive around terrain, thus making their movement farther than bikes on properly-terrained boards most turns. They get relentless, making them shootier at a narrow band of the firing range, while being much worse per point in close combat.

If they're different beasts, it's only because bikes are worse.

Which brings me to...

Jihallah wrote:A Raptor moves 12+ d6"
A rhino moves 12"

They aren't that much faster than a rhino.

Firstly, rhinos are much faster than foot CSM, despite moving less than 6" faster per turn, while raptors are virtually the same speed despite the same restrictions?

Secondly, I'd like to see a person who always drives their rhinos and bikes straight forward every time regardless of terrain. Given your very real chance of crashing, most people drive around terrain a little, which decreases their overall forward movement to less than 12"

Jihallah wrote: On turn 2 with raptors with an Icon you can accurately DS d6 more inches forward than if you had that icon in your rhino. On turn 3, you get a whopping 7" on average over the rhino.

Rhinos can't get into close combat like raptors, or shoot dual meltas. Anything riding inside of a rhino has to get out the turn they want to do something, decreasing their movement by 6".

Berzerkers in a rhino get into close combat turn 3, while raptors get there in turn 2. Turning a mid-game attack into an early game attack is no small thing.

Jihallah wrote: Harassing units = disposable? I don't call my speeders disposable. My friends call them "those f r's" or "not them 's again" or "stop ing fielding those annoying 's!", but I don't notice them calling them disposable, and neither do I.

Then either you're using them as a fast assault unit, rather than harassment, in which case you have to compare them to other units that fill this role, or you're spending a lot of points for something that's not doing that much.

I mean, come on, 8 raptors with 2 meltas, icon, and a fist costs 230 points. That's no small chunk of points. At this point, raptors are starting to look bad compared to troops choices. For 229 points of berzerkers you also get 9 power armored models that lose their ability to fly to gain +1 WS, +1 S and +1 I on the charge, the ability to score, and, most importantly, fearless. Taking a pair of failed morale tests and running 3D6" seriously cramps their style.

That or you could take 6 terminators with 5 combi-plasmas, a pair of lightning claws and a power fist. Two fewer models, sure, but they're wearing terminator armor, also show up out of nowhere, and then both plasma the heck out of something and then throw down power weapons in close combat.

Ailaros wrote:Bikers move 12" like raptors most of the time. Except, of course, when they're trying to move over 18" in a straight line without touching terrain....

You are never required to move in a straight line with either unit. Bikers can use their entire 24" of movement to swoop around terrain, but still end up 18" further than where they started to get the save.

Ailaros wrote:Whole different beast? Sure, raptors fly over terrain rather than crashing into it, and they don't need to drive around terrain, thus making their movement farther than bikes on properly-terrained boards most turns. They get relentless, making them shootier at a narrow band of the firing range, while being much worse per point in close combat.

Relentless makes them shootier on all bands of range. At no point is a bolt pistol more effective than a twin-linked bolter.

In close combat, a Biker scores .88 wounds in shooting compared to .33 from the Raptor. Each of them then score .75 wounds, all of which is before armor saves. Bikers are 1.65 times more expensive than Raptors, so if you multiply the Raptor's total by that much you get 1.78 compared to 1.63 for the Bikers. In sheer combat effectiveness, taking into account the price difference, Raptors score an extra .15 wounds per 33 points spent; that's almost a single extra wound scored at a full squad of 200 points. I would trade .15 wounds inflicted for an extra point of toughness any day.

DarkHound wrote:Bikers can use their entire 24" of movement to swoop around terrain, but still end up 18" further than where they started to get the save

Only if they go in a nearly straight line. Turboboosting only works if there isnt enough terrain. Otherwise the board is dictating where your models move. It's the same advantage raptors have by flying, except in reverse, as a penalty.

DarkHound wrote:In close combat, a Biker scores .88 wounds in shooting compared to .33 from the Raptor. Each of them then score .75 wounds, all of which is before armor saves.

What about cover saves?

As for relentless, compare moving 12" and shooting a plasma gun 12" to moving 12" and then shooting a plasma gun either 12" or once up to 24". That's not a lot of difference, especially given that you can only take two such guns.

Ailaros wrote:
Which brings me to...

Jihallah wrote:A Raptor moves 12+ d6"
A rhino moves 12"

They aren't that much faster than a rhino.

Firstly, rhinos are much faster than foot CSM, despite moving less than 6" faster per turn, while raptors are virtually the same speed despite the same restrictions?

Rhino's are faster than foot CSM. Really Ailaros. I Never Knew That. What are you trying to say here? Raptors are virtually the same speed?... which is what I said- they do move faster, not that much faster.

Ailaros wrote:
Secondly, I'd like to see a person who always drives their rhinos and bikes straight forward every time regardless of terrain. Given your very real chance of crashing, most people drive around terrain a little, which decreases their overall forward movement to less than 12".

You can deploy to the SIDE of said terain, which can still give you cover. You have smoke launchers. My favourite CSM army was a pair of vindi's, a raider and a bunch of rhinos. Everything moves 12, straight forward (because I'm not trying to drive through the trees, I'm trying to drive to the side of them I'm obscured to that rifleman over there) and pop smoke. Holy crap who needs cover on the first turn with smoke! It's the second and third turn that counts.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote: On turn 2 with raptors with an Icon you can accurately DS d6 more inches forward than if you had that icon in your rhino. On turn 3, you get a whopping 7" on average over the rhino.

Rhinos can't get into close combat like raptors, or shoot dual meltas. Anything riding inside of a rhino has to get out the turn they want to do something, decreasing their movement by 6".

Berzerkers in a rhino get into close combat turn 3, while raptors get there in turn 2. Turning a mid-game attack into an early game attack is no small thing.

All this when we are talking about using raptors as ICON BEARERS. Not about close combat, not about slagging vehicles. About why bikes better suit the role of an icon bearer than raptors. You didn't want to talk about my list of people who don't like doing the chainsword tango with raptors?

Clearly do not want to listen, and just be sippin' on that haterade.

Ailaros wrote:
...Two fewer models, sure, but they're wearing terminator armor, also show up out of nowhere...

show up out of nowhere? You're not thinking of DS'ing them are you

Jihallah wrote:

Ailaros wrote:rhinos are much faster than foot CSM, despite moving less than 6" faster per turn, while raptors are virtually the same speed despite the same restrictions?

Rhino's are faster than foot CSM. Really Ailaros. I Never Knew That. What are you trying to say here? Raptors are virtually the same speed?... which is what I said- they do move faster, not that much faster.

You missed my point. You say that rhinos traveling 0-5" faster is "faster" while raptors moving 1-6" faster is "not that much faster". Why the double standard?

Jihallah wrote: Holy crap who needs cover on the first turn with smoke!

Those who don't roll well for first turn. I repeat my point, though. I've seen only one person literally pretend like difficult terrain didn't exist while moving their tracked vehicles. Everybody else will drive somewhat around terrain when there is the option.

Jihallah wrote: You didn't want to talk about my list of people who don't like doing the chainsword tango with raptors?

Because an opponent who can't handle a handful of chainswords isn't worth bothering over. Against cruddy opponents, of course raptors are good.

Jihallah wrote: You're not thinking of DS'ing them are you

Meltacide? Plasmacide?

DSing is risky, but so is fielding small squads with high target priority.

Ailaros wrote:Only if they go in a nearly straight line. Turboboosting only works if there isnt enough terrain. Otherwise the board is dictating where your models move. It's the same advantage raptors have by flying, except in reverse, as a penalty.

I play on a Cities of Death board pretty often, and I still don't have this issue. I'm not sure what I can say.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:In close combat, a Biker scores .88 wounds in shooting compared to .33 from the Raptor. Each of them then score .75 wounds, all of which is before armor saves.

What about cover saves?

As for relentless, compare moving 12" and shooting a plasma gun 12" to moving 12" and then shooting a plasma gun either 12" or once up to 24". That's not a lot of difference, especially given that you can only take two such guns.

I don't know what you're trying to say. I haven't even mentioned being able to shoot out to 24", but you're right, Bikers are better because of that too. In regards to my model, I assumed that they were attacking a T4 target without any additional equipment. No matter what save I apply to that model, it would decrease their damage at the same rate.

I'm confident I've shown that Bikers are statistically similar to Raptors on a point by point basis, then surpass them in speed and durability.

Things cannot be shot in close combat, so...

Raptors in CC vs. Ork Boyz = 15 A (if on charge) = 7.5 H = 5 W (with chainswords) = 1.666... un-saved wounds
Bikers in CC vs. Ork Boyz = 15 A ........ 1.666... unsaved wounds

-- [DISCLAIMER] I am aware that charging 5 bikers or 5 raptors into a large squad of Ork Boyz is a bad idea on the face of it but it makes for a straightforward and common example --

I see it as 165 points of Bikers doing as much CC damage as 100 points of Raptors. Both can be upgraded etc but with the same upgrades Bikers will still have a greater cost. Yes, at range the bikers do more damage but I'd rather hide my squad in a big but soft squad of enemy infantry - where they cannot be shot => that in CC Bikers cause a third of a cound per model on either account and the bikers cost more...

I think the conclusion was reached that CSM fast attack choices are bad in general BUT their saving grace is that in a fun list people don't expect them and so they can cause a laugh (a.k.a. FUN)...

Necrolol

I don't know why such a big argument over raptors vs bikers. They both stink.

5 plague marines in a rhino are the best melta/plasma delivery system chaos has. They are fearless, tough, mobile, scoring. Termicide is the clear #2, being survivable, mobile (kinda), but a bit unpredictable.

Bikers could be good icon bearers with turbo boost, but for Chaos reserves you don't know when they are coming. If it happens to be turn 4 I doubt any bikers will still be alive. You will probably still have some berzerkers or plague marines around with cheap personal icons though.

Raptors and bikes are equal in the fact that both units are overcosted for what you can reasonably expect them to accomplish.

The only time I field them is when the force org chart is full in higher point games.