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They seem alright to me and yet they get so little use for what they are.
I mean they're stat line is no worse than the Loyalist assault marines or SoB seraphim but they get used so much less...

I was wondering why because they seem good on paper to me

Anyone with experience as to why this is?

This thread again?

OK. Yes, they're quick and can have 2 special weapons. They're also obvious targets, easy to kill without expensive upgrades, and expensive.

Plus, germicide is better at melta delivery.

So what makes them so much worse than their loyalist counterparts?

Yes, termicide is better at melta delivery but no less of a high priority target in your opponents opinion.
Termicide will come down via DS in most cases or be shuttled to location by LR but will likely get one turn of firing into a tank.
They may or may not recover their points.

Whereas, there is a unit of flying nuisances that can move quickly and hopefully stay in cover as much as possible but also have a chance of taking on hordes.

So, Why no raptors???

Raptors are 2 points more expensive than their loyalist counter parts, and yet give up ATSKNF and Combat Tactics. Even the loyalist counter-parts aren't great. Besides, everything Raptors are good at (moving 12", double specials, CCWs) is done by standard Marines in a Rhino for virtually the same price, but the latter is scoring.

They are not bad by themselves. The issue is what else you can get in the same codex for the same points.

And for me, the real problem for the raptors is the cheap rhinos. At 35 points, you put armor between your guys and danger, and you can zip around with dozer blades through difficult terrain all day for another 5. With two firing ports, I can melta or plasma away from within the relative safety of the rhino. Why should I be out there with a jump pack?

In terms of assault, raptors compete with zerkers, which outclass them in every way but mobility. But, mobility can be solved with a rhino again.

They will not beat the CC specialists of other armies, and the units they can stomp, e.g. GEQ, can be killed in so many other ways by other units.

Add to that expensive models and the need to field a decent number of them for resilience.

So, raptors are the "yes, but why?" unit in the CSM codex.

I have a squad of them for my CSM. They are so sorry they are just primed BLack. I refuse to give them color. Just to many other viable options to be using them. I will use them if I am playing doubles and my partners list allows for them to be used.

BA assault marines are scoring, and they have several options in the codex with the ever impressive DoA rule, meaning they are very good at deep striking. Even vanilla assault marines are cheaper and have ATSNKF. SoB Seraphim are really good at filling the air with bullets (and getting out of melee). Raptors are just unremarkable.

So a combination
1) Too expensive in points
2) Too expensive in money
3) Lack of good special rules
4) vehicles are really good.
5) Khorne Berzerkers exist.

It really makes no use to compare raptors to units in any other codex, as you're playing with a different codex.

The real reason not to take raptors is because of their place within the chaos codex itself. I mean, start by comparing raptors with regular chaos space marines. They have the same number of attacks, the same possible upgrades, and are the exact same as a regular troops choice in every way except that you pay +33% for the ability to get into close combat turn 2 instead of turn 3.

It's kind of hard to see what they really add compared to their troops choice counterpart.

Then, of course, you compare raptors to other fast options. CSM can take pinpoint deepstrike terminators for way cheap, and they can also take demon princes and outflanking chosen, and obliterators. Basically, there just isn't quite the same need for them as in other codecies that have similar units.

Of course, MoK raptors are pretty icky to face against, but, as mentioned...

Necrontyr40k wrote:In terms of assault, raptors compete with zerkers, which outclass them in every way but mobility. But, mobility can be solved with a rhino again.

While the rhino doesn't actually help in this case, it's still true that for a 66% markup over vanilla CSM instead of a 33% markup, you get a unit that's only somewhat slower, but is MUCH hittier, while retaining its status as a scoring unit.

I can see them working in certain strategies (a squad of raptors flies forward turn 1 and then calls in DSing termies or something), but otherwise... meh...

I love Raptors in Assault style games, in other types of senarios their about usless unless they pull off a charge on an unsuspecting unit. These guys get shot alot and are just targets if your opponent knows to shot them first. I mainly use bezerkers in rhino's as opposed to jump troops. A SM army can really tear up Raptors as SM jump troops are better in CC. I would prefere to get more Raptors (8) is not much of a unit that offers anything.

Ailaros wrote:
While the rhino doesn't actually help in this case

I have to disagree. I stick the zerkers in rhinos, move 12 inches with dozer blades on turn 1, and pop smoke. Now if something comes too close, on my second turn, the zerkers jump out before the rhino moves, so now they can assault. That is a decent delivery system, albeit it would have been much better if the rhinos were assault vehicles. By contrast, slogging it on foot would additional turns of being in the open getting shot. That is one of the problems with raptors - they are out there in the open all the time. You can deep-strike them, but then they still cannot assault until at least turn 3.

Also, the zerkers can be stuck in a land raider to ride in style and assault from out of AV14, but it is costly, and GW took away POTMS, because loyalists just have to have the cooler toys (shakes fist).

My point was that in both the cases of berzerkers on foot and berzerkers in a rhino, their maximum distance per turn is 12".

Raptors are just faster, moving up to 18", so there's really no comparison. Plus, raptors ignore terrain, while foot gets bogged down, and rhinos are occasionally immobilized.

You can't put MoK on Raptors. Too bad, i do love those models.

Nagashek wrote:You can't put MoK on Raptors. Too bad, i do love those models.

You can put an Icon of Khorne which is the same thing...
...Which can be shot out of the unit and then you lose it's ability.

Raptors are cool sure. But anything they can do, another unit will also do, and do it far more effectively.

Yeah, and that mark costs about as much as another raptor.

Sadly. None of the FA aside from bikers appeal to me and their grotesquely overpriced to 25 points a Swiftclaw.

If I may speak freely. Focus on you're Troops and Elites. That's where Chaos shines.

More Berzerkers or Plague Marines are a better option then throwing in raptors or any of the other FA.

"waaah! Parking lot means I can't get to the really valuable targets!'
"They put a tarpit/empty rhino in the way to block my movement!"
"The objective is 3 stories up a building!"

Immortal Child wrote:Yeah, and that mark costs about as much as another raptor.

But it's almost always better. an icon on an 8-raptor squad gives the squad 8 more attacks, compared to 3.

Jihallah wrote:"waaah! Parking lot means I can't get to the really valuable targets!'
"They put a tarpit/empty rhino in the way to block my movement!"
"The objective is 3 stories up a building!"

well, sure, and this. Raptors have some neat little tricks, but that's pretty much it. with other units you also get neat tricks, but you also get some real killing power.

Loyalist assault marines are pretty crappy in HtH for the points*. Raptors are actually worse, though a small squad with a couple of meltas is decent value. The problem being that after needed HS for fire support, excellent HQs, and important support Elites, you're already tight on points for sufficient Troops. There's nothing left for FA in a normal-sized list.

I have used and heard of large squads of Raptors working; 15-20 with Icon of Khorne, so you get more value from the Icon. It's a bit of a gamble because if you blow a Morale test you're screwed, but they can work pretty well. You do wind up low on fire support or scoring units, though.

*BA only being exceptions because they're Troops, can take Meltas, AND can get FNP & Furious Assault from Sang Priests. THREE improvements to make them a good unit.

Now I understand

Don't take raptors because they take up points that can be used for something better elsewhere
Are there any good FA choices then for the CSM, what about bikers?

Bikers have the same general problem as Raptors: everything they do can be done better else-where. However, they are different enough to warrant taking. Turbo-boost gives a CSM force real speed that it traditionally lacks. Combined with double specials and 2 close combat weapons, being close to the enemy is actually useful. To best take advantage of them, you'll want some Deepstrikers who will use their Icon, otherwise more long ranged shooting is efficient.

No.

Bikes are unfortunately terrible. They're like raptors, except they cost WAY more, and instead of flying over terrain, they take dangerous terrain checks when they move through it. The extra 6" of shooting they get from relentless hardly covers that, and turboboosting only works if you're not playing with enough terrain (which, let me remind you once again, they crash in instead of going over). That and, correct me if I'm wrong, but bikes can't go up floors in ruins, making them even more worthless against a shrewd opponent in objectives matches.

Literally your only other options is spawn, which cost even MORE, can't shoot, are SLOW and purposeful, can take no upgrades, are mindless, and can't be taken in squads larger than 3, making them KP fodder. Gifts of Chaos aside, there is no case I can possibly think of where a CSM player should ever take chaos spawn.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:"waaah! Parking lot means I can't get to the really valuable targets!'
"They put a tarpit/empty rhino in the way to block my movement!"
"The objective is 3 stories up a building!"

well, sure, and this. Raptors have some neat little tricks, but that's pretty much it. with other units you also get neat tricks, but you also get some real killing power.

Your not meant to throw raptors at CC units.


To clarify- do Not throw Raptors at CC units.

They are not a dedicated CC unit. They are not capable of facing a dedicated CC unit. They will struggle against mediocre CC units like ogryns.
Because they are not a dedicated CC unit.

They are Bullies. They like to pick on the little kid. They like to take candy from babies. They like to say rude things to your grandma as they fly by the retirement home. They kick sand in peoples faces as they sunbath on the beach.

You know your ex girlfriend? The one with the little condition? The condition she, y'know, shared and passed on to you? You know what I'm talking about right *nudge nudge*

A Raptor gave her that in the first place man


You pick on units with them. You bully armor with meltaguns. You bully tac squads, because although my raptors do sweet all for a "CC unit", they certainly beat down tac squads. They swoop in to get rid of dreads in my face. They jump into buildings to say G'day to guard HW squads. They perch on a high piece of terrain, ready to be the handle to my hammer when I play vs orks- My plague marine anvil, being belted by my hammer of 'zerkers and raptors. The 'zerkers are easy to predict where they will charge into CC. Last time the raptors didn't- I had a home obj, he had a home obj, and we had an enormous brawl for the middle. Raptors decided the grots and the lootaz looked like good playmates. You Don't Send Raptors At CC Units, Unless You Are Already Engaged And Need Help Or You Are Also Charging With Bezerkers. You Use Them To Swoop Up Weak Targets, Using Their Mobility.


I swear, Everyone knows that you chop the shooty ones and shoot the choppy ones.

And Every. Single. Time someone mentions Raptors, the response is "uuuhhhhhhh the get smashed by other CC units!"



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:
Then, of course, you compare raptors to other fast options. CSM can take pinpoint deepstrike terminators for way cheap...

Ailaros, bro...


What are "pinpoint deepstrike terminators" ? We have deepstriking terminators, but I wouldn't call them "pinpoint" as far as their deepstriking goes

Jihallah wrote:
What are "pinpoint deepstrike terminators" ? We have deepstriking terminators, but I wouldn't call them "pinpoint" as far as their deepstriking goes

They deepstrike without scatter within 6" of icons. That is pinpoint in my book.

I agree about the raptors. I am building a nice large squad of them (with 2 meltas and champion alternatives) by converting blood-angels models (for insult/grudge sake and to save $$$).

But, I will not field them until the new codex next year, when point costs can drop enough to make room for the flying bullies. Right now, the points just don't work for me.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Jihallah wrote:
What are "pinpoint deepstrike terminators" ? We have deepstriking terminators, but I wouldn't call them "pinpoint" as far as their deepstriking goes

They deepstrike without scatter within 6" of icons. That is pinpoint in my book.

What happens when you don't have an Icon where you need it? What happens if my Icon is on the OTHER side of the board to where I want/NEED to strike? What happens if you haven't been able to move far up the board to strike where you want to? Yes I can take bikes- but that's telling me I have pinpoint deepstrike as long as i invest a minimum of 109 per 6" bubble, and ignoring the fact that bikes movement can be blocked.
So when You have a Pin on one side, and a icon on the other, I'd like to see a pinpoint deepstrike. I give ya a 1/3 chance
Termicide is not pinpoint, not by a longshot. It can be guided, is they way I'd put it.

Necrontyr40k wrote:... by converting blood-angels models (for insult/grudge sake and to save $$$).

Lol, effective or not, this is a good reason to take them. What's best is if you even paint them to look just like death company and explain to the BA player you're playing against that they switched over to your side right before the battle.

Jihallah wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
well, sure, and this. Raptors have some neat little tricks, but that's pretty much it. with other units you also get neat tricks, but you also get some real killing power.

They are Bullies. They like to pick on the little kid. They like to take candy from babies. They like to say rude things to your grandma as they fly by the retirement home. They kick sand in peoples faces as they sunbath on the beach.

Okay, sure, they're harassment units. They pick, they poke, and they're obnoxious and clever. Harassment units, however, aren't necessarily ALL that great in 40k (note the general lack of guard players using sentinels and penal legionnaires, or eldar players using shining spears, or marine players bringing loads of land speeders, etc.). The real value to harassment units is to use a cheap, disposable unit to force your opponents to change their plans, thus giving you the initiative.

While raptors can certainly steal said initiative with what they can do, you're still spending over 200 points on a harassment unit. That's just cost prohibitive for the only role they're really all that well equipped to perform. If they also did other things other than harass, like score, or linebacked, or gave target saturation to something else, then perhaps they'd be more worth it, but 200 points for a unit that's supposed to be disposable and obnoxious, if little else seems pretty steep.

Ailaros wrote:I can see them working in certain strategies (a squad of raptors flies forward turn 1 and then calls in DSing termies or something), but otherwise...

Yeah, this is the only thing I'd ever use them for - useful deepstrikes for things that arrive early.

The only problem is that once you've paid for HQ and troops and for the raptors themselves (which aren't cheap assuming you want them to survive until turn 2 or 3), there becomes dissapointingly few points to actually spend on the things to deepstrike in.

Really the dilemma of raptors in the greater list-building scheme. Sort of like how demon princes have lots of wounds, are really tough, and can fly, but can't take a personal icon, while a lord with an icon is slow and weak and can't get the teleport homer up there quick enough.

Ailaros wrote:Bikes are unfortunately terrible. They're like raptors, except they cost WAY more

They are like Raptors how? Because they both sometimes move 12"? And a Rhino is like a Falcon, I'm sure.

Bikers are a whole different beast. They are faster, tougher and shootier than Raptors. Indeed, they are the fastest thing in the codex.

I used to run Bikers in my 1850+ lists. 4 of them with an Icon of Slaanesh and 2 Plasma or Meltaguns. I used them as a cleaning crew; they chase down squads that my Noise and Plague Marines don't quite finish off. Firing TL-Bolters then charging at I5 leaves very little to retaliate.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I can see them working in certain strategies (a squad of raptors flies forward turn 1 and then calls in DSing termies or something), but otherwise...

Yeah, this is the only thing I'd ever use them for - useful deepstrikes for things that arrive early.

Ailaros wrote:The only problem is that once you've paid for HQ and troops and for the raptors themselves (which aren't cheap assuming you want them to survive until turn 2 or 3), there becomes dissapointingly few points to actually spend on the things to deepstrike in.

Gents! Really?

A Raptor moves 12+ d6"
A rhino moves 12"

They aren't that much faster than a rhino. On turn 2 with raptors with an Icon you can accurately DS d6 more inches forward than if you had that icon in your rhino. On turn 3, you get a whopping 7" on average over the rhino. Think about that, guys. Especially the bit where bikes are mentioned as terrible. Bikes turbo boost 24" on the first turn. Do I really need to keep going, are can we figure out where we were going wrong here, gents?

Ailaros wrote:
Okay, sure, they're harassment units. They pick, they poke, and they're obnoxious and clever. Harassment units, however, aren't necessarily ALL that great in 40k (note the general lack of guard players using sentinels and penal legionnaires, or eldar players using shining spears, or marine players bringing loads of land speeders, etc.). The real value to harassment units is to use a cheap, disposable unit to force your opponents to change their plans, thus giving you the initiative.

While raptors can certainly steal said initiative with what they can do, you're still spending over 200 points on a harassment unit. That's just cost prohibitive for the only role they're really all that well equipped to perform. If they also did other things other than harass, like score, or linebacked, or gave target saturation to something else, then perhaps they'd be more worth it, but 200 points for a unit that's supposed to be disposable and obnoxious, if little else seems pretty steep.

Harassing units = disposable? I don't call my speeders disposable. My friends call them "those f r's" or "not them 's again" or "stop ing fielding those annoying 's!", but I don't notice them calling them disposable, and neither do I.

Lets think about things raptors would like to play with. That aren't going to be harassed by raptors before "disposing" of them. Lets start with guard- I'm pretty sure raptors with meltaguns and why not lets give 'em a fist like to handle:

-Anything outside of a powerblob or ogryns

Yeah all those vehicles can get slagged. Those sent's can't take the heat of meltaguns and fist swings too. vet squads or unblobbed PIS' don't like it. HWS, they don't like it. CCS/PCS, ooohhh they don't like it one bit, no sir. Everything outside that powerblob which will overwhelm me and those ogryns who will tarpit me ain't going to be over the moon to be doing the chainsword tango with raptors.

What about SM? Lets list what we DON'T want to play with, it seems a smaller list

- Dreads, unless you want to stop a shooty dread from shooting. You'll just end up bogged down praying for lucky PF swings
-Terminators, assault and tactical.
- Honour guard
-The much dreaded and often fielded vanguard veterans
-Assault marines; its a fair fight

Outside of that, They do enjoy slagging rhino's, preds, razorbacks, vindicators, have a crack at a landraider. They'll slap down speeders, not so guaranteed if they turbo boosted, but if they didn't... Sternguards highly valuable shooting gets shutdown, shame its a fair fight though- good thing you've got JP's to help get that charge off! Tac marines get beat down, having 1 attack vs 2. Troops are more valuable than a fast attack choice! speaking of their other troop choice, scouts- oh they don't like doing the chainsword tango with raptors.

What about eldar, before I bugger off to bed? What don't we want to play with?

-Avatar, nuff said.
-Seer council, unless your charging with something else as well
-banshees/scorps/harlies. Dedicated CC units, 'nuff said.
-Wraithlord, No ability to hurt it in CC without a fist

Oh those metla wielding raptors. How they love slagging vehicles. Warwalkers, serpents, falcons, prisms. They live for it you might say! The only thing that goes with the scent of slagged wraithbone is the chittering noise of a guardian or dire avenger quaking in his fancy little space elf boots. Because those space elfs do not enjoy doing the chainsword tango with raptors.

Mannahnin wrote:Loyalist assault marines are pretty crappy in HtH for the points*. Raptors are actually worse, though a small squad with a couple of meltas is decent value. The problem being that after needed HS for fire support, excellent HQs, and important support Elites, you're already tight on points for sufficient Troops. There's nothing left for FA in a normal-sized list.

I have used and heard of large squads of Raptors working; 15-20 with Icon of Khorne, so you get more value from the Icon. It's a bit of a gamble because if you blow a Morale test you're screwed, but they can work pretty well. You do wind up low on fire support or scoring units, though.

*BA only being exceptions because they're Troops, can take Meltas, AND can get FNP & Furious Assault from Sang Priests. THREE improvements to make them a good unit.

Bikes are similarly a bit overpriced, but as Darkhound pointed out, they bring the unique capability of Turbo-Boosting, which is the only way to get an Icon (for terminator/lesser daemon delivery) or an Aspiring Champion (for Greater Daemon delivery) 24" forward in one turn. A minimum investment of 144 for three models with icon of glory, champion, and two meltaguns is quite a bit. 210 for 5 might be worth it, in the "bully" role described, performing their delivery duties and then going to assault small shooty units like long fangs or lootas, or just go meltagun tanks. But you run into the same issue above where you usually don't have the points left for this unit after HQ, Troops, HS, and Elite. Particularly when you consider that the useful cheap Elite support units (termicide, Dreads) come in around half the cost (100-120pts).

Mannahnin wrote:

Bikes are similarly a bit overpriced, but as Darkhound pointed out, they bring the unique capability of Turbo-Boosting, which is the only way to get an Icon (for terminator/lesser daemon delivery) or an Aspiring Champion (for Greater Daemon delivery) 24" forward in one turn. A minimum investment of 144 for three models with icon of glory, champion, and two meltaguns is quite a bit. 210 for 5 might be worth it, in the "bully" role described, performing their delivery duties and then going to assault small shooty units like long fangs or lootas, or just go meltagun tanks.

Bikers? Bully?

I'm standing in your path, waitin' to tarpit you bro