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Codex: Jakero

/thread

Mechanicus cant have their own Codex unless its strictly for games allowing Titans. I haven't read any fluff that tells of a Mechanicus force deploying to war somewhere without titans, and being that titans are not used in normal sized games it wouldn't make sense from a fluff point of view to have a Mechanicus army that didn't include titans. While I would like to see it from a gaming and modelling point of view the background just doesn't support small forces of Skiitari and the like fighting independently from the titan legions. It would be cool to see some Mechanicus support units released though for use in APOC games along side titans.

That being said It would be cool to see a penal colonies codex as an offshoot of the IG. I think it would make for a really cool army with many different units and a lot of conversion potential. It would be cool to have a Death Korps of Krieg codex too, move all the forgeworld stuff over and turn em into plastic kits. I just love that whole range and wish it was more accessible and affordable.

to fix all fot he IG factions rather than making new codexs all they have to do is re introduce doctrines...why write a new codex when you can take a few old pages and glue them in?

Codex: Space Marines (all in one)
Codex: Chaos (Marines, Deamons and Humans)
Codex Inqisition (Xenos, Malleus, Hereticus, Grey Knights, Deathwatch)
Codex Imperium (Sisters of Battle, Fraetis Militia, Arbites)
Codex Non-Imperial Non-Chaos Humans
Codex Hrud
Codex Mechanicus

Thare1774 wrote:Mechanicus cant have their own Codex unless its strictly for games allowing Titans. I haven't read any fluff that tells of a Mechanicus force deploying to war somewhere without titans, and being that titans are not used in normal sized games it wouldn't make sense from a fluff point of view to have a Mechanicus army that didn't include titans. While I would like to see it from a gaming and modelling point of view the background just doesn't support small forces of Skiitari and the like fighting independently from the titan legions. It would be cool to see some Mechanicus support units released though for use in APOC games along side titans.

Perhaps this could be answered by way of an ability or upgrade available to the Magos (or whatever other HQ names they give out) and he would get an "orbital bombardment" type shot that scatters as normal.. from a gameplay perspective it operates the same as many off the board abilities, but from the fluff standpoint answers the titan question,without significantly altering the balance of the game, by introducing a titan (as in warhound or larger) to the game.

I had also suggested the availability of the Knights from the Mechanicus HH book, as they are not really titans, but most people place them in that same category.

Knights would make sense, they would just have to be about as powerful as a dreadnought or dreadknight which im cool with. But then you'd have to require at least one in the force. I would love to see it happen in a legitimate way for sure. I just don't think GW is willing to put the work into making sure the fluff lines up, it would probably just be stupid. But the models would be cool for sure.

Cyvash wrote:Well given what is left.... The Mechanicus, who wouldnt mind haveing a mechanicus driven codex.

Amen to this, Titans for all

Random high-tech weakling Xenos with skimmers (Eldar, DEldar, Tau) could probably easily work from the same list, despite different minis. As could random Horde-themed Xenos (Nids, Orks). Merge that crap.

Certainly no more loyalist marine factions, we could actually probably do with fewer, especially given that most of them outright share identical or very near identical units/wargear/etc with upwards of 80/90% of their codex's.

A general "Lost and the Damned" list would be cool, something with Traitor Guard/Chaos Soldiers, beastmen, mutants, zombies, lesser chaotic entities, mutated beasts, heretek's and corrupted war machines, etc.

Likewise, an Adeptus Mechanicus list would be awesome.

an "Agents of the Imperium" list could be fun, something that includes Inquisitors, Ad Mech Magos's, Assassins, Rogue Traders, Warbands, etc. Essentially the GK henchmen entry but greatly expanded and with more xenos stuff and things like bounty hunters, lots of mechanicus stuff, etc.

As for Xenos, there's lots of stuff they could do, Hrud, Enslavers, etc.

I would vote "None"

I think we've got plenty of different armies, with interesting model lines and unique rules. I think GW should focus on the ones that are lacking (Chaos Daemons for instance) than any brand new race.

- Expansion book for the most popular Ork Klanz - Goffs, Evil Sunz, Bad Moons.

I'm not too familiar with 40K fluff so I can't think of anything besides that.

They should make an Exodite Codex.

Zweischneid wrote:Random high-tech weakling Xenos with skimmers (Eldar, DEldar, Tau) could probably easily work from the same list, despite different minis. As could random Horde-themed Xenos (Nids, Orks). Merge that crap.

You suggest merging the Xenos codexs but not the Marine codexs............................

Codex Mechanicus
Codex Death Guard


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Codex Mechanicus
Codex Death Guard

bombboy1252 wrote:
You suggest merging the Xenos codexs but not the Marine codexs............................

Definitly. Most Marine codexes are popular books that combine a large fraction of players on them. Merging them would kill game-diversity as an ever greater majority of players converges on ever fewer books. Most Xenos-books in contrast bring fewer players to the hobby each. They are thus not very good allocation of the limited GW-resources for keeping the game fresh and fun.



A little thought experiment to dwell on the point:

To use a strongly simplified example: Imagine the entire 40K hobby would consist of 1000 players and a total of 5 Codexes (the maximum number GW could support for the sake of argument; 2 Space Marine books, 2 Xenos books and a "3rd one", say IG or Chaos or something:

Player distribution however is not equal, as some books are more popular then others.

Space Marines 1: 400 players (40% of the players)
Space Marines 2: 250 players (25%)
Guard or Chaos: 150 players (15%)
Xenos Codex 1: 150 players (15%)
Xenos Codex 2: 50 players (5%)

Version one: Lets merge the Marines and make a new Xenos book. Marine-players converge as Xenos-players stratify (assuming 20% of players of each old Xenos book jump to the new).

Space Marines: 650 players (65% of the players)
Guard or Chaos: 150 players (15%)
Xenos Codex 1: 120 players (12%)
Xenos Codex 2: 40 players (4%)
Xenos Codex 3: 40 players (4%)

As a result, the 40K metagame has become significantly less diverse and more uniform. The large chunk of Marine players, 65% of the hobby, now converge on only one book, while the comparatively small faction of 20% Xenos players are lavished with 3 books and 3 times the GW attention for not even 1/3rd of active gamers..

Version two: Lets merge Xenos and make a new Marine book. Xenos players converge and Marine players stratify (again assuming 20% of players of each old Marine book jump to the new)

Space Marines 1: 320 players (32 % of the players)
Space Marines 2: 200 players (20%)
Space Marines 3: 130 players (13%)
Guard or Chaos: 150 players (15%)
Xenos Codex 1: 200 players (20%)

Now, the spread is much more even. All books now serve over 10% of players and the concentration on the most popular books has been mitigated. A much fairer share of players is served with each GW-update each cycle and the gaming-environment is more diverse, with armies spread more evenly among players.




Now, the numbers above are clearly arbitrary. Nevertheless there is a moral of the story: It doesn't matter which "in-game" faction gets the most or the least books. For a healthy, diverse and fun gaming environment, the objective must be to get the best possible spread of players across books: e.g. avoid "concentrations" of players among a single popular one as well as to avoid inefficient diversity of books that draw too few players to change the overall meta-gaming-enviornment.

As Marine books are clearly the popular books, you will want to have more of them to spread the numerous Marine-fans around. As Xenos are less popular by and large, there is potential for mergers. In either case, the worst thing you could possibly do is merge the more popular books (e.g. Marines), as this would aggravate the loopside in the player-base many times over.

Mechanicus cant have their own Codex unless its strictly for games allowing Titans. I haven't read any fluff that tells of a Mechanicus force deploying to war somewhere without titans, and being that titans are not used in normal sized games it wouldn't make sense from a fluff point of view to have a Mechanicus army that didn't include titans. While I would like to see it from a gaming and modelling point of view the background just doesn't support small forces of Skiitari and the like fighting independently from the titan legions. It would be cool to see some Mechanicus support units released though for use in APOC games along side titans.

Your argument is completely valid.

But Warhammer40k is about the smaller battles in the major wars going on.

An admech army of Skitarii would battle alongside titans but you dont need to feild the titan on the table top. Simply use ordinance barrages to rep the titans fring down onto the feild.

DeffDred wrote:Your argument is completely valid.

But Warhammer40k is about the smaller battles in the major wars going on.

An admech army of Skitarii would battle alongside titans but you dont need to feild the titan on the table top. Simply use ordinance barrages to rep the titans fring down onto the feild.

Well, tthey sure tried this approach of "simulating" immersion into a greater battle, for example by giving Landraiders the Deepstrike rule, explicitly to represent their insertion via Thunderhawk Transports. Instead, the player-base reacted with ridicule of flying Landraiders dropping from orbit.

Based on this, it appears one runs the danger of severly overestimating the intelligence and imagination of 40K players by and large, by believing they would be able to conceive action off-the-board represented by short-hand rules and effect-simulation brought to the smaller 40K game.

Zweischneid wrote:


Now, the numbers above are clearly arbitrary. Nevertheless there is a moral of the story: It doesn't matter which "in-game" faction gets the most or the least books. For a healthy, diverse and fun gaming environment, the objective must be to get the best possible spread of players across books: e.g. avoid "concentrations" of players among a single popular one as well as to avoid inefficient diversity of books that draw too few players to change the overall meta-gaming-enviornment.

As Marine books are clearly the popular books, you will want to have more of them to spread the numerous Marine-fans around. As Xenos are less popular by and large, there is potential for mergers. In either case, the worst thing you could possibly do is merge the more popular books (e.g. Marines), as this would aggravate the loopside in the player-base many times over.

While your example may have some measure of truth to it, I think what you fail to take into account is how many people who start 40k, start with Space Marines. As players progress in the game, many tend to want to branch out, as it were, and collect and play other armies. Often times, the reason there are "so many" marine players, is because a good chunk of them are new to the hobby, and were either 'forced' to play marines by excessively pushy game store staff, or through the peer pressure of other 40k gamers who will tell them that its easiest to learn the game with marines, etc.

I think that by combining the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and "vanilla" marines into one giant codex, they will increase revenue, as now players who started with marines, and were 'interested' in another marine force can purchase the models needed to make a "dark angels" army. AT the same time, I have suggested in this thread expanding on Chaos, to where Legions get their own book, Renegades get theirs and daemons get the last one.. This means that there would be 6 "power armor" codices carried by GW.

You had also suggested combining Orks and Tyranids, Eldar, DE, and Tau into two overall books... Personally, I think that in no way can Orks and bugs be in the same book, as they are vastly different armies, both in gameplay and in fluff. The Eldar and DE, I can't agree with, but I can "see" a combining, but not with Tau in the mix as well. Again, Tau are much too different from the Eldar and DE.


If my local GW is any indication, there is a very even keel player base here in Germany, as there is regular stock updates from ALL 40k armies, and this is slightly less so for WHFB. To me, if your example did take place, this would alienate a good portion of the local meta for where I am currently, and in fact drive many out of the hobby and game all together.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:If my local GW is any indication, there is a very even keel player base here in Germany, as there is regular stock updates from ALL 40k armies, and this is slightly less so for WHFB. To me, if your example did take place, this would alienate a good portion of the local meta for where I am currently, and in fact drive many out of the hobby and game all together.

I don't think it's just your lfgs, or even just Germany. I think that you're right that combining codexs in general is a bad idea, unless it's in updates like you see in things like Apocalypse or my aforementioned MegaUpdateDex, things which simply expand upon the present books. What benefit would it bring to the community? Really nothing, it would simply upset players who really like a certain Chapter as they would most likely feel like their codex got dumbed down. I play Eldar and my friend who I play regularly with plays Dark Eldar and I can tell you that if they tried to combined the armies into one Codex it would be the ugliest mashup possible, especially if you add in Tau... Minimizing the number of codexs gets up no where in the game but more confusion, fluff being decimated, and GW reducing revenue, and we gain... ???

Renegade Militia

Zweischneid wrote:

DeffDred wrote:Your argument is completely valid.

But Warhammer40k is about the smaller battles in the major wars going on.

An admech army of Skitarii would battle alongside titans but you dont need to feild the titan on the table top. Simply use ordinance barrages to rep the titans fring down onto the feild.

Well, tthey sure tried this approach of "simulating" immersion into a greater battle, for example by giving Landraiders the Deepstrike rule, explicitly to represent their insertion via Thunderhawk Transports. Instead, the player-base reacted with ridicule of flying Landraiders dropping from orbit.

Based on this, it appears one runs the danger of severly overestimating the intelligence and imagination of 40K players by and large, by believing they would be able to conceive action off-the-board represented by short-hand rules and effect-simulation brought to the smaller 40K game.

I agree with you, I don't think it would go over well. And honestly I just couldn't play a game assuming a Reaver titan was off the board blowing my entire army apart. Whether the titan is on the board or not the weapons on a titan are designed for mass destruction. It would be hard to play a smaller game with such powerful weapons. Now you could weaken the weapons considerably but then you might as well just not include them at all.

Zweischneid wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
You suggest merging the Xenos codexs but not the Marine codexs............................

Definitly. Most Marine codexes are popular books that combine a large fraction of players on them. Merging them would kill game-diversity as an ever greater majority of players converges on ever fewer books. Most Xenos-books in contrast bring fewer players to the hobby each. They are thus not very good allocation of the limited GW-resources for keeping the game fresh and fun.

.........

So keeping the game "fresh and fun" includes making several codexs of basically the same thing?

How would merging marine codex's reduce "game diversity" Adding more Xenos, and removing 1 or 2 Marine books, would increase "game diversity" by having more armies to fight against, instead of marine flavor A, B,C,D,E, and F. Marine players get to keep playing Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars...ect, but now they are in the same book, which would help "GW- limited resources" as you say. And all the players (including marine players) get to see if they like the new Xenos codex, and maybe play with that army.

But if you merge the Xenos codexs, that means theirs more than likely going to be less units per army. because you can only use that armies units. But space marines don't have the problem, because they bring most of the same stuff to the fight anyway. That would reduce "game diversity" and make the game into an even more literal MarineHammer 40000k.

Genestealer Cult
Mechanicus
Traitor Guard/Heretics

If anything, something non-marine.

bombboy1252 wrote:
So keeping the game "fresh and fun" includes making several codexs of basically the same thing?

How would merging marine codex's reduce "game diversity" Adding more Xenos, and removing 1 or 2 Marine books, would increase "game diversity" by having more armies to fight against, instead of marine flavor A, B,C,D,E, and F. Marine players get to keep playing Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars...ect, but now they are in the same book, which would help "GW- limited resources" as you say. And all the players (including marine players) get to see if they like the new Xenos codex, and maybe play with that army.

But if you merge the Xenos codexs, that means theirs more than likely going to be less units per army. because you can only use that armies units. But space marines don't have the problem, because they bring most of the same stuff to the fight anyway. That would reduce "game diversity" and make the game into an even more literal MarineHammer 40000k.

/shrug. Orks and Nids seem much the same to me too. A bunch of organic-looking models, painted green or painted purple, that rush across the board and try to chop you. The claim they bring more diversity to the game than.. say.. a book with an army build around a core of jump infantry vs. a book build around a core of unit-counts-as-psykers, two markedly different game aspects, seems preposterous once you remove the "in-game" drivel of stories added to it.

Codex: Slann

Its one of the older races mentioned as far back as Rogue Trader, but never developed. GW is a little wary of bringing another WHFB race into 40k, it most likely will never happen, but since the 'Old Ones' have always had such a fluff place in 40k, it wouldn't hurt to bring the reptilians kicking and hissing into 40k.

Zweischneid wrote:

/shrug. Orks and Nids seem much the same to me too. A bunch of organic-looking models, painted green or painted purple, that rush across the board and try to chop you. The claim they bring more diversity to the game than.. say.. a book with an army build around a core of jump infantry vs. a book build around a core of unit-counts-as-psykers, two markedly different game aspects, seems preposterous once you remove the "in-game" drivel of stories added to it.

I am not sure if you are trolling here or just blinded by your love of bland space marines. You just said that marines with jump packs vs marines with psychic powers makes a more diverse game than the entirety of the tyranid codex and model line vs the ork codex and model line. If that were true, we wouldn't have all the xenos codexes, just 5 marine books and 1 alien book. Sounds like a fun and diverse game to me!

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:

I am not sure if you are trolling here or just blinded by your love of bland space marines.

Zweischneid wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
So keeping the game "fresh and fun" includes making several codexs of basically the same thing?

How would merging marine codex's reduce "game diversity" Adding more Xenos, and removing 1 or 2 Marine books, would increase "game diversity" by having more armies to fight against, instead of marine flavor A, B,C,D,E, and F. Marine players get to keep playing Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars...ect, but now they are in the same book, which would help "GW- limited resources" as you say. And all the players (including marine players) get to see if they like the new Xenos codex, and maybe play with that army.

But if you merge the Xenos codexs, that means theirs more than likely going to be less units per army. because you can only use that armies units. But space marines don't have the problem, because they bring most of the same stuff to the fight anyway. That would reduce "game diversity" and make the game into an even more literal MarineHammer 40000k.

/shrug. Orks and Nids seem much the same to me too. A bunch of organic-looking models, painted green or painted purple, that rush across the board and try to chop you. The claim they bring more diversity to the game than.. say.. a book with an army build around a core of jump infantry vs. a book build around a core of unit-counts-as-psykers, two markedly different game aspects, seems preposterous once you remove the "in-game" drivel of stories added to it.

Orks = Insane, bloodthirsty fungi that need to fight to survive. They build vehicles and guns out of junk and scrap metal, and use it to punishing effects. Usually able to field well over a thousand boyz to a "Propa fight". If enough boyz gather together, and a Warboss is strong enough to lead them, they go on a galaxy wide genocide know as a "Waaagh!".

Tyranids = Bloodthirsty alien monstrosities led by a single entity....the Hivemind. Insect-like in appearance, the Tyranids can rapidly evolve at an alarming rate.

Marines = Genetically engineered super soldiers, the last hope for humanity. The space marines fight in the name of the god Emperor of mankind to purge the, the mutant, and the heretic alike. Split in half at the time of the heresy, the loyal chapters fight to purge their traitorous "brothers" and the rest of the spawns of Chaos.

Marines 2 = Genetically engineered super soldiers, the last hope for humanity. The space marines fight in the name of the god Emperor of mankind to purge , the mutant, and the heretic alike. Split in half at the time of the heresy, the loyal chapters fight to purge their traitorous "brothers" and the rest of the spawns of Chaos. This chapter likes to use jump packs.

Marines 3 = Genetically engineered super soldiers, the last hope for humanity. The space marines fight in the name of the god Emperor of mankind to purge the mutant, and the heretic alike. Split in half at the time of the heresy, the loyal chapters fight to purge their traitorous "brothers" and the rest of the spawns of Chaos. This chapter thinks their wolves.

Marines 4 = Genetically engineered super soldiers, the last hope for humanity. The space marines fight in the name of the god Emperor of mankind to purge the mutant, and the heretic alike. Split in half at the time of the heresy, the loyal chapters fight to purge their traitorous "brothers" and the rest of the spawns of Chaos. This chapter has a dark secret that no one knows about.

Marines 5 = Genetically engineered super soldiers, the last hope for humanity. The space marines fight in the name of the god Emperor of mankind to purge the mutant, and the heretic alike. Split in half at the time of the heresy, the loyal chapters fight to purge their traitorous "brothers" and the rest of the spawns of Chaos. This chapter is overly religious and and tries extra hard to purge the xenos.

Marines 6 = Genetically engineered super soldiers, the last hope for humanity. The space marines fight in the name of the god Emperor of mankind to purge the mutant and the heretic alike. Split in half at the time of the heresy, the loyal chapters fight to purge their traitorous "brothers" and the rest of the spawns of Chaos. This chapter is very secret and tries extra hard to purge the Daemons of the warp

Do you see a pattern yet?

You have a good point Bom, Xenos should totally get 3 codexs.
Tyranids and Eldar
Orks and Tau
The rest (are there more than 4 armies that aren't Space Marines? I can never remember)

Glad I could be of service.


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*SPESS MEHRINES
Sorry about that typo