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I agree that DE are the best match up to win with ( i said that earlier). Lots of lance weapons to ID them and speed to keep away...

Poison draigo to death.

Its the only list i have had any serious issues with when using my draigo wing

Here is my list for anti draigo.

Coteaz

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

Vindicare

Vindicare

Vindicare

Ok mainly joking, but that's 40 lascannon/multi melta/ heavy flamers.

And with the Vindicare you can take out three units every turn.

Draigo wrote:First off I have never seen necrons eat anyone up lol The best way to beat draigo is just forcing them to make tons of saves.

No, the best way is to spam Str 8 AP 2 shots. Draigowing's strength is its durability, so the counter is to focus heavy fire.

Devil Dog wrote:Vindicare

Vindicare

Vindicare

Not legal.

So drop 2 and get another 10 man monkey squad.

50 LC shots per turn. 25 hit, that's a lot of dead pallies.

I have the same problem with my purifier lists. Paladins are really hard to deal with in general though. I've found distracting them and avoiding them is generally a good way to deal with them. Unfortunately, if you are in a KP mission they become very important targets. In that case, I would just throw everything you can at them.


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I've been kicking around servitors with plasma cannons as an idea to at least soften them up... but it seems iffy.

Devil Dog wrote:Here is my list for anti draigo.

Coteaz

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

Vindicare

Vindicare

Vindicare

Ok mainly joking, but that's 40 lascannon/multi melta/ heavy flamers.

And with the Vindicare you can take out three units every turn.

So how would this work for the jokearo rolls, +9 so basically there special does nothing ?

Assassins are unique. You can't have three Vindicares

Clearly this thread has people who are new or clueless.. 3 vindicares? Only spamming ap2.. lordy lol Even with venom spam making them make 100 +2 saves they will die lol 3 blasterborn venoms will wreck pallys. Silly prob a bunch of the gk are op crowd cause theyre clueless.

Only one Vindicare would be needed. Only needs a couple of shooting phases to break Draigo's shield, and I promise the GK player will be far less likely to plant AP 1/2 wounds on him once his inv is gone.

Draigo wrote:Clearly this thread has people who are new or clueless.. 3 vindicares? Only spamming ap2.. lordy lol Even with venom spam making them make 100 +2 saves they will die lol 3 blasterborn venoms will wreck pallys. Silly prob a bunch of the gk are op crowd cause theyre clueless.

Statistically 9 Venoms firing 12 shots each at a fully wound allocated 10 man unit of Paladins with Apothecary will on average deal 3 wounds. So no, Poison weapons are not the way forward. However Blasterborn combined with Dark Lances are. Bear in mind though that you are probably contending with a 3 + cover save in most cases (thanks to the mandatory Librarian) so it's not necessarily a straightforward tabling. Would be rough on the Paladins though.

Draigo wrote:Clearly this thread has people who are new or clueless. ... Only spamming ap2.. lordy lol ... Silly prob a bunch of the gk are op crowd cause theyre clueless.

Yeah, it's not the AP2 that matters, it's the Str 8+ shots. The AP2 is nice because it'll deny armour saves, but the point is that you can't wound allocate against Str 8+.

Lukus83 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Clearly this thread has people who are new or clueless.. 3 vindicares? Only spamming ap2.. lordy lol Even with venom spam making them make 100 +2 saves they will die lol 3 blasterborn venoms will wreck pallys. Silly prob a bunch of the gk are op crowd cause theyre clueless.

Statistically 9 Venoms firing 12 shots each at a fully wound allocated 10 man unit of Paladins with Apothecary will on average deal 3 wounds. So no, Poison weapons are not the way forward. However Blasterborn combined with Dark Lances are. Bear in mind though that you are probably contending with a 3 + cover save in most cases (thanks to the mandatory Librarian) so it's not necessarily a straightforward tabling. Would be rough on the Paladins though.

So your assuming the only way draigo is played is a 10 man squad with apothecary? Look on dakka and find me more then 5 such lists or your analysis is best case scenario for gk not what youd actually face.

Well, if you don't want to go out and buy a DE army, you can just max out your GK cheap vehicles (rhinos) with cheap minsized squads--even take a henchman army if you have the models--and tank shock him over and over again until he breaks and runs.

Others have mentioned it as a last resort, but I use tank shock as my primary offensive tactic with Eldar and IG against paladin units with FNP, especially if Draigo is in there too. It's not worth the trouble of trying to shoot them when you can just chase them off the board.

Before ten people who don't understand the tank shock rules jump in with the usual mistakes, here's the technique:

-Only models you run over can make a death or glory attack, so don't run over anybody with a daemon hammer and you're safe from that.
-If you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they fall back again immediately automatically with no chance to rally. So you don't have to wait around for them to go off the board--just hit a falling back unit again, and you can chase them all the way off in a single turn.

The odds of a Ld9 unit failing a leadership test are about 9%, about 6% for the Ld10 unit. So throw out five or six tank shocks--or even ten--per turn, and you can table him in a couple of turns without causing a single casualty.

Also tankshocking your opponent off the table a couple times will tend to encourage the Draigowing player to think about a more balanced list.

No I'm not assuming anything. When math-hammering anything out I always like to do it based on the worst possible scenario. Isn't it best to assume the worst and be pleasantly surprised, than do the math in your favour and then get disappointed when things don't work out. I don't run Paladins. I was doing the analysis for your benefit.

And besides taking a 10 man unit isn't uncommon. They tend to come as combat squads though. But it's also possible 1 of those will have the apothecary in. Still only going to do 3 wounds with poison if that's the case.

I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

Draigo wrote:I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

Well you are suggesting that poison weapons do the job...my math proved that it really doesn't. Even if you lose the Apothecary you do 6 wounds...with 9 Venoms. That's pretty much all the transports a DE list can field and comes in at 585pts if they have the extra Splinter cannon. Not very efficient.

Templates vs a decent general are not really worrisome. 40mm bases and 2" coherency means 2 models will be hit on a perfect scatter roll. High Strength shooting does damage whether it's a 5 or 10 man unit. Paladins are Paladins. They will draw the high Strength shots.

necron99 wrote:Hello fellow dakkanaughts!

I have a friend at my FLGS who plays a 2k Draigo list. Usually two units - Draigo, paladins and a librarian and a unit of ten terminators plus an optional unit like a dreadknight or a vindicare/techmarine. I play Grey Knights, too. Usually a crowe list with purifiers. Is there a 2k army out there that plays well against a Draigo list in your standard 40k missions?

A Purifier Spam army is going to have a tough time against a good Draigo Wing player. If you are playing Objectives, it is winnable. If it is kill points, it is going to be really rough. The main problem is the lack of S8 AP2 weaponry in the army.

I have beaten Draigo Wing everytime I have played it using my Chaos Daemons (Fatecrusher build). Even with a Librarian running Dark Excommunication, it is still not enough.

With Chaos Space Marines, I win about 50% of the time. Lash of Submission + Obliterators + Vindicator + a lot of melta guns do ugly things to Paladins.

There is a Death Wing player at my local venue that usually beats Draigo Wing as well. He has Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers on all of his terminators, and the 3++ save usually tips the balance in his favor.

I could also see a Leafblower IG style army giving Draigo Wing fits; if they spammed Medusa's (ST10 AP2 pie plates).

I would also foresee a Dark Eldar Venom Spam build being very rough on Draigo Wing as well.

DE are a tough match up, but I don't think poison has a lot to do with it. Massed blasters and Dark lances are what does the trick. Combined with the fact that these threats are all MSU and move quickly, Draigowing has a hard time eliminating these before they deal critical damage.

your best bet if you play grey knights is to just spam draigo with paladins & purifiers or the devastator equivalent of the grey knights

with my csm army i usually spam him with my raptor squads or havoc's & obliterators depending on the build i bring to the table

Lukus83 wrote:DE are a tough match up, but I don't think poison has a lot to do with it. Massed blasters and Dark lances are what does the trick. Combined with the fact that these threats are all MSU and move quickly, Draigowing has a hard time eliminating these before they deal critical damage.

Absolutely. My 2,000 point DE Venom Spam build can fire 11 Dark Lances, 15 blasters, and 108 Splinter Cannon shot's per turn. Any failed save on any of the 26 S8 AP2 shots is a dead Paladin (unless Draigo eat's one, which won't matter much), and 108 Splinter Cannon shot's will likely kill a few more in a 5 turn game.

When you are taking 10-15 Paladin's in a typical 2,000 point Draigo Wing build, the odd's are not in the Grey Knight player's favor.

That's why we said that a "pure" Draigo wing is not a competitive list. They do need some back up, such as psyflemen, henchmen, gkss or purifiers...and sometimes a vehicle.

apple1988218 wrote:That's why we said that a "pure" Draigo wing is not a competitive list. They do need some back up, such as psyflemen, henchmen, gkss or purifiers...and sometimes a vehicle.

I have a friend that plays like that. In 2,000 points he runs Draigo, Librarian, 10 Paladins, Purifiers (forget how many), and 2x Psyflemen. It works really well.
I give him absolute fits with my Chaos Daemons (Fatecrusher), but he usually beats my Chaos Space Marines about 50% of the time, and I have been playing 40K since 3rd edition.

Lukus83 wrote:

Draigo wrote:I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

Well you are suggesting that poison weapons do the job...my math proved that it really doesn't. Even if you lose the Apothecary you do 6 wounds...with 9 Venoms. That's pretty much all the transports a DE list can field and comes in at 585pts if they have the extra Splinter cannon. Not very efficient.

Templates vs a decent general are not really worrisome. 40mm bases and 2" coherency means 2 models will be hit on a perfect scatter roll. High Strength shooting does damage whether it's a 5 or 10 man unit. Paladins are Paladins. They will draw the high Strength shots.

Then I want your math to come tell the die in my games they need to listen to you and I should easily crush that silly venom spam. I do not care what your math says. It does not do anything in the ACTUAL game. Unless you are using an online dice roller there is not math involved. There are dips in the terrain.. the board does not sit flat. The dice can bump into things. There is nothing your formula can do to account for these things. Thats why math uses variable and unknown values.

apple1988218 wrote:

Draigo wrote:First off I have never seen necrons eat anyone up lol The best way to beat draigo is just forcing them to make tons of saves . Put a few wounds on then let cf and psykout help a 10 man squad to finish the job assuming the die are your friends that game. But why would anyone run a purifier spam of 60 purifiers without transport? haha you beggin to die? If you didnt et to shoot first you would take massive casualties before firing a single shot. lol Draigowing is a sturdy army for now but they have issues with massive amounts of shots.. You will eventually began to fail even 2s and with such a low model count you will feel it.

Q:"But why would anyone run a purifier spam of 60 purifiers without transport?"
A: Just to defeat OP's friend XDXDXDXDXDXD
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen necrons eat a Draigo wing up.
1750 game
Game 1:
Draigo, libby and 10 paladins DS, killed 1 doomsday ark.

Stalker shoot TL gauss cannon, hit, marked, Draigo passed the save;
doomsday ark shoot the big gun, 10 wounds, Draigo lost 1 wound and 2 paladins killed.(with 3+ cover from the shrouding)
5 lancetek shoots, 5 wounds, Draigo passed the save and 2 paladins killed.
5 lancetek shoots, 5 wounds, Draigo lost 1 wound and 1 paladins killed.

next turn, the whole death star has been killed.

Game 2:
Draigo, libby and 10 paladins deploy on the table, move 6" and run first turn.
Necron player move 6" back and shoot, killed some paladins

repeat

3 turns after, Draigo and paladins gone.


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Happygrunt wrote:I prefer vindicators to beat paladins, but then again, I always prefer vindicators to beat anything. S10 AP 2 kills them good.

If they DS to the map, vindicators are good to kill them.

If they deploy as a line on the map, no.

Draigo-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"...... big blaster= A1 or A2 in this situation, and Draigo will protect them from single S10 AP2 wound.

"If they deploy as a line on the map, no. "

That is where Lash of Submission comes in. Lash of Submission + Vindicator or Obliterators has won me several games against Draigowing.


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Draigo wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:

Draigo wrote:I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

Well you are suggesting that poison weapons do the job...my math proved that it really doesn't. Even if you lose the Apothecary you do 6 wounds...with 9 Venoms. That's pretty much all the transports a DE list can field and comes in at 585pts if they have the extra Splinter cannon. Not very efficient.

Templates vs a decent general are not really worrisome. 40mm bases and 2" coherency means 2 models will be hit on a perfect scatter roll. High Strength shooting does damage whether it's a 5 or 10 man unit. Paladins are Paladins. They will draw the high Strength shots.

Then I want your math to come tell the die in my games they need to listen to you and I should easily crush that silly venom spam. I do not care what your math says. It does not do anything in the ACTUAL game. Unless you are using an online dice roller there is not math involved. There are dips in the terrain.. the board does not sit flat. The dice can bump into things. There is nothing your formula can do to account for these things. Thats why math uses variable and unknown values.

It can do a lot once the Paladins have been whittled down a few models by Dark Lances or Blasters. If you start shooting Splinter Cannons at full 5 man or 10 man Paladin squads, no, it is unlikely to remove the squads by the end of the game.
However, take out 2-3 of those Paladins with ID weapons, and suddenly they can only allocate wounds over a few models. At that point, yes, massive waves of Splinter Cannon fire are a major threat.

As the foremost Draigowing expert I will tell you that a well built Grey Knight army that is centered around 10 paladins is very formidable no matter what you are using against it.

Remember that even though all of these armies that people here are talking about have all these nice tools to kill paladins, they are killing whatever can kill them right back. So do not think that it will be all that easy to get rid of them. Of course if you play against bad players, like most of the people here who are offering insights, you can do almost anything and win.

Now as far at the OP answer goes you have the right tools to beat him. No, the answer is not to go out and buy a Dark Eldar or Necron army, but the hardest army for Paladins to beat is Grey Knights.

If you have stormravens (or land raiders) you are going to be faster than him and you can get the charge. Whoever assaults in a Grey Knight on Grey Knight game wins. The reason why is with psych out grenades you get to strike first. So take your mindstrike missiles and snipe his librarian and take it out with some perils of the warp tests. You do not want a psychic hood around blocking your psychic powers. You then assault him with 10 purifiers and a librarian. Do not use a lot of heavy weapons in your purifier squad because you will need to swing a lot of force weapons. Then your librarian casts Hammerhand and Might of Titans to crank you up to strength 6, and have at it! Then you cast force weapon from the purifier squad to insta-kill them. You are testing on LD8, so you have a good chance at getting it off (if there are any dreadnaughts nearby be sure to take them out or your force weapon test will be on LD5).

Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

Blackmoor wrote:

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

I do not know since I do not know the pts used, scenario, board, or any other information. I have never lost or been tabled yet(have tied a de player quite a few times though) but I cant say anyone is bad if I was not witness.

Blackmoor wrote:As the foremost Draigowing expert I will tell you that a well built Grey Knight army that is centered around 10 paladins is very formidable no matter what you are using against it.

Remember that even though all of these armies that people here are talking about have all these nice tools to kill paladins, they are killing whatever can kill them right back. So do not think that it will be all that easy to get rid of them. Of course if you play against bad players, like most of the people here who are offering insights, you can do almost anything and win.

Now as far at the OP answer goes you have the right tools to beat him. No, the answer is not to go out and buy a Dark Eldar or Necron army, but the hardest army for Paladins to beat is Grey Knights.

If you have stormravens (or land raiders) you are going to be faster than him and you can get the charge. Whoever assaults in a Grey Knight on Grey Knight game wins. The reason why is with psych out grenades you get to strike first. So take your mindstrike missiles and snipe his librarian and take it out with some perils of the warp tests. You do not want a psychic hood around blocking your psychic powers. You then assault him with 10 purifiers and a librarian. Do not use a lot of heavy weapons in your purifier squad because you will need to swing a lot of force weapons. Then your librarian casts Hammerhand and Might of Titans to crank you up to strength 6, and have at it! Then you cast force weapon from the purifier squad to insta-kill them. You are testing on LD8, so you have a good chance at getting it off (if there are any dreadnaughts nearby be sure to take them out or your force weapon test will be on LD5).

There's only one risk: storm raven/LR can only give you about 12"+2"(base)+6orD6"(charge) range, that means if you can charge him, your vehicle was in 24" of your enemy last turn.
If he failed to destroy your vehicle, your win; if he destroyed your vehicle, it will become a shooting game----whoever move into 12" range first will be charged by his enemy.

But still, this is one of the best plans, and that's what I do when facing with another Draigo wing player. The only thing different is that I put Draigo and 5 paladins in the raven