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NoArmorSave wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:Thats a good point on the AP2 issue. My worry with demos is they must be within 24", which happens to be psycannon range, and a rending shot will at least shake a demo.

That is why I like Medusas. They have a 36" range (48" with Bastion Shells), ST10 AP2. You can field 3 in a squad.

You would need to give them cammo netting and use other vehicles (Chimeras) to control line of site to them. If they are ever exposed to the Psyrflemen, they are
done. However, they only need 1 turn of shooting to do massive damage.

Yes, demos have to get in to psycannon range, but they're front AV14, and even four Paladin psycannons will average only 1.18 pens on them in a turn. That's soaking a lot of firepower (including psybolts that he probably paid for), for a 1 in 3 chance of destroying one tank. A squadron of 3 Demolishers will still be firing off at least one and probably two shots next turn. And Psyflemen? They can barely scratch Demolishers.

You can also position your Demolisher between 30" and 36" away to ensure the alpha strike. The Paladins move forward (so they're over 24" and under 30"), then you move forward into range and blast them. It takes some eyeballin, but it can work.

A hidden benefit of using Medusas is that they are not barrage weapons, and so they roll for multiple blasts like normal. This means that if the first shot scatters far away, the whole squadron's shooting isn't compromised. It also goes without saying that AV12 is just as good as AV14 when the enemy can't hit you at all.

In the end, it depends on your army composition. I would probably take Demolishers in a foot list and Medusas in a mech list.

I love to use an outflanking NDK to trash enemy IDF.

"the foremost Draigo Wing expert"..this is hilarious.. almost all these hate posts have degenerated into this kinda stuff. Glad I'm a dakka nerd. Nice to get a good laugh here and there. A sense if humour, and these posts are great comedy relief.

Kill it with Gauss works all the time 64% of the time.

MSU won't really work so you'll need to beef up the squads a bit or charge them in together, otherwise you're done for!

NAS sounds far too confident in his own abilities vs. the Grey Knights for someone who cannot offer up any real credentials. I recently played Clauss, who is a high caliber tournament player, with my version of Draigowing. The entire matchup was an uphill battle for him as I was able to shoot down most of the threats before they were able to get a charge. Any smart player is going to kite the Blood Crushers as best as he can whilst shooting down the Fateweaver and then whittling down the strength of the other threats. How on earth are you ever going to get a second turn charge? Seriously? I would love to see NAS and Blackmoor play a Vassal game. I am pretty sure NAS would suffer his "first" defeat at the hands of Grey Knights. Hell, I don't even think it'd be close. That Fatecrusher list is absolutely terrible. Why would anyone run a list that has such terrible matchups (DE, Eldar). Please, please, set up a game with Blackmoor NAS. I would love to be entertained.

Best way to beat Draigo, IMO, would be to either overwhelm with Tank Shocks or to knock out all supporting elements and kite the Deathstar unit. Don't try to out hammer the hammer, just play the missions and you should be fine. I've played against Draigo a few times with my Space Wolves, both in tournaments and in a casual setting. If you play the mission and don't attempt to destroy the Deathstar you can often times pull out a close win. Granted, if the player is someone like Blackmoor it'll probably take a bit more skill.

Hhhmm and here I thought this thread was dead a nd buried.. :/ The problem with most draigowing lists is they do not have enough on the board. No one questions it's toughness. Draigo, Libby and 10 paladins is over 1k pts.

Of course it is hard to kill but that also leaves very little else they can have below 2k pts. In a pitched battled c&c theyre going to be hard pressed to win vs a good opponent. As you will see many draigowing lists are gimmicky and their main strength is kp denial not objective based games.

Draigo wrote:Hhhmm and here I thought this thread was dead a nd buried.. :/ The problem with most draigowing lists is they do not have enough on the board. No one questions it's toughness. Draigo, Libby and 10 paladins is over 1k pts.

Of course it is hard to kill but that also leaves very little else they can have below 2k pts. In a pitched battled c&c theyre going to be hard pressed to win vs a good opponent. As you will see many draigowing lists are gimmicky and their main strength is kp denial not objective based games.

Do you follow competitive 40k? Doesn't sound like you do. Blackmoor plays a Paladin list and does very very well with it. Hell, he did really well at the NOVA which plays objective based missions that favor troop-heavy armies AND he still did very well. Draigo offers flexibility in his ability to make almost every unit in the list a scoring threat.

Is Draigowing perfect? No. Is it the most rock solid TAC list? No. But out of the major "hammer" lists it seems to have the most flexibility and durability, thus making it a good choice.

L Valx wrote: Do you follow competitive 40k? Doesn't sound like you do. Blackmoor plays a Paladin list and does very very well with it. Hell, he did really well at the NOVA which plays objective based missions that favor troop-heavy armies AND he still did very well. Draigo offers flexibility in his ability to make almost every unit in the list a scoring threat.

Is Draigowing perfect? No. Is it the most rock solid TAC list? No. But out of the major "hammer" lists it seems to have the most flexibility and durability, thus making it a good choice.

This is true, it'll be very hard to nab a win against this list even in objective games, There is only really 1 game type which will give you the best chance and that is Seize ground, with the durability of the Grey Knights i'd say capture and control would be out of the question and annhialate isn't really where you want to be unless you have A LOT of AP2 fire, just hope you get lots of objectives and try and stay out of range while pounding them from afar. Dark Eldar are a good example of this as on a 6x4 table moving 12" and then firing 36" to stay out of range of their guns is pivotal.

While I appreciate LVaix's sentiments, this thread was dead ...

Oh well sometimes they have a way of coming back to life.

LValx wrote:

Draigo wrote:Hhhmm and here I thought this thread was dead a nd buried.. :/ The problem with most draigowing lists is they do not have enough on the board. No one questions it's toughness. Draigo, Libby and 10 paladins is over 1k pts.

Of course it is hard to kill but that also leaves very little else they can have below 2k pts. In a pitched battled c&c theyre going to be hard pressed to win vs a good opponent. As you will see many draigowing lists are gimmicky and their main strength is kp denial not objective based games.

Do you follow competitive 40k? Doesn't sound like you do. Blackmoor plays a Paladin list and does very very well with it. Hell, he did really well at the NOVA which plays objective based missions that favor troop-heavy armies AND he still did very well. Draigo offers flexibility in his ability to make almost every unit in the list a scoring threat.

Is Draigowing perfect? No. Is it the most rock solid TAC list? No. But out of the major "hammer" lists it seems to have the most flexibility and durability, thus making it a good choice.

Oh I hear about that one guy backmoor. Didn't you hear he's the foremost draigowing player? Whoop di do one guy and suddenly the list matters? He also has strikes, and other stuff AT 2000. Did you not read my post? I said below 2k. Good god people..

Draigo wrote:

LValx wrote:

Draigo wrote:Hhhmm and here I thought this thread was dead a nd buried.. :/ The problem with most draigowing lists is they do not have enough on the board. No one questions it's toughness. Draigo, Libby and 10 paladins is over 1k pts.

Of course it is hard to kill but that also leaves very little else they can have below 2k pts. In a pitched battled c&c theyre going to be hard pressed to win vs a good opponent. As you will see many draigowing lists are gimmicky and their main strength is kp denial not objective based games.

Do you follow competitive 40k? Doesn't sound like you do. Blackmoor plays a Paladin list and does very very well with it. Hell, he did really well at the NOVA which plays objective based missions that favor troop-heavy armies AND he still did very well. Draigo offers flexibility in his ability to make almost every unit in the list a scoring threat.

Is Draigowing perfect? No. Is it the most rock solid TAC list? No. But out of the major "hammer" lists it seems to have the most flexibility and durability, thus making it a good choice.

Oh I hear about that one guy backmoor. Didn't you hear he's the foremost draigowing player? Whoop di do one guy and suddenly the list matters? He also has strikes, and other stuff AT 2000. Did you not read my post? I said below 2k. Good god people..

Draigo, when you beat Blackmoor in a tournament is when you'll have license to gak-talk him. Yes the list matters. It's a popular build because it's fun, financially affordable to new players, and provides an interesting challenge in competitive play for advanced players. Regarding your 'below 2k' complaint; the nova invitational 2011 was a 1,750 point tournament, and blackmoor finished with his draigowing, just behind Tony Kopach.

Actually I can say whatever I like junk. It was his own declaration of being number 1 junk so reciting that take it for what it is. I do not need to anyones permission. No one has needed permission on this site to bad mouth me on other boards so I don't think the others on this site got the memo of your proposed rules.

I also hardly find one guy placing well with the gimmickly list hardly proof its all that good. I mean matchups also could play a factor. But I'm not going to debate his games since wasn't there.

Chill out man. Blackmoor was kidding around when he said it. It's a great army.

Draigo wrote:Actually I can say whatever I like junk. It was his own declaration of being number 1 junk so reciting that take it for what it is. I do not need to anyones permission. No one has needed permission on this site to bad mouth me on other boards so I don't think the others on this site got the memo of your proposed rules.

I also hardly find one guy placing well with the gimmickly list hardly proof its all that good. I mean matchups also could play a factor. But I'm not going to debate his games since wasn't there.

Dude Just Chill Out, It's a fun list and it's quite effective.

The list, IMO, is definitely not the strongest grey knight build. But it seems to me that with a good build and competent play it can be very dangerous. It is also attractive just for the fact that it is one of the few hammers that can be played in the current meta.

I can say whatever I want! You can't stop me because it's the internet! Don't tread on me!

Waaaaaah!

In all seriousness, the list is far from gimmicky, and the complaint that Blackmoor's list contains other stuff is silly, because that's what makes it a real army list and not a gimmick. His support units are carefully chosen to complement the paladin deathstar, and don't rely on spam to do their job.

It's certainly not the strongest GK build, and the reason Blackmoor's list runs so well is because it doesn't depend on the paladins 100%, even if they are the lynchpin of the army. As was brought up in another thread, the list depends on synergy, which I have a great deal of respect for. And as Junk said, running Draigowing is a fun and interesting challenge.

Roboute wrote:I can say whatever I want! You can't stop me because it's the internet! Don't tread on me!

Waaaaaah!

In all seriousness, the list is far from gimmicky, and the complaint that Blackmoor's list contains other stuff is silly, because that's what makes it a real army list and not a gimmick. His support units are carefully chosen to complement the paladin deathstar, and don't rely on spam to do their job.

It's certainly not the strongest GK build, and the reason Blackmoor's list runs so well is because it doesn't depend on the paladins 100%, even if they are the lynchpin of the army. As was brought up in another thread, the list depends on synergy, which I have a great deal of respect for. And as Junk said, running Draigowing is a fun and interesting challenge.

^case in point.

I also mentioned draigowing below 2k was not very good but most failed to notice that as well because they wanted to latch onto the blackmoor thing. But carry on as you were with no actual points of how draigowing is any good below 2k and come be knights in the defense of an arrogant post.

i still think draigowing is not as competetive as other builds. too few units, with not enough long range AT fire. armies that have more troops, more units, speed, longer range weapons all have an edge.

i played a draigowing player yesterday with my DE venomspam list and had him done top of turn 4. simply because forcing all those saves on a single unit turn after turn whittled him down, and he couldnt put up enough firepower to remove a significant portion of my army in a single turn. he had 2 units of pallys, draigo, libby and some psyflemen, and in the end he had 4 pallys and draigo with a single wound left standing. i had lost 3 of my 5 warrior venoms, a ravager had a gun knocked off, and 2 of my 5 man warrior teams were removed. (one died in blast, the other was in process of running away with 1 guy left) my blasterborn all untouched, wyches took 4 of 9 in casaulaties, .and the beasts unit took some fire.

cant speak to the level of skill the guy had, since it was my first game against him, but he seemed competant enough, and knew his rules so i assume he was at least avg.

Draigo wrote:^case in point.

I also mentioned draigowing below 2k was not very good but most failed to notice that as well because they wanted to latch onto the blackmoor thing. But carry on as you were with no actual points of how draigowing is any good below 2k and come be knights in the defense of an arrogant post.

It's been mentioned at least twice that Blackmoor was being tongue in cheek about the foremost Draigowing expert thing.

It's also been pointed out that his Draigowing has performed well at 1750, in a very competitive environment.

I don't think anyone's expecting Draigowing to be good at 1500 or below, at least not in the 10-man-draigo-libby deathstar sense. I don't think that's a flaw in the list, because it's pretty obvious and I don't think anyone aims to play a Draigowing at 1000 points.

So what was your point, exactly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthSpader wrote:i still think draigowing is not as competetive as other builds. too few units, with not enough long range AT fire. armies that have more troops, more units, speed, longer range weapons all have an edge.

i played a draigowing player yesterday with my DE venomspam list and had him done top of turn 4. simply because forcing all those saves on a single unit turn after turn whittled him down, and he couldnt put up enough firepower to remove a significant portion of my army in a single turn. he had 2 units of pallys, draigo, libby and some psyflemen, and in the end he had 4 pallys and draigo with a single wound left standing. i had lost 3 of my 5 warrior venoms, a ravager had a gun knocked off, and 2 of my 5 man warrior teams were removed. (one died in blast, the other was in process of running away with 1 guy left) my blasterborn all untouched, wyches took 4 of 9 in casaulaties, .and the beasts unit took some fire.

cant speak to the level of skill the guy had, since it was my first game against him, but he seemed competant enough, and knew his rules so i assume he was at least avg.

How many points were you playing? DE is a bad match-up for Draigowing, particularly at lower points.

This guy's list sounds like exactly what I was talking about earlier. Two 5 man paladin units, draigo, a libby and some psyflemen aren't a well-rounded army, and a DE army could run circles around them. I assume that his psyflemen did most of the work against you. The librarian isn't nearly as effective in a 5-man squad as a 10-man squad, and that army is slow with little synergy.

2000 pts. i dont have his exact list but he ran 2 untis of pallys with about 7-9 in each squad, then attached characters. he had 3 psyflemen dreads.

and yea the psyflemen did the majority of damage, but i managed to drop 1 first turn and knock a gun off the 2nd, second turn finished off the damaged one (via 2 wep destroyed and an immob result) i also stunned the ever loving bejesus out of the 3rd. - wich passed the check of course, but next turn it went down after it knocked one of my ravagers guns off and stunned it into next week) meanwhile blasters and splinter fire into a single pally unit with libby and they go down over 2 turns, start of 3rd blaster and splinter fire direct to draigo and to his credit the unit lasted much longer due to draigo absoarbing blaster hits, but sheer mass of firepower took its toll. each venom was doing about 5 wounds, with about 1 unsaved wound each. although a lucky venom (wich gets a shiney badge now) managed 10 hits, 8 wounds and put 5 unsaved wounds on the squad... GK not happy about all the 1's on that batch of saves... lol. so dice kind of had a major impact on the game in that i was doing rather significant damage to his units and getting nice damage rolls on vehicles, whereas he was having trouble even getting past armor, and was failing alot of saves. but still, the only thing that really fired all game was his dreads, and then when i got close with blasters he was able to shoot at some venoms.

DE are going to be a tough match-up. I did play the winner of the west coast 'Ard Boyz finals in the semi- finals and I ended up tying his dark Eldar. If you check my blog in my signature my last post was some tips on playing against DE.

Draigowing does lose a little power under 2000 points, and I have the Bay Area Open and Adepticon coming up at 1750 and 1850 points respectively do we will see how I do.

Draigowing is not invincible, I played a guy who plays my Nova Open Draigowing with my foot Eldar last weekend and beat him (it was my old tournament army against my new one). That being said, Draigowing is a very good army and presents a lot of hard matchups.

Draigo wrote:First off I have never seen necrons eat anyone up lol The best way to beat draigo is just forcing them to make tons of saves . Put a few wounds on then let cf and psykout help a 10 man squad to finish the job assuming the die are your friends that game. But why would anyone run a purifier spam of 60 purifiers without transport? haha you beggin to die? If you didnt et to shoot first you would take massive casualties before firing a single shot. lol Draigowing is a sturdy army for now but they have issues with massive amounts of shots.. You will eventually began to fail even 2s and with such a low model count you will feel it.

/lol no they don't it takes 792 lasgun shots to kill 1 paladin so about 1980pts to kill a single 55pts model
Playing Draigowing is like setting 40k to easy or playing a '' Blood Deathknight in WOW
i think you should just play space hulk since terminators in that are Invincible also and you opponent stands no chance of winning

junk wrote:
Draigo, when you beat Blackmoor in a tournament is when you'll have license to gak-talk him. Yes the list matters. It's a popular build because it's fun, financially affordable to new players, and provides an interesting challenge in competitive play for advanced players. Regarding your 'below 2k' complaint; the nova invitational 2011 was a 1,750 point tournament, and blackmoor finished with his draigowing, just behind Tony Kopach.

I think it's junk too. Blackmoor's one win don't prove anything. He also said footdar is competitive; I say it's crap.

Come back to me when he wins tournaments consistently with it.

Now if you tell me Tony Kopach is a talented player, I ll agree with you. He places well in competitive tournaments consistently.

Blackmoor has placed consistently in major tournaments for over ten years now. Is this thread about Draigowing as a competitive army or is it about personal attacks? I prefer the former for discussion.

-666- wrote:Blackmoor has placed consistently in major tournaments for over ten years now. Is this thread about Draigowing as a competitive army or is it about personal attacks? I prefer the former for discussion.

I AM talking about the list, in case you didnt already realize.

Blackmoor placed consistently in major tournaments for over 10 years with draigo wing? REALLY?

Isseyfaran wrote:

-666- wrote:Blackmoor has placed consistently in major tournaments for over ten years now. Is this thread about Draigowing as a competitive army or is it about personal attacks? I prefer the former for discussion.

I AM talking about the list, in case you didnt already realize.

Blackmoor placed consistently in major tournaments for over 10 years with draigo wing? REALLY?

Now this is just trolling, You obviously know that he can't have played with the Draigo wing for 10 years as the GK Codex has only been out for around a year now, so why say that?

The Draigowing is quite a competitive army, it depends on the person that is using it and his choices on supporting it are vital. A person who is new to 40k may be unable to make it competitive but Blackmoor's Draigowing list is really quite effective.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Now this is just trolling, You obviously know that he can't have played with the Draigo wing for 10 years as the GK Codex has only been out for around a year now, so why say that?

The Draigowing is quite a competitive army, it depends on the person that is using it and his choices on supporting it are vital. A person who is new to 40k may be unable to make it competitive but Blackmoor's Draigowing list is really quite effective.

Then it is 666 who have just trolled.

And if a player is able to make a list competitive, then it's because of the player, not the list.

DarthSpader wrote:but sheer mass of firepower took its toll.

Makes me wonder once more why the Apothecary seems to be so commonly overlooked.
Overpriced ? In a classic list I'd agree, but since a Draigowing is putting a lot of eggs in one basket anyway, mitigating one of the basket's three weaknesses looks like an option at least worth considering.

(By three weaknesses I mean weight of fire, anti-tank weapons, and Demolisher Cannons )