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-666- wrote:There are only two armies that can field Stormravens-only gk get the msm... Mirror match advice I don't think is that helpful since typically getting the charge and activating NFW gets the job done.

Except the OP said he runs a Purifier list. Unless he wants to go out and buy 2000 points of DE or Daemons, GK are what he has.

Hyd wrote:If you're fielding a Stormraven, you can also throw them a few Mindstrike missiles before going for the kill, ideally aiming at the libby. With him gone you'll have disabled their psychic defense, which will be instrumental in ensuring your own Hammerhands pass.

Yep, yep, yep...I tried this on Mephiston Lord of Cheese last week. 4 missiles from two storm ravens causing perils do the trick (I don't recall how many it actually took - I know I had some scattering going on but the way I fly my storm chickens, flat out, they only get to fire one weapon per turn anyway).

@Roboute: oh my god you're right! I didn't think they were considered defensive! Ha!

Roboute wrote:Aaaaand segue back to on-topic ....

I did enjoy the suggestion of a Vindicare to snipe away Draigo's 3++ save. This would be particularly important for a Purifier list, because damage would be greatly increased if Draigo can't just tank the one or two psycannon rends from each squad.

Also, as I have in other GK threads, I will shamelessly pimp the Stormraven deathstar as the Purifiers' counter to Draigowing deathstars. While perhaps not the best unit in a TAC list, a Stormraven filled with a LIbrarian, Techmarine with nades and 9 Purifiers with halberds will be able to survive incoming fire with a 3+ cover save and then deliver a heaping helping of smackdown into the Paladins' lap. If you can flat-out your SR into the sweet spot (more than 12" but less than 15" away), you'll have a guaranteed assault next turn if the SR stays mobile. Rad grenades make the Paladins T3 against the Purifiers' S6 or S7, which means they can ID them with impunity. The Purifiers will probably die horribly to the return attacks of Draigo, the Libby and the stave wielder, of course, but they can alpha strike the heck out of the Paladins first, and your deathstar costs half as much as his does.

If you wanted to stray into Henchmen territory, that same Stormraven can be just as effective for even fewer points by filling it with a mix of DCAs and Crusaders. Supported by a Techmarine and Librarian (or Inquisitor if you're feeling cheap), this squad can also achieve ID with S6 vs. T3. Paladins don't like ID. With an Inquisitor, you can get this unit down to just a little over 500 points, giving you enough room to fill the rest of your army out to counter his support units.

Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar. GKs all have assault grenades, so Sanctuary won't impede them, and they have the nade cheese to ID the Paladins, which is huge. It does suffer from the "eggs in one basket" syndrome, but the eggs are in a fairly tough basket in this case.

"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

necron99 wrote:Yep, yep, yep...I tried this on Mephiston Lord of Cheese last week. 4 missiles from two storm ravens causing perils do the trick (I don't recall how many it actually took - I know I had some scattering going on but the way I fly my storm chickens, flat out, they only get to fire one weapon per turn anyway).

A question came up at that game though. I can fire all four missiles in one turn right? I didn't think I would ever want to do that until Meph came along...he was the only psyker threat in a blood angel army I played against.

You certainly can fire all four missiles in one turn. They are four separate one-shot weapons, and they happen to be defensive weapons as well. Thus, you can move 12" and fire them all, in addition to both of your primary weapons (one primary weapon plus PotMS).

Mephiston is the perfect target for mindstrikes too - he's a dangerous psyker with 2+ armor and no Invuln save, who can't be ID'd with high strength and is probably getting a cover save against your AP2 shots. Mindstrikes were built to make Mephiston wet his pants.

NoArmorSave wrote:

"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

I've never played as GK, but I'm curious; why would the unit be mediocre? It's a unit with Initiative 6 NFW attacks for MEQs and multi-wound models, Cleansing Flame for hordes, GK Librarian Psychic powers, and rad grenades, in a tough, Fast transport. What makes it bad? It might not be QUITE as scary as Paladins are, but it doesn't sound like a particularly weak unit by any means. I can't think of an Ork unit that I would toss at it confident of winning, besides Ghazghkull.

NoArmorSave wrote:"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit.

Firstly, I am indeed list tailoring here, because the OP runs a GK list and asked how to beat Draigowing. I did qualify the SR deathstar as not a good choice for a TAC list, not sure what you're trying to do by pointing it out again.

Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step.




Math Hammer!

9 Purifiers (halberds, 1 stave), Librarian (stave) and Techmarine charge Draigo, Librarian and 10 Paladins kitted out for allocation

Mindstrikes kill the Paladins' Librarian (as long as 2 missiles hit, he has a 22% chance to pass at least one re-rolled 5++).
3 Hammerhands go off for the Purifiers (they only need 2).
One Hammerhand goes off for the Paladins (psychic hood will probably block one Hammerhand)
Psychotroke grenades have a variable, possibly devastating effect - I'll ignore these for now
Rad grenades reduce the Paladins to T3
Psyk-out grenades reduce the Paladins to I1

Purifiers attack first with 9 halberds plus the librarian's stave and the techmarine's p-wep, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 13.3 wounds. Let's assume they take 13 - to be generous, 2 on Draigo, 2 on stave, 2 on a sword, 1 on everyone else.
Draigo takes a wound, maybe.
The stave has a 33% chance to suffer Instant Death.
One sword has a 75% chance to suffer ID against two wounds
One sword has a 50% chance to suffer ID against one wound
7 other Paladins each have a 67% chance to suffer ID

On average, about 6 Paladins will die. There's a 67% chance that the banner is gone, reducing the Paladins to 12 attacks back with counter-charge. Draigo might be wounded. Paladins are only S5.

Draigo - 4 attacks, 3.34 hits, 2.78 wounds
Paladins - 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds
Total of 8.11 wounds. One is allocated to the stave, he will probably live, one is allocated to the Librarian, he will live, one is allocated to the Techmarine, he dies, five more Purifiers die.

The Techmarine strikes simultaneously with the Paladins, using his two servo-arms. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, probably allocated on the stave, giving the stave paladin a total 50%-ish chance of dying. We'll assume he lives.

Combat Res: 6 to 12 or 13, in favor of the Purifiers. Paladins make a Ld check against Ld4 (assuming difference of 6), failing 83% of the time. The Purifiers have a Libby, so they can't sweeping advance. The Paladins flee and depending on the distance and the Purifiers' consolidation, might not regroup next turn.


All this doesn't include the overpowered crazy-nades! The Paladins could be sitting on their asses with 1 attack each, the Purifiers could all get re-rolls (mostly wiping the Paladins on the alpha strike), or the Paladins could attack each other. That's a 50% chance of getting a result that makes the combat one-sided.


Aftermath: Librarian, the Purifier stave and 3 halberds live.
Draigo, 4 Paladins live but are probably falling back.

Result (Combat Continues): The Paladin squad will emerge victorious, with Draigo and 1-3 Paladins remaining.
Result (Paladins Don't Regroup): The Paladin squad flees some more and is chased off the table like common Guardsmen.
Result (Paladins Regroup): The Paladin squad finishes off the Purifiers, either through shooting or charging. They still only have 1-3 Paladins left.

So the Paladin squad has been gutted by a total investment of about 650 points by the Purifier player. This leaves another 1350 points to counter 700-ish points of Draigowing support units. Bloodcrushers can't beat that as far as point efficiency goes. You're looking at a minimum investment of Fateweaver + 8 Crushers + (Thirster or another 8 Crushers). Fateweaver and 8 Crushers alone outstrip the SR anti-deathstar.

It's not because Purifiers are so much better than Crushers. They're not. They just have the right tools for the job - mindstrike missiles to snipe the Librarian, assault grenades and psyk-out grenades, rad and crazy-nades, and lots of hammerhand. Crushers have pure mean combat power, which in this case doesn't get them as far.

Edit: Forgot about the servo arm attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I've never played as GK, but I'm curious; why would the unit be mediocre? It's a unit with Initiative 6 NFW attacks for MEQs and multi-wound models, Cleansing Flame for hordes, GK Librarian Psychic powers, and rad grenades, in a tough, Fast transport. What makes it bad? It might not be QUITE as scary as Paladins are, but it doesn't sound like a particularly weak unit by any means. I can't think of an Ork unit that I would toss at it confident of winning, besides Ghazghkull.

It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

I just don't see Purifiers having a good chance versus Paladins to be honest. Sure you can try to tweak the list with henchmen but they have their own problems as well versus Paladins.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit.

Firstly, I am indeed list tailoring here, because the OP runs a GK list and asked how to beat Draigowing. I did qualify the SR deathstar as not a good choice for a TAC list, not sure what you're trying to do by pointing it out again.

Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step.




Math Hammer!

9 Purifiers (halberds, 1 stave), Librarian (stave) and Techmarine charge Draigo, Librarian and 10 Paladins kitted out for allocation

Mindstrikes kill the Paladins' Librarian (as long as 2 missiles hit, he has a 22% chance to pass at least one re-rolled 5++).
3 Hammerhands go off for the Purifiers (they only need 2).
One Hammerhand goes off for the Paladins (psychic hood will probably block one Hammerhand)
Psychotroke grenades have a variable, possibly devastating effect - I'll ignore these for now
Rad grenades reduce the Paladins to T3
Psyk-out grenades reduce the Paladins to I1

Purifiers attack first with 9 halberds plus the librarian's stave and the techmarine's p-wep, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 13.3 wounds. Let's assume they take 13 - to be generous, 2 on Draigo, 2 on stave, 2 on a sword, 1 on everyone else.
Draigo takes a wound, maybe.
The stave has a 33% chance to suffer Instant Death.
One sword has a 75% chance to suffer ID against two wounds
One sword has a 50% chance to suffer ID against one wound
7 other Paladins each have a 67% chance to suffer ID

On average, about 6 Paladins will die. There's a 67% chance that the banner is gone, reducing the Paladins to 12 attacks back with counter-charge. Draigo might be wounded. Paladins are only S5.

Draigo - 4 attacks, 3.34 hits, 2.78 wounds
Paladins - 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds
Total of 8.11 wounds. One is allocated to the stave, he will probably live, one is allocated to the Librarian, he will live, one is allocated to the Techmarine, he dies, five more Purifiers die.

Combat Res: 6 to 12 or 13, in favor of the Purifiers. Paladins make a Ld check against Ld4, failing 83% of the time. The Purifiers have a Libby, so they can't sweeping advance. The Paladins flee and depending on the distance and the Purifiers' consolidation, might not regroup next turn.


All this doesn't include the overpowered crazy-nades! The Paladins could be sitting on their asses with 1 attack each, the Purifiers could all get re-rolls (mostly wiping the Paladins on the alpha strike), or the Paladins could attack each other. That's a 50% chance of getting a result that makes the combat one-sided.


Aftermath: Librarian, the Purifier stave and 3 halberds live.
Draigo, 4 Paladins live but are probably falling back.

Result (Combat Continues): The Paladin squad will emerge victorious, with Draigo and 1-3 Paladins remaining.
Result (Paladins Don't Regroup): The Paladin squad flees some more and is chased off the table like common Guardsmen.
Result (Paladins Regroup): The Paladin squad finishes off the Purifiers, either through shooting or charging. They still only have 1-3 Paladins left.

So the Paladin squad has been gutted by a total investment of about 650 points by the Purifier player. This leaves another 1350 points to counter 700-ish points of Draigowing support units. Bloodcrushers can't beat that as far as point efficiency goes. You're looking at a minimum investment of Fateweaver + 8 Crushers + (Thirster or another 8 Crushers). Fateweaver and 8 Crushers alone outstrip the SR anti-deathstar.

It's not because Purifiers are so much better than Crushers. They're not. They just have the right tools for the job - mindstrike missiles to snipe the Librarian, assault grenades and psyk-out grenades, rad and crazy-nades, and lots of hammerhand. Crushers have pure mean combat power, which in this case doesn't get them as far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I've never played as GK, but I'm curious; why would the unit be mediocre? It's a unit with Initiative 6 NFW attacks for MEQs and multi-wound models, Cleansing Flame for hordes, GK Librarian Psychic powers, and rad grenades, in a tough, Fast transport. What makes it bad? It might not be QUITE as scary as Paladins are, but it doesn't sound like a particularly weak unit by any means. I can't think of an Ork unit that I would toss at it confident of winning, besides Ghazghkull.

It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

"Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit. "

No, I didn't ignore you. I told you, no more Fatecrusher Vs. Draigo Wing discussion in this thread. You choose to continue down that path, and I consider it rude and a waste of the OP's contribution at this point.

"Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step."
"On average, about 6 Paladins will die. "
Isn't that what I said? You are probably going to kill 5-6 Paladins on your initial assault, IF the Paladin Librarian does not have Quicksilver. If the Paladin Librarian has Quicksilver, this whole strategy goes straight into the toilet.

I think it is a nasty Deathstar (not nearly in the same tier as a Paladin Death Star). My main problem with the list is the Stormraven. I just question it's value and point cost, and believe there are much better ways to play Purifiers.
IMO; the best Purifier focused GK lists, run Purifiers in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Think MSU spam.

If your local Meta has a bunch of Draigo Wing players, it may be worth testing to see how it goes. I think the list could be very effective in a lot of cases, but is not optimal for Purifiers.

Besides the Purifier\Techmarine\Stormraven Death Star, what would the rest of the list look like @ 2000 points?

NoArmorSave wrote: Isn't that what I said? You are probably going to kill 5-6 Paladins on your initial assault, IF the Paladin Librarian does not have Quicksilver. If the Paladin Librarian has Quicksilver, this whole strategy goes straight into the toilet.

The librarian gets sniped by the Mindstrike missiles, so him having Quicksilver is kinda worthless.
You did also say,

NoArmorSave wrote:after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power.

Which, according to that mathhammer, would be false.

NoArmorSave wrote:It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

"Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit. "

No, I didn't ignore you. I told you, no more Fatecrusher Vs. Draigo Wing discussion in this thread. You choose to continue down that path, and I consider it rude and a waste of the OP's contribution at this point.

"Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step."
"On average, about 6 Paladins will die. "
Isn't that what I said? You are probably going to kill 5-6 Paladins on your initial assault, IF the Paladin Librarian does not have Quicksilver. If the Paladin Librarian has Quicksilver, this whole strategy goes straight into the toilet.

I think it is a nasty Deathstar (not nearly in the same tier as a Paladin Death Star). My main problem with the list is the Stormraven. I just question it's value and point cost, and believe there are much better ways to play Purifiers.
IMO; the best Purifier focused GK lists, run Purifiers in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Think MSU spam.

If your local Meta has a bunch of Draigo Wing players, it may be worth testing to see how it goes. I think the list could be very effective in a lot of cases, but is not optimal for Purifiers.

Besides the Purifier\Techmarine\Stormraven Death Star, what would the rest of the list look like @ 2000 points?

No, that's not what you said. You said that they would kill 5-6 Paladins, and then die. That is definitely not what would happen. They would kill 6 Paladins, then lose half the squad, then the Paladins would take a Ld test at a huge penalty and run away, possibly off the board if that SR is still functioning next turn. There is a giant difference between those two outcomes.

Your comment about Quicksilver - firstly, the Librarian will be sniped by mindstrike missiles, secondly, Quicksilver only works on the owning player's turn. So it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

We agree that it's a nasty deathstar, and the whole point that it can take on Paladins without being in the same tier as them. We also agree that the SR isn't a super-optimal choice for Purifiers, although I tend to give the SR more credit because I enjoy the mobility and threat range it provides.

As far as the rest of the list, it would probably contain all the staples of an MSU Purifier build - Purifiers in Rhinos or Psybacks, Psyfleman Dreads, Crowe (a bonus for taking the SR is you can still take a transport for the Purifier squad in it, and Crowe can hop in that Rhino or Psyback). Interceptors would also probably feature, sprinkle to taste with stuff like a Vindicare, depending on how competitive you want to get. The key would be to stuff as much firepower as possible into the rest of the list, so that they can clean up everyone but the Paladins in short order. In all honesty, even if Draigo is still kicking around after you've thrown the SR-star at him, you can just toss Crowe in there and watch them both get picked right up off the table.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

"Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit. "

No, I didn't ignore you. I told you, no more Fatecrusher Vs. Draigo Wing discussion in this thread. You choose to continue down that path, and I consider it rude and a waste of the OP's contribution at this point.

"Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step."
"On average, about 6 Paladins will die. "
Isn't that what I said? You are probably going to kill 5-6 Paladins on your initial assault, IF the Paladin Librarian does not have Quicksilver. If the Paladin Librarian has Quicksilver, this whole strategy goes straight into the toilet.

I think it is a nasty Deathstar (not nearly in the same tier as a Paladin Death Star). My main problem with the list is the Stormraven. I just question it's value and point cost, and believe there are much better ways to play Purifiers.
IMO; the best Purifier focused GK lists, run Purifiers in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Think MSU spam.

If your local Meta has a bunch of Draigo Wing players, it may be worth testing to see how it goes. I think the list could be very effective in a lot of cases, but is not optimal for Purifiers.

Besides the Purifier\Techmarine\Stormraven Death Star, what would the rest of the list look like @ 2000 points?

No, that's not what you said. You said that they would kill 5-6 Paladins, and then die. That is definitely not what would happen. They would kill 6 Paladins, then lose half the squad, then the Paladins would take a Ld test at a huge penalty and run away, possibly off the board if that SR is still functioning next turn. There is a giant difference between those two outcomes.

Your comment about Quicksilver - firstly, the Librarian will be sniped by mindstrike missiles, secondly, Quicksilver only works on the owning player's turn. So it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

We agree that it's a nasty deathstar, and the whole point that it can take on Paladins without being in the same tier as them. We also agree that the SR isn't a super-optimal choice for Purifiers, although I tend to give the SR more credit because I enjoy the mobility and threat range it provides.

As far as the rest of the list, it would probably contain all the staples of an MSU Purifier build - Purifiers in Rhinos or Psybacks, Psyfleman Dreads, Crowe (a bonus for taking the SR is you can still take a transport for the Purifier squad in it, and Crowe can hop in that Rhino or Psyback). Interceptors would also probably feature, sprinkle to taste with stuff like a Vindicare, depending on how competitive you want to get. The key would be to stuff as much firepower as possible into the rest of the list, so that they can clean up everyone but the Paladins in short order. In all honesty, even if Draigo is still kicking around after you've thrown the SR-star at him, you can just toss Crowe in there and watch them both get picked right up off the table.

"No, that's not what you said. You said that they would kill 5-6 Paladins, and then die. That is definitely not what would happen. They would kill 6 Paladins, then lose half the squad, then the Paladins would take a Ld test at a huge penalty and run away, possibly off the board if that SR is still functioning next turn. There is a giant difference between those two outcomes."

Fair enough, but don't count those Paladins as out just because they lost that initial assault. If they are able to recover, likely due to other supporting units nearby, they will be a major problem.


" firstly, the Librarian will be sniped by mindstrike missiles, secondly, Quicksilver only works on the owning player's turn. So it doesn't make any difference whatsoever."

How are you going to deal with Shrouding? Unless this has been FAQ'd in some way, Perils of the Warp from the Mindstrikes will each cause a power weapon wound. The Librarian would still be able to take his 3++, and will likely suffer 1 wound after
he re-rolls it (if all 4 hit). You may snipe him, but it is far from certain.


"As far as the rest of the list, it would probably contain all the staples of an MSU Purifier build - Purifiers in Rhinos or Psybacks, Psyfleman Dreads, Crowe (a bonus for taking the SR is you can still take a transport for the Purifier squad in it, and Crowe can hop in that Rhino or Psyback). Interceptors would also probably feature, sprinkle to taste with stuff like a Vindicare, depending on how competitive you want to get. The key would be to stuff as much firepower as possible into the rest of the list, so that they can clean up everyone but the Paladins in short order. In all honesty, even if Draigo is still kicking around after you've thrown the SR-star at him, you can just toss Crowe in there and watch them both get picked right up off the table."

I would actually like to see a final proposed list. A play with a few people that have large collections of Grey Knights. I may just do some playtesting on my own.

I have never lost to any Crowe list with my Draigowing. I have definitely had some close games but seeing Crowe is automatic deficit that right there is usually enough of a margin to win by outright.

Quicksilver is moot in the discussion between purifiers vs draigo.. Its done in the movement phase and psyk out says buh bye power if a libby doesnt shut it down of course. Sheesh experts think they know everything lol

Also why are people mentioning TAC lists? lol He said hes tailoring.

NoArmorSave wrote:Fair enough, but don't count those Paladins as out just because they lost that initial assault. If they are able to recover, likely due to other supporting units nearby, they will be a major problem.

" firstly, the Librarian will be sniped by mindstrike missiles, secondly, Quicksilver only works on the owning player's turn. So it doesn't make any difference whatsoever."

How are you going to deal with Shrouding? Unless this has been FAQ'd in some way, Perils of the Warp from the Mindstrikes will each cause a power weapon wound. The Librarian would still be able to take his 3++, and will likely suffer 1 wound after
he re-rolls it (if all 4 hit). You may snipe him, but it is far from certain.

I would actually like to see a final proposed list. A play with a few people that have large collections of Grey Knights. I may just do some playtesting on my own.

Perils of the Warp aren't just power weapon wounds. They don't count as shooting attacks (So the Librarian couldn't use Shrouding or cover), and the only save possibly is Invuln, which must be re-rolled if successful. Read up in the BRB again - Perils is downright nasty. A 5++ that needs to re-roll successes gives just a 1/9 chance of saving the wound.

I'll see if I can pull a list up sometime in the next day or so.

Draigo wrote:Quicksilver is moot in the discussion between purifiers vs draigo.. Its done in the movement phase and psyk out says buh bye power if a libby doesnt shut it down of course. Sheesh experts think they know everything lol

Also why are people mentioning TAC lists? lol He said hes tailoring.

No, Quicksilver is not a moot point. If the Purifiers fail to snipe the Librarian, and fail to assault first (more possible than you think), it will become a very big point.
Also, Psyk-out grenades only work when launching an assault. I know the Purifiers are counting on being able to use the Storm Raven for an Alpha Strike, but things
don't always go as planned. 3x Psyriflemen Dreads focused on the single Storm Raven will get thru the 3++ much easier than you think. Once that aspect of this build
is neutralized, the army is done.

"Sheesh experts think they know everything lol"

Sheesh, Warhammer Fantasy players think they know how to play 40K. I have said it for a long time; playing Fantasy degrades the skill level of 40K players.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Draigo wrote:Quicksilver is moot in the discussion between purifiers vs draigo.. Its done in the movement phase and psyk out says buh bye power if a libby doesnt shut it down of course. Sheesh experts think they know everything lol

Also why are people mentioning TAC lists? lol He said hes tailoring.

No, Quicksilver is not a moot point. If the Purifiers fail to snipe the Librarian, and fail to assault first (more possible than you think), it will become a very big point.
Also, Psyk-out grenades only work when launching an assault. I know the Purifiers are counting on being able to use the Storm Raven for an Alpha Strike, but things
don't always go as planned. 3x Psyriflemen Dreads focused on the single Storm Raven will get thru the 3++ much easier than you think. Once that aspect of this build
is neutralized, the army is done.

"Sheesh experts think they know everything lol"

Sheesh, Warhammer Fantasy players think they know how to play 40K. I have said it for a long time; playing Fantasy degrades the skill level of 40K players.

Quicksilver can only be used at the start of Librarian's movement phase.
So....useless in GK vs GK.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit.

Firstly, I am indeed list tailoring here, because the OP runs a GK list and asked how to beat Draigowing. I did qualify the SR deathstar as not a good choice for a TAC list, not sure what you're trying to do by pointing it out again.

Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step.




Math Hammer!

9 Purifiers (halberds, 1 stave), Librarian (stave) and Techmarine charge Draigo, Librarian and 10 Paladins kitted out for allocation

Mindstrikes kill the Paladins' Librarian (as long as 2 missiles hit, he has a 22% chance to pass at least one re-rolled 5++).
3 Hammerhands go off for the Purifiers (they only need 2).
One Hammerhand goes off for the Paladins (psychic hood will probably block one Hammerhand)
Psychotroke grenades have a variable, possibly devastating effect - I'll ignore these for now
Rad grenades reduce the Paladins to T3
Psyk-out grenades reduce the Paladins to I1

Purifiers attack first with 9 halberds plus the librarian's stave and the techmarine's p-wep, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 13.3 wounds. Let's assume they take 13 - to be generous, 2 on Draigo, 2 on stave, 2 on a sword, 1 on everyone else.
Draigo takes a wound, maybe.
The stave has a 33% chance to suffer Instant Death.
One sword has a 75% chance to suffer ID against two wounds
One sword has a 50% chance to suffer ID against one wound
7 other Paladins each have a 67% chance to suffer ID

On average, about 6 Paladins will die. There's a 67% chance that the banner is gone, reducing the Paladins to 12 attacks back with counter-charge. Draigo might be wounded. Paladins are only S5.

Draigo - 4 attacks, 3.34 hits, 2.78 wounds
Paladins - 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds
Total of 8.11 wounds. One is allocated to the stave, he will probably live, one is allocated to the Librarian, he will live, one is allocated to the Techmarine, he dies, five more Purifiers die.

The Techmarine strikes simultaneously with the Paladins, using his two servo-arms. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, probably allocated on the stave, giving the stave paladin a total 50%-ish chance of dying. We'll assume he lives.

Combat Res: 6 to 12 or 13, in favor of the Purifiers. Paladins make a Ld check against Ld4 (assuming difference of 6), failing 83% of the time. The Purifiers have a Libby, so they can't sweeping advance. The Paladins flee and depending on the distance and the Purifiers' consolidation, might not regroup next turn.


All this doesn't include the overpowered crazy-nades! The Paladins could be sitting on their asses with 1 attack each, the Purifiers could all get re-rolls (mostly wiping the Paladins on the alpha strike), or the Paladins could attack each other. That's a 50% chance of getting a result that makes the combat one-sided.


Aftermath: Librarian, the Purifier stave and 3 halberds live.
Draigo, 4 Paladins live but are probably falling back.

Result (Combat Continues): The Paladin squad will emerge victorious, with Draigo and 1-3 Paladins remaining.
Result (Paladins Don't Regroup): The Paladin squad flees some more and is chased off the table like common Guardsmen.
Result (Paladins Regroup): The Paladin squad finishes off the Purifiers, either through shooting or charging. They still only have 1-3 Paladins left.

So the Paladin squad has been gutted by a total investment of about 650 points by the Purifier player. This leaves another 1350 points to counter 700-ish points of Draigowing support units. Bloodcrushers can't beat that as far as point efficiency goes. You're looking at a minimum investment of Fateweaver + 8 Crushers + (Thirster or another 8 Crushers). Fateweaver and 8 Crushers alone outstrip the SR anti-deathstar.

It's not because Purifiers are so much better than Crushers. They're not. They just have the right tools for the job - mindstrike missiles to snipe the Librarian, assault grenades and psyk-out grenades, rad and crazy-nades, and lots of hammerhand. Crushers have pure mean combat power, which in this case doesn't get them as far.

Edit: Forgot about the servo arm attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I've never played as GK, but I'm curious; why would the unit be mediocre? It's a unit with Initiative 6 NFW attacks for MEQs and multi-wound models, Cleansing Flame for hordes, GK Librarian Psychic powers, and rad grenades, in a tough, Fast transport. What makes it bad? It might not be QUITE as scary as Paladins are, but it doesn't sound like a particularly weak unit by any means. I can't think of an Ork unit that I would toss at it confident of winning, besides Ghazghkull.

It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

1: weaken enemy's team (snipe his libby with missiles, shield break his Draigo or the stave guy, shoot them with your paycannons and storm bolters or something else)
2: charge them first
3: ignor his Draigo if he still has his shield, kill as many paladins as you can to force them fall back
4: make sure that your unit can stay alive after the combat

that can be done if you put some "right" units in the SR, libby+puridiers+techmarine is one of these kind of unit.

NoArmorSave wrote:Sheesh, Warhammer Fantasy players think they know how to play 40K. I have said it for a long time; playing Fantasy degrades the skill level of 40K players.

Whilst I agree with what NAS is saying, things like this do not help. Try toning down the mightier-than-thou rude attitude and there might be a whole lot less flamebaiting/borderline trolloling here

A mod has already posted here... A word to the wise as they say.

Jihallah wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:Sheesh, Warhammer Fantasy players think they know how to play 40K. I have said it for a long time; playing Fantasy degrades the skill level of 40K players.

Whilst I agree with what NAS is saying, things like this do not help. Try toning down the mightier-than-thou rude attitude and there might be a whole lot less flamebaiting/borderline trolloling here

Agreed. That comment was out of line; I shouldn't have snapped back.

My apologies.

You are the man lifting his hat

haha actually I have noticed recently since starting back into fantasy it doesnt always mess up tactics and playing but it certainly makes forgetting rules an absolute issue. lol But in truth Im a 40k player playing fantasy not the other way around. Though I desrved the jab. My joke wasnt meant to insult. Sarcasm doesnt translate well. Sorry if I myself offended.

anytime you have a 2000 pt army with 1 death star and maybe 2 other units..... an army that can field more units will and should win, simply because of attrition and objectives. just cause you have 10 palladins with wound allocation and FNP, does not make them invincable, and they will go down to pretty much an entire army worth of shooting....since thats what your doing. draigo wing says "I bet my deathstar can take your entire army shooting, live, and win the game".... with a 24" range, limited mobility options... (what take smaller squad and SR/LR?) deepstrike, wich really.... as far as any army is concerened...."please come closer to my plasma/melta/lazcannon/lance etc gun line". there is SO many things out there that are str 8 or bigger, and at the same time have 36" range or bigger. while the pallys have to either hug cover and pray, brave the open and pray, or trim squad sizes down to fit in transports, and then pray. there is absloutly no reason why 2000 pts of shooting at a single unit will not wipe out that unit. i dont know the extent of a purifier list, but i imagine it features at least 3 psy dreads. thats 12 twin linked str 8 shots at 48. yea 2+ armor... but no fnp and insta kills failed checks. razor backs with lazcannons and so on. plus. the downside to having 1 big unit IT CAN ONLY SHOOT AT ONE THING!! so my entire army unloads at draigo and co, in return he hits back (if hes in range even) and bangs up one unit. and really... 3 psycannons and 7 storm bolters will not do much.

my DE laugh at draigo wing.
- transport with 2-3 units of pallys (6 strong (5+ char) in a SR or LRC) shoot down transport with lances, then the rest pretty much wipe out the squishy bits inside. next turn, do the same thing to the other unit. once your death stars are done, its mop up duty. if you go big 10 man + 2 chars (10 pallys inc apothicary, draigo and libby) then that unit takes no less then 9 lances and 108 splinter shots. plus blasters if i need them (another 18 of those)
- the ravagers will hit 6 times, and insta kill 4 of them. (accounting for bad dice here) even if you do wound allocation from each ravager, each one should hit twice and kill on avg twice, (needing 2+) draigo can only take 1 per round, so your loosing 1 pally per ravager - thats 3 down. your 12 man unit is now 9 men. (with a possibly wounded draigo) then the splinter fire... using the same thing (allocate specfic wounds onto draigo - but why would you? its not ID or bypass armor) using the whole thing, 108 shots hit, 2/3 hit so 72 hits, and half wound = 36 wounds. 1/6 fails = 6 wounds inflicted, and 3 of those are FNP away. so now 3 of your pallys are wounded, assuming you have full wound allocation shenanigans. if the blasters come in as well, 4 shots from 3 squads so draigo can take 3...hope he hasent taken any yet... but generally 4 other pallys are toast. lets be nice and say 2 actually die from the TB. warrior blasters again... 6 of them each is single unit shot so you COULD take all of them on draigo... but a 3++ wont stop everything. chances are he either avoids the shots, and you loose 2 more pallys, or draigo drops to failed saves. so thats 7 palladins down that turn, and the other 3 wounded. draigo might be alive, as well the libby but chances are good that draigo has taken a beating and is rocking 1 maybe 2 wounds left. - GK turn, that single unit shoots, and drops a venom. your other 2 units do the same, and perhaps ill get unlucky and all 3 of those will be TB venoms, and ill loose 2 from each squad in the explosions. (explosions not gaurenteed, might just be wreck, but could also loose 3 of 4 in explosion. avg to 2 each). next turn, my entire army resumes shooting as above - minus 36 splinter shots and 6 blasters. but im shooting at a 5 man unit sporting probally nothing better then 7-8 wounds left. that unit SHOULD die this round. now your left with 2 smaller units of termies or whatever, facing the entire army again, so you really can at best damage/drop 2 units a round while im pumping an entire army worth of shooting into a single unit. - not to mention objectives claiming and so on. (this is also assuming im getting within 24" to make use of blaster fire)

if pallys or something get into CC with one of my units....that unit is dead, but its also dirt cheap, and will die that round. (5 DE warrirors fighting pallys? yeaaaaa *squish*) leaving them nice and open for return fire. plus, im more then happy if you cower in cover. it means i can stay back at 30" and snipe away with lance and splinter weapons with no worry of return fire. - thus making your expensive deathstar 100% useless.

in conclusion - dont fear the draigo wing. its got all its eggs in a single basket - and that basket really can't take a whole army shooting at it, AND actually do something in game. i mean your best load out for shooting is 4 psycannons (2 per 5) giving you 16 shots. and 6 storm bolters for another 12. all at 24" range. how is that going to kill anything? maybe a light transport... but at BEST youll kill 4 of them in a game (assuming no shots turn 1 and a 5 turn match). doing nothing about the guys inside. all while weathering the entire army shooting at you. splitting the squad down to fit in transport allows some flexability in target priority, but your effectivness is down. plus, storm ravens and land raiders are expensive, and either slow, or not much better then rhinos. (a 10 man pally unit with draigo, a libby with 2 powers, 4 psycannons, apothicary, banner and psybolt = 1185) for a SINGLE unit. this costs more for more libby powers, gear, and more wargear on pallys for wound allocation) whats the other 700 pts going towards? another smaller pally unit? maybe some psy dreads? not very efficent if you ask me. certainly wont win any objective games

So to counter Draigowing..has anyone considered IG psyker squads+ tank shock...I feel that like would be auto win. Even just 2 squads of them would ensure you would get the cast off with the superior range. use chimeras to tank shock..reduce leadership.
GG? weaken resolve seems super powerful right about now
Or did i miss this earlier in the thread...

So you discount grand strategy making more things scoring and other tricks employed by the army. Plus I tend to laugh at the paper boats and have yet to lose to a de player objctive or otherwise. Running draigo or purifier the paper loses most its luster after turn 2 if that. While lance spam can be tough matchup I dont think you have much to laugh at. Even if you win You wont have much left.

A smart gk player will have a dread close by to shut down the PSB with its reinforced Aegis. If you can pop the dread first then cast WR that will help a lot.

Not to mention many draigowing lists run a libby with hood.. Aside from Eldrad/farseer its hard to have a psy advantage per se. Tank shock is an option but I dont think its a solid first plan since if you fail you are right next to squads that have access to usin hhx2, might of titan and hammers.. thats a lot of dead tank..

by all means - please place one of your 3 units inside my deployment zone all by itself. it will *maybe* kill one thing before its slag or dust or both.

(also i own and do play 4000 pts of GK. including, 25 termie models. i have tried "draigo wing" or termie spam, and it generally always dies to armies that have more units, more targeting options, and more target saturation. not to mention more scoring units.)

Clauss wrote:So to counter Draigowing..has anyone considered IG psyker squads+ tank shock...I feel that like would be auto win. Even just 2 squads of them would ensure you would get the cast off with the superior range. use chimeras to tank shock..reduce leadership.
GG? weaken resolve seems super powerful right about now
Or did i miss this earlier in the thread...

No, it doesn't work. Tank-shock is done during Movement. Weaken Resolve in Shooting after tanks have already moved....

Roboute wrote:
Math Hammer!

9 Purifiers (halberds, 1 stave), Librarian (stave) and Techmarine charge Draigo, Librarian and 10 Paladins kitted out for allocation

Mindstrikes kill the Paladins' Librarian (as long as 2 missiles hit, he has a 22% chance to pass at least one re-rolled 5++).
3 Hammerhands go off for the Purifiers (they only need 2).
One Hammerhand goes off for the Paladins (psychic hood will probably block one Hammerhand)
Psychotroke grenades have a variable, possibly devastating effect - I'll ignore these for now
Rad grenades reduce the Paladins to T3
Psyk-out grenades reduce the Paladins to I1

Purifiers attack first with 9 halberds plus the librarian's stave and the techmarine's p-wep, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 13.3 wounds. Let's assume they take 13 - to be generous, 2 on Draigo, 2 on stave, 2 on a sword, 1 on everyone else.
Draigo takes a wound, maybe.
The stave has a 33% chance to suffer Instant Death.
One sword has a 75% chance to suffer ID against two wounds
One sword has a 50% chance to suffer ID against one wound
7 other Paladins each have a 67% chance to suffer ID

On average, about 6 Paladins will die. There's a 67% chance that the banner is gone, reducing the Paladins to 12 attacks back with counter-charge. Draigo might be wounded. Paladins are only S5.

Draigo - 4 attacks, 3.34 hits, 2.78 wounds
Paladins - 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds
Total of 8.11 wounds. One is allocated to the stave, he will probably live, one is allocated to the Librarian, he will live, one is allocated to the Techmarine, he dies, five more Purifiers die.

The Techmarine strikes simultaneously with the Paladins, using his two servo-arms. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, probably allocated on the stave, giving the stave paladin a total 50%-ish chance of dying. We'll assume he lives.

Combat Res: 6 to 12 or 13, in favor of the Purifiers. Paladins make a Ld check against Ld4 (assuming difference of 6), failing 83% of the time. The Purifiers have a Libby, so they can't sweeping advance. The Paladins flee and depending on the distance and the Purifiers' consolidation, might not regroup next turn.


All this doesn't include the overpowered crazy-nades! The Paladins could be sitting on their asses with 1 attack each, the Purifiers could all get re-rolls (mostly wiping the Paladins on the alpha strike), or the Paladins could attack each other. That's a 50% chance of getting a result that makes the combat one-sided.


Aftermath: Librarian, the Purifier stave and 3 halberds live.
Draigo, 4 Paladins live but are probably falling back.

Result (Combat Continues): The Paladin squad will emerge victorious, with Draigo and 1-3 Paladins remaining.
Result (Paladins Don't Regroup): The Paladin squad flees some more and is chased off the table like common Guardsmen.
Result (Paladins Regroup): The Paladin squad finishes off the Purifiers, either through shooting or charging. They still only have 1-3 Paladins left.

So the Paladin squad has been gutted by a total investment of about 650 points by the Purifier player. This leaves another 1350 points to counter 700-ish points of Draigowing support units. Bloodcrushers can't beat that as far as point efficiency goes. You're looking at a minimum investment of Fateweaver + 8 Crushers + (Thirster or another 8 Crushers). Fateweaver and 8 Crushers alone outstrip the SR anti-deathstar.

It's not because Purifiers are so much better than Crushers. They're not. They just have the right tools for the job - mindstrike missiles to snipe the Librarian, assault grenades and psyk-out grenades, rad and crazy-nades, and lots of hammerhand. Crushers have pure mean combat power, which in this case doesn't get them as far.

This is exactly what happened to me in the last game that I was beaten with my Draigowng at 2000 points (I lost to Tony Kopack at the Nova Open but that was because I forgot t make my Interceptors scoring). I was playing back in July at the 4th round of Wargames Con and the winner of my game would go on to the Championship round, and the loser would would be in the consolidation bracket. Hank Edley charged me with a Stormraven filled with Purifiers kitted out for assault and they ended up doing a lot more wounds to me than I did to them and I broke and ran and I was never able to regroup. So the next day I crushed 3 guys in the consolidation bracket and won best general.