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Dark Eldar eats draigowing for breakfast... if they want a chance against a good DE list, they will need psyfledreads.

I personally think that anymore than 5 paladins at 2k is overkill. Grey knights work better with synergy and not spam.

The only worthwhile units to spam in the GK codex are purifiers and psyfle dreads, spamming either of those is cheese though. I tend to roll with one squad of purifiers and two psyfle dreads. I then mix squads because spamming is crap.

apple1988218 wrote:
There's only one risk: storm raven/LR can only give you about 12"+2"(base)+6orD6"(charge) range, that means if you can charge him, your vehicle was in 24" of your enemy last turn.
If he failed to destroy your vehicle, your win; if he destroyed your vehicle, it will become a shooting game----whoever move into 12" range first will be charged by his enemy.

But still, this is one of the best plans, and that's what I do when facing with another Draigo wing player. The only thing different is that I put Draigo and 5 paladins in the raven

Yes, you have to take one turn of shooting. You are moving fast so you get a 3+ save with the librarians shrouding.

With that protection they are pretty hard to kill.

Blackmoor wrote:

apple1988218 wrote:
There's only one risk: storm raven/LR can only give you about 12"+2"(base)+6orD6"(charge) range, that means if you can charge him, your vehicle was in 24" of your enemy last turn.
If he failed to destroy your vehicle, your win; if he destroyed your vehicle, it will become a shooting game----whoever move into 12" range first will be charged by his enemy.

But still, this is one of the best plans, and that's what I do when facing with another Draigo wing player. The only thing different is that I put Draigo and 5 paladins in the raven

Yes, you have to take one turn of shooting. You are moving fast so you get a 3+ save with the librarians shrouding.

With that protection they are pretty hard to kill.

Yep, and the person who use Draigo wing has to do that, to focus all his weapons on the raven, and praying to the dice god : |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In most case, I don't have a chance to snipe his libby.
I must move 24" from the first turn, otherwise my raven will be killed by my enemy's psyflemen
But still, raven+cc unit is good.

Draigo wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:

Draigo wrote:I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

Well you are suggesting that poison weapons do the job...my math proved that it really doesn't. Even if you lose the Apothecary you do 6 wounds...with 9 Venoms. That's pretty much all the transports a DE list can field and comes in at 585pts if they have the extra Splinter cannon. Not very efficient.

Templates vs a decent general are not really worrisome. 40mm bases and 2" coherency means 2 models will be hit on a perfect scatter roll. High Strength shooting does damage whether it's a 5 or 10 man unit. Paladins are Paladins. They will draw the high Strength shots.

Then I want your math to come tell the die in my games they need to listen to you and I should easily crush that silly venom spam. I do not care what your math says. It does not do anything in the ACTUAL game. Unless you are using an online dice roller there is not math involved. There are dips in the terrain.. the board does not sit flat. The dice can bump into things. There is nothing your formula can do to account for these things. Thats why math uses variable and unknown values.

I don't really know what you are getting defensive about. The point of using maths is to determine the average outcome. I can tell you firing 9 Venoms once killed off 10 Paladins in a single shooting phase but that's hardly going to happen all the time. The more the result deviates from the average the less likely it is to happen. More than anything I guess it's used for target priority and list building purposes. Knowing that your Venoms aren't a great counter to Draigowing helps you (as in any General) to put in the things that are great against them and by knowing that there are potentially better targets than the uber-tough Paladins....by doing some maths.

Im hardly defensive. lol But none of your math matters in the game unless your exact numbers are plugged in. Telling someone venoms etc do not hurt a 10 block so they shouldnt do it is false since again 10 is not the common deal. So unless you know for sure you will even face pallys in such numbers its pointless. You are right it can give you a general idea though but math only holds sway in forums where people can control everything.

Draigo wrote:Im hardly defensive. lol But none of your math matters in the game unless your exact numbers are plugged in. Telling someone venoms etc do not hurt a 10 block so they shouldnt do it is false since again 10 is not the common deal. So unless you know for sure you will even face pallys in such numbers its pointless. You are right it can give you a general idea though but math only holds sway in forums where people can control everything.

Math matters in game. You do not need to be a genius to figure out what things are more efficient in game. Going back to the Venom spam idea:

9 Venoms with extra Splinter Cannons = 108 shots
You know they have a ballistic skill of 4 so expected number of hits (overall) is 72
Always wounds on 4's so you would expect to deal 36 wounds
Then with 2+ saves you would expect 6 to fail. 3 if the apothecary is present.
Then taking into consideration that each venom causes less than 1 wound (statistically speaking) you also expect each of these wounds to be spread over multiple models.

Other examples are much more messy, but just to give you an example using percentages:

A Dark Lance has a 66.6% chance to hit
55.5% chance to wound
With a 3+ cover save we can also see it has an 18.5% chance of killing a Paladin with each shot.

With the Venom:
66.6% chance to hit
33.3% chance to wound
5.5% chance to knock off a single wound.

Which is more effective? I never said Venoms couldn't hurt Paladins, what I did was point out that Venoms are an extremely inefficient way of dealing with them (and even pointed out the amount of wounds they were likely to cause).

But that disregards the common blasterborn, 2-3 ravagers that are typical. Im not against math per se but I dislike vaccum troop comparisions outside of saying this is how well a dl will affect AV 14. Not sure how clear im actually expressing my opinion. lol

Well I wasn't really assuming a vacuum. The OP is having trouble with Paladins and asked what armies out there can take it down. A common competitive list is DE Venom Spam. They not only have the tools to take it down, they are also one of the best. That particular match-up looks almost tailor-made for the DE in my opinion. The Venoms aren't great in this match-up, but the sheer amount of lances will put heavy pressure on.

Since the OP doesn't actually play DE this is kind of off-topic though. I would listen to Blackmoor OP since he has successfully run Draigowing at a very competitive level (I was watching out for the video report of your games at the NOVA open and follow your blog when I can).

Blackmoor wrote:

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

I have never been particularly impressed with Draigo Wing. I have beaten the army four times (including a complete table) with my Fatecrusher Daemons, and one of the games was against a local
tournament champion player. Honestly, playing the army with Fatecrusher is kind of a joke, and not much of a challenge (even with Dark Excommunication in the mix).
I have also beaten it with my Chaos Space Marines, which is much more of a challenge.

I think it is a good, solid army, but is not Uber like it it being made out to be. I will happily throw down with any Draigo Wing player, at any time.

I have a 2k Draigo wing list and let me tell you it absolutely is not an auto win list like you seem to think. yes its very resilient, and yes it can be very tough to deal with in close combat, but I only have two scoring units! and 4 units in the entire army, it is designed to do very well in killpoint games but objective games are almost won or lost by how smartly my opponent places his objectives. I typically try to place as many objectives as I can within 12" of each other so one 10 man can hold two objectives.

......Can some one tell me what is a "real" Draigo wing?

5paladins, 10paladins or 20paladins?

(soladin doesn't count)

apple1988218 wrote:......Can some one tell me what is a "real" Draigo wing?

5paladins, 10paladins or 20paladins?

(soladin doesn't count)

I don't know if there's any hard-and-fast definition for a "real" Draigowing. I prefer to think of a pure or "real" Draigowing army as an army where the only infantry are Paladins, either 20 Paladins on foot or 10 Paladins in Stormravens or other transports. However, Blackmoor's army is certainly centered around Draigo and Paladins and still includes other infantry like GKSS and Interceptors.

I wouldn't call any army with less than 10 Paladins Draigowing, as the Paladins probably aren't the main focus of the army's battle plan.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

I have never been particularly impressed with Draigo Wing. I have beaten the army four times (including a complete table) with my Fatecrusher Daemons, and one of the games was against a local
tournament champion player. Honestly, playing the army with Fatecrusher is kind of a joke, and not much of a challenge (even with Dark Excommunication in the mix).
I have also beaten it with my Chaos Space Marines, which is much more of a challenge.

When I say Draigowing I am not talking about an army made up only of paladins, but a grey knight army build around paladins.

So I do not see your fatecrusher list doing that well.

So let’s say that everything is in your favor. The bloodcrushers are not tied up all game in assault with a dreadnaught, that you have not deepstriked a mile away because of warp quake, and that the shooting of the paladins have not killed fateweaver, and that the paladins have not backed up for several turns and kept on shooting, and we will disregard you that you have to get within 12” to charge them so that means the paladins can charge first.

So let us pretend that all of those factors are not in play.

8 Bloodcrushers+2 Heralds of Khorne on Juggernautes+Fateweaver vs. Paladins+Draigo+Librarian
#1. First off Draigo gives the Paladins counter charge with grand strategy since you have no other plan than to charge.
#2. The librarian casts sanctuary so you have to take a dangerous terrain test so let’s assume 1 wound from that. Since you do not have grenades the paladins strike first.
#3. 10 Paladins with the brotherhood banner and counter attack have 40 attacks. With the re-roll from preferred enemy they will hit 30 times (they are both WS5).
#4. After hammerhand from the Librarian, Draigo and the squad they are strength 7 and wounding on 2+. So 30 attacks=25 wounds.
#5. Bloodcrushers have a 5+ inv save so 25 wounds=16.6 unsaved wounds.
#6. Fateweaver lets you re-roll their saves, so 16.6 saves=11.1 wounds+2 unsaved wounds that Draigo does =13 wounds. Plus the wound from dangerous terrain that is 7 bases, but you are wound allocated and let’s say that you only lose 6 bases.
#7. 2 bases swinging back= 8 attacks 4 will hit, 2.65 will wound and the staff eats one, and swords some others so 1.5 wounds.
#8. Each Herald of Khorne will do 1.1 wound against a 5+ inv save.
So you are looking at Paladins doing 13 wounds, and Bloodcrushers doing 3. That does not look too god for you.
So you are losing by a lot of wounds, and that does not include attacks against Draigo, and that all of your wounded models that have to take a leadership check or be insta-kill and all of the fearless wounds you will be taking.

Roboute wrote:

apple1988218 wrote:......Can some one tell me what is a "real" Draigo wing?

5paladins, 10paladins or 20paladins?

(soladin doesn't count)

I don't know if there's any hard-and-fast definition for a "real" Draigowing. I prefer to think of a pure or "real" Draigowing army as an army where the only infantry are Paladins, either 20 Paladins on foot or 10 Paladins in Stormravens or other transports. However, Blackmoor's army is certainly centered around Draigo and Paladins and still includes other infantry like GKSS and Interceptors.

I wouldn't call any army with less than 10 Paladins Draigowing, as the Paladins probably aren't the main focus of the army's battle plan.

How about Draigo+5paladins and Stormraven in a 1750 list?
795 pts, about 45% of the whole list.

apple1988218 wrote:How about Draigo+5paladins and Stormraven in a 1750 list?
795 pts, about 45% of the whole list.

I don't know, 5 Paladins just doesn't seem like enough to me. Don't let me stop you from calling it a Draigowing, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackmoor wrote:When I say Draigowing I am not talking about an army made up only of paladins, but a grey knight army build around paladins.

So I do not see your fatecrusher list doing that well.

So let’s say that everything is in your favor. The bloodcrushers are not tied up all game in assault with a dreadnaught, that you have not deepstriked a mile away because of warp quake, and that the shooting of the paladins have not killed fateweaver, and that the paladins have not backed up for several turns and kept on shooting, and we will disregard you that you have to get within 12” to charge them so that means the paladins can charge first.

So let us pretend that all of those factors are not in play.

8 Bloodcrushers+2 Heralds of Khorne on Juggernautes+Fateweaver vs. Paladins+Draigo+Librarian
#1. First off Draigo gives the Paladins counter charge with grand strategy since you have no other plan than to charge.
#2. The librarian casts sanctuary so you have to take a dangerous terrain test so let’s assume 1 wound from that. Since you do not have grenades the paladins strike first.
#3. 10 Paladins with the brotherhood banner and counter attack have 40 attacks. With the re-roll from preferred enemy they will hit 30 times (they are both WS5).
#4. After hammerhand from the Librarian, Draigo and the squad they are strength 7 and wounding on 2+. So 30 attacks=25 wounds.
#5. Bloodcrushers have a 5+ inv save so 25 wounds=16.6 unsaved wounds.
#6. Fateweaver lets you re-roll their saves, so 16.6 saves=11.1 wounds+2 unsaved wounds that Draigo does =13 wounds. Plus the wound from dangerous terrain that is 7 bases, but you are wound allocated and let’s say that you only lose 6 bases.
#7. 2 bases swinging back= 8 attacks 4 will hit, 2.65 will wound and the staff eats one, and swords some others so 1.5 wounds.
#8. Each Herald of Khorne will do 1.1 wound against a 5+ inv save.
So you are looking at Paladins doing 13 wounds, and Bloodcrushers doing 3. That does not look too god for you.
So you are losing by a lot of wounds, and that does not include attacks against Draigo, and that all of your wounded models that have to take a leadership check or be insta-kill and all of the fearless wounds you will be taking.

This analysis is basically accurate. You did fail to mention that Fateweaver has a 28% chance of making you pick up your Librarian before the Assault phase, or a 14% chance of making you pick up Draigo. It's not something I'd rely on as a Daemon player, but it's there. Worst case scenario, the LIbrarian is picked up, which means only the GK halberds will get to strike first, your Strength will be 1 lower, and you'll be facing a lot of return attacks. I don't really feel like doing the math, but I'm guessing this will result in carnage on both sides.

Also, this assumes that all of the Paladins are able to allocate attacks against the Crushers themselves. If the Daemon player is smart, he can use his Heralds with BotBG to soak a substantial number of the Paladins' attacks. Or, as I've seen many Fatecrusher lists do, they take a Bloodthirster as the second HQ. With BotBG, he's a bit more of a handful for a squad of Paladins, with I6 on the charge, T6 and a pile of high WS and S attacks.

So I think if we're talking the absolute worst case scenario for a GK player, there's a good chance the Paladins will lose. However, this requires so many variables to line up that it's not very helpful to the discussion. I think it's safe to say that a skilled Daemon player could pull this off against a less competent Draigowing player, but I doubt a player of Blackmoor's caliber would let this situation develop without taking the countermeasures he described at the beginning of his post, such as tarpitting with dreadnoughts or warp quake bubbles.

Blackmoor wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

I have never been particularly impressed with Draigo Wing. I have beaten the army four times (including a complete table) with my Fatecrusher Daemons, and one of the games was against a local
tournament champion player. Honestly, playing the army with Fatecrusher is kind of a joke, and not much of a challenge (even with Dark Excommunication in the mix).
I have also beaten it with my Chaos Space Marines, which is much more of a challenge.

When I say Draigowing I am not talking about an army made up only of paladins, but a grey knight army build around paladins.

So I do not see your fatecrusher list doing that well.

So let’s say that everything is in your favor. The bloodcrushers are not tied up all game in assault with a dreadnaught, that you have not deepstriked a mile away because of warp quake, and that the shooting of the paladins have not killed fateweaver, and that the paladins have not backed up for several turns and kept on shooting, and we will disregard you that you have to get within 12” to charge them so that means the paladins can charge first.

So let us pretend that all of those factors are not in play.

8 Bloodcrushers+2 Heralds of Khorne on Juggernautes+Fateweaver vs. Paladins+Draigo+Librarian
#1. First off Draigo gives the Paladins counter charge with grand strategy since you have no other plan than to charge.
#2. The librarian casts sanctuary so you have to take a dangerous terrain test so let’s assume 1 wound from that. Since you do not have grenades the paladins strike first.
#3. 10 Paladins with the brotherhood banner and counter attack have 40 attacks. With the re-roll from preferred enemy they will hit 30 times (they are both WS5).
#4. After hammerhand from the Librarian, Draigo and the squad they are strength 7 and wounding on 2+. So 30 attacks=25 wounds.
#5. Bloodcrushers have a 5+ inv save so 25 wounds=16.6 unsaved wounds.
#6. Fateweaver lets you re-roll their saves, so 16.6 saves=11.1 wounds+2 unsaved wounds that Draigo does =13 wounds. Plus the wound from dangerous terrain that is 7 bases, but you are wound allocated and let’s say that you only lose 6 bases.
#7. 2 bases swinging back= 8 attacks 4 will hit, 2.65 will wound and the staff eats one, and swords some others so 1.5 wounds.
#8. Each Herald of Khorne will do 1.1 wound against a 5+ inv save.
So you are looking at Paladins doing 13 wounds, and Bloodcrushers doing 3. That does not look too god for you.
So you are losing by a lot of wounds, and that does not include attacks against Draigo, and that all of your wounded models that have to take a leadership check or be insta-kill and all of the fearless wounds you will be taking.

There are some really significant problems with your example. It is not accurate at all, and doesn't reflect the realities of this nightmare matchup for Draigo Wing.
I know everything about the Fatecrusher\Draigo Wing matchup, and have played it out dozens of times in testing, and in multiple real games.

I run 24 crushers, not 8. All of them are focused on your Paladin deathstar. If you are running 10 Paladins, you don't have much left at 2,000 points that I am worried about. Some Purifiers and Psyriflemen in the background are minor annoyances.
In addition to the Crushers, who are striking at ST6 on the charge with 32 power weapon attacks (wounding you on 2's), there is a Bloodthirster rampaging thru your Paladins as well. He strikes with 6 ST9 attacks on the charge, and has a 2++ Invulnerable save against
Draigo and all of his cronies. Any failed saved against any of his attacks is a dead Paladin, or a dented Draigo.
As an added bonus, you run a very real risk of having your Librarian or other IC sniped by Kairos each turn with Gift of Chaos.

"The bloodcrushers are not tied up all game in assault with a dreadnaught",
Maybe if you are playing a Noob. You are not going to touch my Bloodcrushers with your Psyriflemen, and if you do there are counters.

"that you have not deepstriked a mile away because of warp quake",
If you are running 10+ Paladins, you are not going to have much warp quake in a realistic all comers list. Maybe 1 or 2 instances of it.

"and that the shooting of the paladins have not killed fateweaver"
Unlikely. It can happen, but probably won't.

"and that the paladins have not backed up for several turns and kept on shooting, and we will disregard you that you have to get within 12” to charge them so that means the paladins can charge first."
I would give you about 1 turn of being able to back up and shoot. If I sensed a major loss in positioning I would correct it with my Bloodthirster. He moves 12", and assaults 6", and loves to butcher Paladins.

Game Turn 2 - 2x 8 Strong Crusher Squads + Bloodthirster charge into Paladin Deathstar.
A - Librarian casts Sanctuary (I would even let you have Dark Excommunication for this, it won't matter)
B - Draigo, Librarian, Squad cast Hammerhand
C - Paladins + Librarian Attack - 33 attacks (2 base + brotherhood banner), Draigo attacks- 4 attacks
I will roll it now, you are hitting on 4's: 2,6,2,3,5,5,3,5,3,4,3,3,4,3,1,4,3,1,4,5,3,2,5,6,1,6,1, 1,6,2,1,4 = 14 hits
Reroll 17 hits (preferred enemy): 6,5,2,4,3,3,4,2,6,6,1,1,5,4,4,2,2 = 9 more hits
Draigo: 6,1,5,4 Reroll 1 = 6, Total = 4 more hits
Grand Total = 27 hits
Roll to Wound (need 2's) = 5,3,2,1,1,3,3,5,3,1,4,6,2,6,2,2,3,4,2,6,4,6,2,3,3,1,5,6 = 24 wounds
Bloodcrushers Roll to Save (need 5's) = 5,2,1,2,5,5,2,3,1,3,5,6,6,2,5,6,1,5,2,3,2,4,3,5,2 = 10 Saved
Bloodcrushers Reroll 14 Failed Saves (Kairos) = 6,2,2,5,4,5,4,4,6,2,3,6,3,5 = 6 more Saved
Total = 8 unsaved wounds
Allocate (allocating after saves for both sides, as it is much easier to type) = 1 wound to crusher with fury, 1 wound to crusher with Icon, 1 wound to crusher with Instrument,
5 wound's to normal crushers (2 Crushers removed from unsaved wounds. Daemonbane next)
Daemonbane = 4 crushers need to pass a LD test (LD 10), or are removed. I will roll now = 6,10,8,7
Result = 2 Crushers are removed (please note I am being intentionally generous here, as in reality, there would have
likely been attacks\wounds going against the other crusher squad and the Bloodthirster.

Bloodthirster Attacks = 1,6,3,6,6,1 = 4 hits
Roll to wound = 5,2,2,5 = Wounds
Roll to save = 4,5,3,4 = (I will be generous and say I positioned him in the charge round so that he is base to base with Draigo and your Librarian. It wouldn't happen in real life). = 2 dead Paladins

Crushers attack back = 52 attacks - WS5, ST6, Power Weapons - hitting on 4's = 4,4,6,3,1,2,6,3,5,6,3,3,5,6,1,1,5,2,6,4,5,1,4,1,1,2,3,6,4,2,5,1,3,1,6,6,2,4,5,4,5,4,4,2,6,2,3,3,3,5,1,5, = 27 hits
Crushers roll to wound (need 2's) = 3,5,1,2,3,4,3,2,4,6,5,6,3,4,1,2,1,6,2,5,5,6,5,6,6,2,5, = 24 power weapon wounds

Roll to save = 1,6,4,2,2,2,1,1,5,4,6,6,6,1,6,2,4,4,2,4,1,1,1,5
(I will be generous, and say you gave your Librarian a Warding Stave) = 3 go on Draigo (1,6,4), 3 go on Librarian (2,2,2), 18 are spread around the other 8 living Paladins = 1,1,5,4,6,6,6,1,6,2,4,4,2,4,1,1,1,5
= 12 unsaved wounds to allocate to the Paladins


Net combat results =
Draigo = 1 wound
Librarian = Unwounded
Paladin 1 = Dead
Paladin 2 = Dead
Paladin 3 = Dead
Paladin 4 = Dead
Paladin 5 = Dead
Paladin 6 = Dead
Paladin 7 = Wounded
Paladin 8 = Wounded
Paladin 9 = Wounded
Paladin 10 = Wounded

You lost combat by 7, and the entire 10 Paladin squad with Draigo+Librarian, will very likely be wiped out next turn.

This is just the first round of combat dude. My 3rd crusher squad hasn't even entered combat yet. I mean we can do this again with Shield of Blades, a Techmarine with Psychotroke Grenades, and I will even let you have Dark Excommunication on your Librarian, which will completely
shut down 1 of the Crusher squads. Bottom line = You are doomed, and deep down inside you know this to be true. Fatecrusher is a really bad matchup for Draigo Wing, even if Draigo Wing is running 20 Paladins.

How exactly does shield of blades make them not scoring?? Theyre troops with Draigo.

Draigo wrote:How exactly does shield of blades make them not scoring?? Theyre troops with Draigo.

My bad, I was looking at the Draigo entry on Pg. 38 of the Codex. It lists Grand Strategy, but not Lord of Titan. Lord of Titan is on Pg. 82.

So, Draigo Wing can take Shield of Blades and still have normal control over objectives. Let's see how this effects the battle, essentially
giving 12 more attacks because of counter charge.

12 more attacks (4's to hit) = 3,6,6,3,4,6,6,4,1,6,2,5
Reroll 4 misses (preferred enemy) = 2,5,2,4
Total = 10 hits
Roll to wound (need 2's) = 5,5,3,5,4,1,1,2,2,3
Total = 8 wounds
Roll to save (Bloodcrushers need 5's) = 1,1,3,6,1,3,4,3
Total = 7 failed saves
Reroll failed saves (Kairos) = 3,3,1,5,5,3,4
Total = 5 unsaved wounds

Not nearly enough to turn the tide, not by a long shot. And these bonus attacks are only for the 1st round of combat.

What does your full list look like at 2000 points?

Blackmoor wrote:What does your full list look like at 2000 points?

You first.

You discounted the shooting and the fact that the pallys attacks will all attack first lowering your first assault after taking fire so I dont see how your Crushers are as effective. Im not discounting them overall I mean I own the fatecrusher list but Im curious how do you deal with sanctuary, the shooting etc. Can you run your numbers when more then likely you wont be at full strength like the paladins.

Wait, NoArmorSave, if I'm reading this right, you just math hammered out an entire fight using real dice rolls instead of averages? What exactly does that accomplish? It's certainly not useless, but it's only one instance. It's like going through a whole bunch of time and effort for one point on a graph, when instead you could plot a whole curve. To be fair, without standard deviation an average roll is a single point as well, but it seems to me that the average roll would be much more informative than the specific instance. The average roll gives you an instance where luck is nonexistent, letting you adjust up or down to simulate a better or worse roll. Rolling a single test, you can always say, "But what if my luck was different next time?"

Also, while you did point out a few mistakes in Blackmoor's initial analysis (a few of which I mentioned as well), the scenario you've described is mind-bogglingly in favor of you.

So you run 24 Crushers. You've assumed a Turn 2 charge with 2 units of 8 Crushers and a Thirster. Ignoring the Thirster, which will get into CC thanks to wings, what makes you think you'll be able to get a multiassault off with 2 squads of 8 Crushers against his Paladin squad, on Turn 2 no less?

- Your 8-man units have a huge Deep Strike footprint. The more aggressive you get with your deployment, the greater chance that your units will mishap and not show up at all. So to get a turn 2 assault, you'll need to get lucky with both DS and run moves. This is ignoring the fact that (if I'm not mistaken) Blackmoor is still running a 10-man Interceptor squad which can combat squad and cover the pallies with warp quake.

- Paladins can move and shoot to full effectiveness. Crushers can't charge an enemy who starts their turn more than 12" away (not counting the possibility of failing a DT test). Unless he runs out of board, why wouldn't he move out of assault range on his turn? Every turn he kites you is more dead Crushers, Fateweaver or no. Or, more likely, it buys him time to kill the birdy. Every turn of shooting from 10 Pallies with 4 psycannons, psybolts, Draigo and a Libby will put 13-14 wounds on Fateweaver, of which he will fail 1 in 9, or 1.5ish failed saves a turn. That's about 2 turns of shooting, assuming he doesn't fail Ld and fly away.

- "If I sensed a major loss in positioning I would correct it with my Bloodthirster. He moves 12," and assaults 6", and loves to butcher Paladins." Really? Your solution would be to tie them up with a single model, who will die before the Crushers reach combat, probably in a single round? On average, the full squad plus characters would do 24 wounds to him, which is enough to kill him even assuming the 2++.

- If I were Blackmoor, I'd keep myself within charge range of one squad of Crushers, while staying away from the rest. This forces you to either attack him piecemeal, let him charge, or allow him to continue to kite you.

- In a squad that huge, are you realistically getting everyone engaged in that first round of combat against a canny opponent who isn't going to position his models to your advantage?

I haven't even touched on your actual combat numbers yet. I might math hammer it out, but not right now.

Beating the 2k Draigo list is easy. I will just melta them with 3 full man Fire Dragon squads in Wave Serpents. GG. Of course ill support them with the rest of my army, but you get the idea of what will happen, I dont even need to post the list. Whoever plays that list should play a new game, Clay fighters for Sega Genesis would probably be a more constructive and suitable game for his/her skill level.

Roboute wrote:Wait, NoArmorSave, if I'm reading this right, you just math hammered out an entire fight using real dice rolls instead of averages? What exactly does that accomplish? It's certainly not useless, but it's only one instance. It's like going through a whole bunch of time and effort for one point on a graph, when instead you could plot a whole curve. To be fair, without standard deviation an average roll is a single point as well, but it seems to me that the average roll would be much more informative than the specific instance. The average roll gives you an instance where luck is nonexistent, letting you adjust up or down to simulate a better or worse roll. Rolling a single test, you can always say, "But what if my luck was different next time?"

Also, while you did point out a few mistakes in Blackmoor's initial analysis (a few of which I mentioned as well), the scenario you've described is mind-bogglingly in favor of you.

So you run 24 Crushers. You've assumed a Turn 2 charge with 2 units of 8 Crushers and a Thirster. Ignoring the Thirster, which will get into CC thanks to wings, what makes you think you'll be able to get a multiassault off with 2 squads of 8 Crushers against his Paladin squad, on Turn 2 no less?

- Your 8-man units have a huge Deep Strike footprint. The more aggressive you get with your deployment, the greater chance that your units will mishap and not show up at all. So to get a turn 2 assault, you'll need to get lucky with both DS and run moves. This is ignoring the fact that (if I'm not mistaken) Blackmoor is still running a 10-man Interceptor squad which can combat squad and cover the pallies with warp quake.

- Paladins can move and shoot to full effectiveness. Crushers can't charge an enemy who starts their turn more than 12" away (not counting the possibility of failing a DT test). Unless he runs out of board, why wouldn't he move out of assault range on his turn? Every turn he kites you is more dead Crushers, Fateweaver or no. Or, more likely, it buys him time to kill the birdy. Every turn of shooting from 10 Pallies with 4 psycannons, psybolts, Draigo and a Libby will put 13-14 wounds on Fateweaver, of which he will fail 1 in 9, or 1.5ish failed saves a turn. That's about 2 turns of shooting, assuming he doesn't fail Ld and fly away.

- "If I sensed a major loss in positioning I would correct it with my Bloodthirster. He moves 12," and assaults 6", and loves to butcher Paladins." Really? Your solution would be to tie them up with a single model, who will die before the Crushers reach combat, probably in a single round? On average, the full squad plus characters would do 24 wounds to him, which is enough to kill him even assuming the 2++.

- If I were Blackmoor, I'd keep myself within charge range of one squad of Crushers, while staying away from the rest. This forces you to either attack him piecemeal, let him charge, or allow him to continue to kite you.

I haven't even touched on your actual combat numbers yet. I might math hammer it out, but not right now.

Roboute,

Not to be rude, but I just love it when Grey Knight fan boyz are shocked to find out I can usually table their army with my Chaos Daemons. And I sincerely mean that, I have never lost to Grey Knights with my Chaos Daemons, not even close. And I play them all the time.
You would have to specifically tailor your Draigo Wing list to beat my Fatecrusher Daemons. I know, I have been in the trenches with both armies, and I know how it plays out. My sense is you (and Blackmoor) have never faced a skilled Chaos Daemon player running Fatecrusher. You can theory hammer things all you want, but when it ultimately comes down to it, Paladins can not handle large units of Bloodcrushers in close combat, especially when supported by a Blood Thirster with Blessing.

Stating things like I will just back up and shoot big bird, or throw my Psyriflemen at your Bloodcrushers, are mickey mouse tactics that reek of desperation. I know easy counters to all of these things, and when it ultimately comes down to it, the assault results between the Paladins and the Crusher deathstar is going to be the most signficant factor. The Paladins just aren't going to win that battle.

Crusaderobr wrote:Beating the 2k Draigo list is easy. I will just melta them with 3 full man Fire Dragon squads in Wave Serpents. GG. Of course ill support them with the rest of my army, but you get the idea of what will happen, I dont even need to post the list. Whoever plays that list should play a new game, Clay fighters for Sega Genesis would probably be a more constructive and suitable game for his/her skill level.

Thats just rediculous - yes 10 fire dragons hurt paladins but if you think your going to get to shoot all 30 and table the army in 1 volley your sadly mistaken against any half decent player.
Your flame bait comment was not needed either.

I can guarantee your serpents carrying the dragons are target 1 for my storm ravens and once they are on the ground, dragons are so much psybait. Even if you down the SR i get a 3++ cover save thanks to shrouding...

10 shots is only 1.85 wounds after a 3++ save... and i can drop that on draigo and maybe loose a paladin. So after your 30 shots i may loose 3-4 paladins from my 10 plus 2 characters... and your guaranteed within 12"... draigo will kill one unit by himself...

Its by no means a sure thing like you think it is

I think it would be prudent at this point to let you know Blackmoor is big on the tournament scene and places very well with Paladins at large events. To assume he doesn't come across good Daemon players would probably be a bad assumption.

@ NoArmorSave...

No one has mentioned the GK psychic power Dark Excommunication yet which completely nerfs both the greater daemon and Bloodcrushers. You say you have done well versus Draigowing - I believe you but that does not equate to FateCrusher spam > Draigowing. It could for simply be that your wins have come against less experienced players fielding suboptimal lists. I have played both armies extensively winning tournies with both and am of the opinion that a well designed Draigowing army has all of the advantages.

Massaen wrote:

Crusaderobr wrote:Beating the 2k Draigo list is easy. I will just melta them with 3 full man Fire Dragon squads in Wave Serpents. GG. Of course ill support them with the rest of my army, but you get the idea of what will happen, I dont even need to post the list. Whoever plays that list should play a new game, Clay fighters for Sega Genesis would probably be a more constructive and suitable game for his/her skill level.

Thats just rediculous - yes 10 fire dragons hurt paladins but if you think your going to get to shoot all 30 and table the army in 1 volley your sadly mistaken against any half decent player.
Your flame bait comment was not needed either.

I can guarantee your serpents carrying the dragons are target 1 for my storm ravens and once they are on the ground, dragons are so much psybait. Even if you down the SR i get a 3++ cover save thanks to shrouding...

10 shots is only 1.85 wounds after a 3++ save... and i can drop that on draigo and maybe loose a paladin. So after your 30 shots i may loose 3-4 paladins from my 10 plus 2 characters... and your guaranteed within 12"... draigo will kill one unit by himself...

Its by no means a sure thing like you think it is

It is definetely not a sure thing. If the Fire Dragons are allowed to unload 30 Melta Shots onto the Paladin squad, there will not be much left of that Paladin squad, even with a 3++ save. There is a good chance it will be completely wiped out along with Draigo and
the Librarian, or just horribly gimped.

With that being said, if the Grey Knight player has a balanced list, it will be really tough for the Eldar player.

2-3 Psyriflemen dreads will likely blow up 2 Waveserpents\turn. Additional Psycannons and Stormbolters will kill the Fire Dragons inside.
It is going to come down to who goes first, positioning, taking advantage of cover, and player experience.

NoArmorSave wrote:It is definetely not a sure thing. If the Fire Dragons are allowed to unload 30 Melta Shots onto the Paladin squad, there will not be much left of that Paladin squad, even with a 3++ save. There is a good chance it will be completely wiped out along with Draigo and
the Librarian, or just horribly gimped.

You might want to re-think that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/418342.page

Ok, here we go.

Assumptions:
- 10x Paladins, including stave, banner, 2x swords and 6x halberds. Fully equipped for wound allocation. Draigo gives countercharge.
- Draigo
- Librarian with stave, no Dark Ex

- 2x8 Crushers, with Fury, Icon, Musician and 5x regular BCs
-Thirster with BotBG

Pregame:

- Before combat, libby casts Sanctuary. All Daemon units make their roll to enter CC (if they're all right at 6", not likely).
- Bloodcrushers suffer 1.19 unsaved wounds from dangerous terrain. Thirster has a 4% chance to suffer a wound, we'll ignore that.
- Hammerhand goes off 3 times, everyone is S7.
- Daemon players gets the BC into combat with the squad. Some Crushers are engaged with Draigo and the libby, but they'll be taken out first so we'll assume most of the surviving Crushers will get to smack on the paladins.

Paladins Attack Crushers:
36 NFW attacks, 27 hits, 22.5 wounds, 10 unsaved wounds after Inv re-roll
4 Banner attacks: 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 0.28 unsaved wounds after armor re-roll
Draigo 4 attacks, 3.3 hits, 2.7 wounds, 1.2 unsaved wounds after Inv re-roll
Libby 2 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.56 wounds after Inv re-roll

12.04 wounds on the Crushers, 13.23 wounds with the dangerous terrain factored in

Total combat res against Daemons: 12

To be very generous, these are split evenly (6 and 7) between the squads and allocated perfectly. Three crushers are dead (one and two), and seven Crushers are wounded. The Crushers take 7 Daemonbane tests at Ld10, and they have a 58% chance of failing at least one. Since we were so generous before, we'll assume that one more Crusher dies, leaving 12 to attack back, along with the Bloodthirster. We'll be generous again and assume that the dead Crushers were mainly taken from those attacking Draigo and the Libby, leaving only one Crusher each engaged with these two. This leaves 10 Crushers to smack on the Paladins.

Daemons counterattack. Since these are all at Initiative 1, they'll be allocated in one huge batch.

Thirster 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3.33 ID wounds
10 Crushers on Paladins 40 attacks, 20 hits, 16.67 wounds

Allocation time! 20 wounds, including 3 ID wounds, all one batch here.

Stave takes 2 ID wounds, 0.33 unsaved wounds
A Sword takes 1 ID wound and 1 wound, 1.5 unsaved wounds (including the chance for the ID wound to double)
The other sword takes 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound
Banner takes 2 wounds, 1.33 unsaved wounds
6 paladins remaining take 2 wounds each, 8 unsaved wounds and about 2 dead paladins (each paladin has a 2/3 chance to make at least one save)

1 Crusher on Draigo 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 unsaved wounds
1 Crusher on Libby 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 0.28 unsaved wounds

Total combat res against Paladins: 8.72

The Results:

- Paladins win combat by 3, probably. Each Daemon unit takes 3 armor saves, with a 1/3 chance of failing one, with the re-roll. So between all three squads, there will probably be one more wound caused thanks to No Retreat! We'll assume it's on the Thirster since that won't have any effect on the next combat.

- Paladins lost 3-4 models, probably, although this will vary greatly and requires complicated statistics and distributions to chart properly. They'll be attacking back next round with 21-ish attacks, plus Draigo and the Libby. There's a 1/3 chance that the banner died, reducing them to a paltry 14 attacks. there's a 1/3 chance that the stave died, leaving them unable to reliably soak wounds from the Thirster. Regardless, most of their wound allocation is probably used up, meaning further wounds will have a greater effect on them.

- Daemons lost 4 models, conservatively, but all of their wound allocation is used up. Further wounds will have a greater effect on them. They'll be attacking back next round with 36 attacks, plus the Thirster. These are only S5 now, so they won't wound as easily.

- Next turn is the GK player's turn, and he'll be using Quicksilver to once again hit first with everyone. His units will again be S7. I don't feel like doing a whole second round of math, but I'm guessing that the GKs' ability to strike first will result in more Crushers dying and then more Paladins dying. Even lower numbers of Crushers are nasty.

Conclusion:
Yeah, Bloodcrushers are nasty. Fateweaver re-rolls make them way nastier. If you give them optimal conditions (and these are really, truly optimal conditions), then it will be a bloodbath on both sides. The combat will be drawn out, allowing for counter charges on both sides, and creating more room for luck to play into things. What does this mean? No side has a clear statistical advantage in this particular match-up, and it will come down to generalship.

Against Blackmoor, I wouldn't count on these optimal conditions. Without this particular 3-unit combi-charge, the Paladins can really put a hurting on the Daemon player again and again with few casualties. I'd place my money on the Draigowing army in this situation. However, IMO that's because a 24-Crusher army isn't the optimal Fatecrusher list, and is more of a noobhammer that hard counters a bunch of lists than a true TAC list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

NoArmorSave wrote:Roboute,

Not to be rude, but I just love it when Grey Knight fan boyz are shocked to find out I can usually table their army with my Chaos Daemons. And I sincerely mean that, I have never lost to Grey Knights with my Chaos Daemons, not even close. And I play them all the time.
You would have to specifically tailor your Draigo Wing list to beat my Fatecrusher Daemons. I know, I have been in the trenches with both armies, and I know how it plays out. My sense is you (and Blackmoor) have never faced a skilled Chaos Daemon player running Fatecrusher. You can theory hammer things all you want, but when it ultimately comes down to it, Paladins can not handle large units of Bloodcrushers in close combat, especially when supported by a Blood Thirster with Blessing.

Stating things like I will just back up and shoot big bird, or throw my Psyriflemen at your Bloodcrushers, are mickey mouse tactics that reek of desperation. I know easy counters to all of these things, and when it ultimately comes down to it, the assault results between the Paladins and the Crusher deathstar is going to be the most signficant factor. The Paladins just aren't going to win that battle.

NoArmorSave,

Not to be rude, but it's easy to be a big fish in a small pond. There are a lot of Grey Knight fan boyz out there who bring their shiny Paladins and don't know how to play them. I wouldn't be surprised at all to watch you table 9/10ths of Draigowing players out there. But that's because there are a lot of them, and they aren't very good. Grey Knights are a popular army and have a lot of forgiving choices in their list. I'd place myself into that category, because I don't have enough firsthand experience with my Draigowing army to be truly competitive.

Blackmoor is different. He hasn't just played all his local GK scrubs and won a few local tourneys. He plays across the country in the most competitive environments possible. His list also plays to the strength of the entire GK codex, using supporting units like Interceptors to complement his deathstar. Your list might fare differently against an opponent of equal or better caliber generalship.

"Stating things like I will just back up and shoot big bird, or throw my Psyriflemen at your Bloodcrushers, are mickey mouse tactics that reek of desperation. I know easy counters to all of these things, and when it ultimately comes down to it, the assault results between the Paladins and the Crusher deathstar is going to be the most signficant factor. The Paladins just aren't going to win that battle."

And stating things like I will get a turn 2 assault on your Paladins with multiple Crusher units and my Thirster isn't a naive assumption to make against an opponent of Blackmoor's caliber? What are these easy counters you speak of? You're doing a lot of "no, you're wrong" without a lot of "this is why it won't work." Because you really, really need that multiple assault to even survive to strike back against a full paladin deathstar. And this isn't even taking the rest of both armies into account. Your 2 HQs and the 2 Crusher units we've been working with cost about as much as a Draigostar. How do the rest of both armies handle themselves?

I'm not saying that your list will fail against Draigowing. It's a strong list that has massive durability from spamming tough units. I'm just saying it's foolish to dismiss an army like Blackmoor's Draigowing out of hand.