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wow jy2 I got carried away. I guess weaken resolve then force morale and stuff...nowhere close to as scary though.

jy2 wrote:

Clauss wrote:So to counter Draigowing..has anyone considered IG psyker squads+ tank shock...I feel that like would be auto win. Even just 2 squads of them would ensure you would get the cast off with the superior range. use chimeras to tank shock..reduce leadership.
GG? weaken resolve seems super powerful right about now
Or did i miss this earlier in the thread...

No, it doesn't work. Tank-shock is done during Movement. Weaken Resolve in Shooting after tanks have already moved....

When playing IG Vs. Draigo Wing, Medusa's will cause a major problem. Especially if the IG player is fielding 3+ of them.
3x ST10 AP2 pie plates, supported by lots of Melta in Chimeras. Add a dash of Lascannon on the side (Vendettas), and you
may very well have a bunch of tabled Paladins.

NoArmorSave wrote:
When playing IG Vs. Draigo Wing, Medusa's will cause a major problem. Especially if the IG player is fielding 3+ of them.
3x ST10 AP2 pie plates, supported by lots of Melta in Chimeras. Add a dash of Lascannon on the side (Vendettas), and you
may very well have a bunch of tabled Paladins.

You're probably right, though for some strange reason, I fear 3 manticores more. Death by volume, don't need LOS and makes for a better Take-All-comer's list.

jy2 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
When playing IG Vs. Draigo Wing, Medusa's will cause a major problem. Especially if the IG player is fielding 3+ of them.
3x ST10 AP2 pie plates, supported by lots of Melta in Chimeras. Add a dash of Lascannon on the side (Vendettas), and you
may very well have a bunch of tabled Paladins.

You're probably right, though for some strange reason, I fear 3 manticores more. Death by volume, don't need LOS and makes for a better Take-All-comer's list.

The issue with Manticores is they can't be squadroned. So if you take 3, that's all your precious HS slots.

The issue with Medusas is their armor is made of paper and they aren't strong TAC choices.

Against Paladins, I would be more inclined to run LR Demolishers. Same S10 AP2 pie plate, on an AV 14 chassis. Side benefits include a lascannon and possibly 2 multi-meltas if you're feeling cheeky. Demolishers are one of the stronger LRBT loadouts, too, so they'll perform against just about anyone.

Leafblower IG lists are definitely one of the toughest matchups for Draigowing, though. Too much double-T, AP2 shooting to handle, particularly from Vendettas that can avoid allowing the Paladins a cover save, for the most part.

They drop d3 pieplates though - IG only needs one. I play against a guy who brings two Manticores and two PSB... Always a fun game.

Roboute wrote:

jy2 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
When playing IG Vs. Draigo Wing, Medusa's will cause a major problem. Especially if the IG player is fielding 3+ of them.
3x ST10 AP2 pie plates, supported by lots of Melta in Chimeras. Add a dash of Lascannon on the side (Vendettas), and you
may very well have a bunch of tabled Paladins.

You're probably right, though for some strange reason, I fear 3 manticores more. Death by volume, don't need LOS and makes for a better Take-All-comer's list.

The issue with Manticores is they can't be squadroned. So if you take 3, that's all your precious HS slots.

The issue with Medusas is their armor is made of paper and they aren't strong TAC choices.

Against Paladins, I would be more inclined to run LR Demolishers. Same S10 AP2 pie plate, on an AV 14 chassis. Side benefits include a lascannon and possibly 2 multi-meltas if you're feeling cheeky. Demolishers are one of the stronger LRBT loadouts, too, so they'll perform against just about anyone.

Leafblower IG lists are definitely one of the toughest matchups for Draigowing, though. Too much double-T, AP2 shooting to handle, particularly from Vendettas that can avoid allowing the Paladins a cover save, for the most part.

I would actually be inclined to choose a squadron of 3 Medusa's over a Leman Russ Demolisher. The Medusa's have a 36" range on their pie plates, as opposed to 24" on the Demolisher, and can be fielded in squadrons of 3 for 1 HS slot.
Also, they can be upgraded with Bastion Breacher Shells for 5 Pts each. These are 48" ST10 AP1 small blasts that always get a bonus die for armor pen; perfect for taking out any armor in the game or killing any type of GK beyond 36".

NoArmorSave wrote:I would actually be inclined to choose a squadron of 3 Medusa's over a Leman Russ Demolisher. The Medusa's have a 36" range on their pie plates, as opposed to 24" on the Demolisher, and can be fielded in squadrons of 3 for 1 HS slot.
Also, they can be upgraded with Bastion Breacher Shells for 5 Pts each. These are 48" ST10 AP1 small blasts that always get a bonus die for armor pen; perfect for taking out any armor in the game or killing any type of GK beyond 36".

Leman Russes can also be taken in squadrons of up to 3. The Medusas have a 36" range, but most ranged anti-tank is at least 36" anyways. They have to fire direct, unlike all other artillery, so they can't hide as well. And squadrons of open-topped AV12 are ridiculously easy to suppress, as multiple glancing or penetrating hits must be distributed amongst the squadron.

Bastion-breacher shells are actually a poor choice, because they replace the Medusa's normal ammo. They would be a great upgrade if they allowed a choice every turn, but instead they become ranged anti-tank in an army filled with great ranged anti-tank, and losing the pie-plate which is vital for taking out Paladins and other big units of tough infantry.

Leman Russes are more expensive, to be sure, but you're definitely making the points back in its durability. There are just other, better choices when it comes to artillery.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:I would actually be inclined to choose a squadron of 3 Medusa's over a Leman Russ Demolisher. The Medusa's have a 36" range on their pie plates, as opposed to 24" on the Demolisher, and can be fielded in squadrons of 3 for 1 HS slot.
Also, they can be upgraded with Bastion Breacher Shells for 5 Pts each. These are 48" ST10 AP1 small blasts that always get a bonus die for armor pen; perfect for taking out any armor in the game or killing any type of GK beyond 36".

Leman Russes can also be taken in squadrons of up to 3. The Medusas have a 36" range, but most ranged anti-tank is at least 36" anyways. They have to fire direct, unlike all other artillery, so they can't hide as well. And squadrons of open-topped AV12 are ridiculously easy to suppress, as multiple glancing or penetrating hits must be distributed amongst the squadron.

Bastion-breacher shells are actually a poor choice, because they replace the Medusa's normal ammo. They would be a great upgrade if they allowed a choice every turn, but instead they become ranged anti-tank in an army filled with great ranged anti-tank, and losing the pie-plate which is vital for taking out Paladins and other big units of tough infantry.

Leman Russes are more expensive, to be sure, but you're definitely making the points back in its durability. There are just other, better choices when it comes to artillery.

When talking about IG Vs. Draigo Wing, the difference between 24" and 36" is quite significant when you are facing Psycannon spam. A bunch of Psycannons can blow up AV14 if they rend. Beyond 24", the only thing threatening the Medusa's would be
Psyriflemen, or occasionally a Vindicare. When facing Paladins, using AP3+ weaponry, even Pie Plates, is largely futile.

Camo Netting is also a really good upgrade for Medusa's. If you position things correctly, you can ensure they always have a 3+ cover save.

Bastion Breacher Shells: Could actually be really useful if there is a lot of Mech in your local meta. 3 ST10 AP1 48" blasts that roll an extra dice for armor penetration is nothing to sneeze at. One volley of these (3 blasts) will put a lot of pain on a Paladin squad as well, even if they aren't pie plates. In addition, if you did go the Bastion Breacher route, you still have 2 other HS slots for different Pie Plate options.

I wouldn't spam Medusa's, but I certainly think you can run 3 in 1 HS slot in a competitive list. Especially with all of the GK players out there.

Blackmoor wrote:As the foremost Draigowing expert I will tell you that a well built Grey Knight army that is centered around 10 paladins is very formidable no matter what you are using against it.

Remember that even though all of these armies that people here are talking about have all these nice tools to kill paladins, they are killing whatever can kill them right back. So do not think that it will be all that easy to get rid of them. Of course if you play against bad players, like most of the people here who are offering insights, you can do almost anything and win.

Now as far at the OP answer goes you have the right tools to beat him. No, the answer is not to go out and buy a Dark Eldar or Necron army, but the hardest army for Paladins to beat is Grey Knights.

If you have stormravens (or land raiders) you are going to be faster than him and you can get the charge. Whoever assaults in a Grey Knight on Grey Knight game wins. The reason why is with psych out grenades you get to strike first. So take your mindstrike missiles and snipe his librarian and take it out with some perils of the warp tests. You do not want a psychic hood around blocking your psychic powers. You then assault him with 10 purifiers and a librarian. Do not use a lot of heavy weapons in your purifier squad because you will need to swing a lot of force weapons. Then your librarian casts Hammerhand and Might of Titans to crank you up to strength 6, and have at it! Then you cast force weapon from the purifier squad to insta-kill them. You are testing on LD8, so you have a good chance at getting it off (if there are any dreadnaughts nearby be sure to take them out or your force weapon test will be on LD5).

I usually do run two stormravens in my list. How can you snipe the libby with the MSM? I've only been playing heavily for a couple of months now. My understanding is that if the libby is part of a unit of termies even if you hit the libby dead on your opponent can allocate the POTW to the termie unit. If I'm mistaken about the mechanics here please tell me what section/page in the rule book spells that out as I'm sure to get some questions on it when I try it - and I will try it! (unless they already know it and I'm just unfamiliar with the rule).

Well, the Mindstrike Missile entry is pretty straightforward : any psyker hit is subject to perils. You allocate wounds, not hits, so that's out of the way.
About perils of the warp, the rulebook is also clear : p.50 "The psyker suffers one wound", which would indicate it skips any hypothetical allocation phase. And anyway, it's not caused by shooting or melee attacks, which are the only ones you are explicitly allowed to allocate.

necron99 wrote:I usually do run two stormravens in my list. How can you snipe the libby with the MSM? I've only been playing heavily for a couple of months now. My understanding is that if the libby is part of a unit of termies even if you hit the libby dead on your opponent can allocate the POTW to the termie unit. If I'm mistaken about the mechanics here please tell me what section/page in the rule book spells that out as I'm sure to get some questions on it when I try it - and I will try it! (unless they already know it and I'm just unfamiliar with the rule).

The wording under mindstrike missiles states that "any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects." So when you center the blast marker on the librarian and it doesn't scatter, the librarian is hit by Perils. Perils is not a shooting attack, so it isn't allocated like a shooting attack (although any wounds caused by the S4 blast can be allocated to the squad normally). The librarian was the one hit by it, so the librarian takes the Perils. If you can get it so that the librarian and a squad member are both under the template, all the better, as the paladin squad will be taking Perils too.

If the wording was "any psyker wounded by a mindstrike missile" or something similar, then the Perils would be determined after wounds are allocated and thus they could be distributed to the squad. As it stands, whoever is under the template takes the Perils.

One point I'm not clear on is what happens to a Paladin squad hit by multiple mindstrikes. Since the squad has no leader, the Perils are distributed randomly. Is each Perils distributed to a random squad member, or is one squad member randomly chosen to receive all the Perils?

For the sake of arguements the entire squad is considered a psyker so thats a lot of perils. lol

NoArmorSave wrote:When talking about IG Vs. Draigo Wing, the difference between 24" and 36" is quite significant when you are facing Psycannon spam. A bunch of Psycannons can blow up AV14 if they rend. Beyond 24", the only thing threatening the Medusa's would be Psyriflemen. When facing Paladins, using AP3+ weaponry, even Pie Plates, is largely futile.

Camo Netting is also a really good upgrade for Medusa's. If you position things correctly, you can ensure they always have a 3+ cover save.

Bastion Breacher Shells: Could actually be really useful if there is a lot of Mech in your local meta. 3 ST10 AP1 48" blasts that roll an extra dice for armor penetration is nothing to sneeze at. One volley of these (3 blasts) will put a lot of pain on a Paladin squad as well, even if they aren't pie plates. In addition, if you did go the Bastion Breacher route, you still have 2 other HS slots for different Pie Plate options.

I wouldn't spam Medusa's, but I certainly think you can run 3 in 1 HS slot in a competitive list. Especially with all of the GK players out there.

Fair points. I was referring to LR Demolishers when talking about squadroning up, and you may have misunderstood that given your comment about AP3+ weaponry.

As far as range vs. durability goes, Medusas are indeed less vulnerable to psycannons. They are much more vulnerable to psyflemen, though, despite probably having a cover save. Psyfleman don't pose a credible threat to Demolishers, because they can only glance AV14 on a 6. I see it as a trade-off.

As far as Bastion-breacher shells go, if you're playing against a Paladin deathstar and he doesn't space his models out so you can only hit one with the small blast ... he deserves what he gets. You've brought up some good points about the viability of Medusas with camo netting vs. Paladins, but I would still take them without bastion-breachers. S10 ordnance is strong enough vs. vehicles, and 36" range is ok when your cover is a wall of Chimeras full of meltavets (as I assume we're talking about a mech list here).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:For the sake of arguements the entire squad is considered a psyker so thats a lot of perils. lol

Since the whole squad combined counts as a psyker, any Perils suffered are allocated to a random member of the squad if there is no Justicar or Knight of the Flame present, as per the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. So each Paladin under the template will result in one Perils for a random squad member. There's really no room for argument there.

I know how the rule works. I just mentioned it because in your initial point you did not mention that and it has been made apparent not everyone knows the rule.

Wow, thanks for the clarification on POTW vs assaults vs shooting for wound allocation. That's the information I need to be able to produce as most people I play aren't used to having something other than bad rolls causing POTW - even another GK player.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:When talking about IG Vs. Draigo Wing, the difference between 24" and 36" is quite significant when you are facing Psycannon spam. A bunch of Psycannons can blow up AV14 if they rend. Beyond 24", the only thing threatening the Medusa's would be Psyriflemen. When facing Paladins, using AP3+ weaponry, even Pie Plates, is largely futile.

Camo Netting is also a really good upgrade for Medusa's. If you position things correctly, you can ensure they always have a 3+ cover save.

Bastion Breacher Shells: Could actually be really useful if there is a lot of Mech in your local meta. 3 ST10 AP1 48" blasts that roll an extra dice for armor penetration is nothing to sneeze at. One volley of these (3 blasts) will put a lot of pain on a Paladin squad as well, even if they aren't pie plates. In addition, if you did go the Bastion Breacher route, you still have 2 other HS slots for different Pie Plate options.

I wouldn't spam Medusa's, but I certainly think you can run 3 in 1 HS slot in a competitive list. Especially with all of the GK players out there.

Fair points. I was referring to LR Demolishers when talking about squadroning up, and you may have misunderstood that given your comment about AP3+ weaponry.

As far as range vs. durability goes, Medusas are indeed less vulnerable to psycannons. They are much more vulnerable to psyflemen, though, despite probably having a cover save. Psyfleman don't pose a credible threat to Demolishers, because they can only glance AV14 on a 6. I see it as a trade-off.

As far as Bastion-breacher shells go, if you're playing against a Paladin deathstar and he doesn't space his models out so you can only hit one with the small blast ... he deserves what he gets. You've brought up some good points about the viability of Medusas with camo netting vs. Paladins, but I would still take them without bastion-breachers. S10 ordnance is strong enough vs. vehicles, and 36" range is ok when your cover is a wall of Chimeras full of meltavets (as I assume we're talking about a mech list here).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
]For the sake of arguements the entire squad is considered a psyker so thats a lot of perils. lol

"As far as Bastion-breacher shells go, if you're playing against a Paladin deathstar and he doesn't space his models out so you can only hit one with the small blast ... he deserves what he gets."

The small blast marker is 3". The Paladin's can not be more than 2" apart because of coherency. Each small blast will likely hit 2-3 Paladins. I think a volley of Bastion-breacher shells is very nasty, it really depends on your local
meta as far as what is best. I would agree that the default ST10 AP2 pie plate is best in most circumstances, but it sure is nice being able to go to an essentially 48" ST10 meltagun for 5pts.

I am thinking Chimeras filled with Meltavets for cover. A bunch of meltaguns firing at Paladins can do nasty things.

NoArmorSave wrote:

The small blast marker is 3". The Paladin's can not be more than 2" apart because of coherency. Each small blast will likely hit 2-3 Paladins. I think a volley of Bastion-breacher shells is very nasty, it really depends on your local
meta as far as what is best. I would agree that the default ST10 AP2 pie plate is best in most circumstances, but it sure is nice being able to go to an essentially 48" ST10 meltagun for 5pts.

The small blast marker is 3" in DIAMETER. Since it has to be centered on a model, you can only get a maximum of 1.5" (radius) on each side, which means that any unit in maximum coherence distance will only ever have one model hit by a small blast marker if you don't scatter. You might hit two if you scatter in between two models.

A large blast, by contrast, is 5" in diameter, so if you aim for a Paladin who's flanked on both sides, you're guaranteed a minimum of three hits without scatter, and almost certain to get two even if you do scatter.

Terminators due to their large bases you can't fit as many under a template. If they are all spaced out 2" apart at most you can get one with the small blast.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

The small blast marker is 3". The Paladin's can not be more than 2" apart because of coherency. Each small blast will likely hit 2-3 Paladins. I think a volley of Bastion-breacher shells is very nasty, it really depends on your local
meta as far as what is best. I would agree that the default ST10 AP2 pie plate is best in most circumstances, but it sure is nice being able to go to an essentially 48" ST10 meltagun for 5pts.

The small blast marker is 3" in DIAMETER. Since it has to be centered on a model, you can only get a maximum of 1.5" (radius) on each side, which means that any unit in maximum coherence distance will only ever have one model hit by a small blast marker if you don't scatter. You might hit two if you scatter in between two models.

A large blast, by contrast, is 5" in diameter, so if you aim for a Paladin who's flanked on both sides, you're guaranteed a minimum of three hits without scatter, and almost certain to get two even if you do scatter.

Dude, a small blast that lands on target is going to hit more than 1 Paladin. Paladin's are on 40mm bases. Take a small blast template right now, and put it over the center of a 40mm base. Do you see the massive area it threatens outside of the base? If they are close together (for a myriad of reasons), you could potentially hit seven (7) of them with 1 small blast. My experience in actual gameplay, are that very few generals keep their units at maximum coherency all game. There is so much going on, it is a very easy thing to overlook, even for a tournament player. Addtionally, terrain and other models on the table can prevent the entire squad from being at maximum coherency.

Blackmoor has declared himself "the foremost Draigowing expert" in this thread. Let's study the formation and coherency that a Draigowing expert keeps his Paladins in during a game. These pictures are taken from a tournament battle report that Blackmoor posted here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/422339.page

He deepstrikes his Paladins in by several objectives on turn 3 to contest them. You can go back and fourth on "I would have done this, he would have done that, etc". For the purposes of this exercise, let's pretend and see how vulnerable the Paladins would have been to the 3 ST10 AP1 blasts coming from the Medusa's (instead of Cyclone Terminators).

At the top of turn 4 (his opponents turn), this is what his Paladin formation looked like. Notice he is not in cover, and most of the opponents army has unrestricted LOS to his Paladin deathstar. His Paladins are certainly not 2" apart, they are all clumped together!
If I was targeting this unit with Medusa's using Bastion-breacher shells (instead of Cyclone Terminators), and all of the small blasts landed on target (or even scattered 1-2" in this case), each blast would hit 7 Paladins.
Let's roll it out real quick just for fun. We will say we got hits on the 3 blasts (or slight scatters).
Roll to wound (21); need 2's: 2,1,5,1,2,2,6,5,5,3,6,6,2,5,1,1,6,4,2,1,6 = 16 Wounds
Allocate: 2 to Draigo, 1 to Librarian, 13 to various other Paladins
Roll to save: Draigo = 4,6 Librarian= 2 (Dead), Paladins = 2,6,4,1,1,5,1,2,5,6,3,6,1 (8 Dead)
Net Result = dead Librarian, 8 Dead Paladins




This is what his Paladin formation looks like at the top of turn 5 (his opponents turn). I would easily be able to catch 3 Paladins per small blast, by targeting the models on the far left:




Opponent turn 6. I can catch 2 per small blast, no problem:




End of turn 7. I can catch 2 per small blast, by targeting the pair on the far bottom left hand side:




Final Obervation & Analysis: As I have stated many times in this thread (and so have several others), Paladin's are extremely vulnerable to S8+ AP2 weaponry. S8+ AP2 small & large blasts are utterly devastating.

I did not realize that I was facing a colossus in that game. If I was I might have deployed differently and spread out a little bit.

I could show you the game I played 3 rounds earlier against IG and because of his demolisher I might not have been as carefree with my spacing.

As a keen tournament player myself I can tell you when I play vs armies with blast capabilities I always spread out. It's the kind of mistake you make once, because once is enough to lose you a game.

I think when blackmoor declared himself the expert he was gonna get some less then flattering comments by some. It's the nature of the beast and you will get scrutinized for it.

But any who I agree with lukus.

Blackmoor wrote:I did not realize that I was facing a colossus in that game. If I was I might have deployed differently and spread out a little bit.

I could show you the game I played 3 rounds earlier against IG and because of his demolisher I might not have been as carefree with my spacing.

Might not have been, woulda, coulda, shoulda. All it would take is one spacing screw up, and we have ourselves a bunch of blown up Paladins and chunks
of Terminator armor all over the place.

You pointing out he didn't space out in a game where there were no blasts doesn't really prove your point NAS.

They woulda, coulda, shoulda had templates and blasts in their list...

but they didn't.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I did not realize that I was facing a colossus in that game. If I was I might have deployed differently and spread out a little bit.

I could show you the game I played 3 rounds earlier against IG and because of his demolisher I might not have been as carefree with my spacing.

Might not have been, woulda, coulda, shoulda. All it would take is one spacing screw up, and we have ourselves a bunch of blown up Paladins and chunks
of Terminator armor all over the place.

If all I was facing in that game was one Colossus, I wouldn't space out either. It doesn't have sufficient strength to ID Paladins, and doesn't pierce their armor.

With regard to small blasts and spacing, you do realize that the center hole of the blast marker has to be over the base of the model you target, right? The small blast template is 3" diameter, so if the center hole is over the base that means the template can only reach 1.5" off the target's base, maximum. Maximum range: 1.5". Maximum unit coherency: 2". Maximum number of models hit at maximum coherency: One. It's exceedingly simple math.

If terminators are spaced out all 2" apart the most the small blast can cover is one 40 mm base.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I did not realize that I was facing a colossus in that game. If I was I might have deployed differently and spread out a little bit.

I could show you the game I played 3 rounds earlier against IG and because of his demolisher I might not have been as carefree with my spacing.

Might not have been, woulda, coulda, shoulda. All it would take is one spacing screw up, and we have ourselves a bunch of blown up Paladins and chunks
of Terminator armor all over the place.

If all I was facing in that game was one Colossus, I wouldn't space out either. It doesn't have sufficient strength to ID Paladins, and doesn't pierce their armor.

With regard to small blasts and spacing, you do realize that the center hole of the blast marker has to be over the base of the model you target, right? The small blast template is 3" diameter, so if the center hole is over the base that means the template can only reach 1.5" off the target's base, maximum. Maximum range: 1.5". Maximum unit coherency: 2". Maximum number of models hit at maximum coherency: One. It's exceedingly simple math.

Dude....... Now we are just desperately grasping at straws.

"If all I was facing in that game was one Colossus, I wouldn't space out either. It doesn't have sufficient strength to ID Paladins, and doesn't pierce their armor."
A - It is still sloppy playing. The extra Paladins hit could potentially suffer more wounds over it. Blackmoor calls himself "the foremost Draigo Wing expert". If that is the case, he should be displaying a perfect and impeccable play style at all times.
B - It develops bad habits to be sloppy with coherency in one game, and than claim you will suddenly have mastery over coherency in another because the blasts are stronger.
C - There was also an additional reason for him to have better coherency in this game. His Paladins were between 2 different objectives. They would have had better control over the situation if they were spaced the maximum 2" toward each
objective. It was a tactical mistake for them to be in this type of coherency & formation relative to the objectives.

"With regard to small blasts and spacing, you do realize that the center hole of the blast marker has to be over the base of the model you target, right? The small blast template is 3" diameter, so if the center hole is over the base that means the template can only reach 1.5" off the target's base, maximum. Maximum range: 1.5". Maximum unit coherency: 2". Maximum number of models hit at maximum coherency: One. It's exceedingly simple math."

You are repeating yourself here. We just wen't over this very clearly in my above post. If the template is over the center of the 40mm based model, and if it does not scatter, and if all of the models surrounding are at maximum coherency, it will hit 1 model.
However, if the template is over the center of the 40mm based model, and if it does not scatter, it can hit up to 6 additional surrounding models that are not in maximum coherency. So, the # of model's hit will range between 1 and 7.
As clearly demonstrated, even "the foremost Draigo Wing expert" rarely keeps all of his models at maximum coherency. There wasn't a turn in the game where I couldn't hit at least 2 models with a small blast, and could usually hit at least 3 per small blast.


I don't believe there is anything more to be said on this. You can try to defend your man because I caught him with his pants down, but it is not going to change anything.


Learnings:
1 - Both small and large blasts rated at S8+ AP2 & AP1 are absolutely deadly to Paladins.
2 - Even seasoned tournament players don't maintain perfect unit coherency and formation at all times.


P.S. - 40K is largely a game of dice, and is also not exceptionally balanced from a rules & codex perspective. Let's not take ourselves to seriously and act like it is a matter of life and death. It should be a fun and relaxing hobby, and people should still be friends when talking tactics and after trying to destroy each other's toy soldiers on the table.

NoArmorSave wrote:
A - It is still sloppy playing. The extra Paladins hit could potentially suffer more wounds over it. Blackmoor calls himself "the foremost Draigo Wing expert". If that is the case, he sould be displaying a perfect and impeccable play style at all times.
B - It develops bad habits to be sloppy with coherency in one game, and than claim you will suddenly have mastery over coherency in another because the blasts are stronger.
C - There was also an additional reason for him to have better coherency in this game. His Paladins were between 2 different objectives. They would have had better control over the situation if they were spaced the maximum 2" toward each
objective. It was a minor tactical mistake for them to be in this type of coherency & formation relative to the objectives.

As clearly demonstrated, even "the foremost Draigo Wing expert" rarely keeps all of his models at maximum coherency. There wasn't a turn in the game where I couldn't hit at least 2 models with a small blast, and could usually hit at least 3 per small blast.


I don't believe there is anything more to be said on this. You can try to defend your man because I caught him with his pants down, but it is not going to change anything.


Learnings:
1 - Both small and large blasts rated at S8+ AP2 & AP1 are absolutely deadly to Paladins.
2 - Even seasoned tournament players don't maintain perfect unit coherency and formation at all times.

Really? So what you are saying is that you do not change tactics or strategy depending on your opponent?

Against Black Templar you want to be clumped together.
#1. You want him to shoot frag shots at you so you have to make a tempting target.
#2, I have to be very careful of assaults. He has 15 termintaors with powerfists and preferred enemy. I can't have my guys spread out all over the place and get assaulted and have models that can't attack back.
#3. There were no threats to me being clumped up.

If you think that you should always space your units out not matter what army you are facing, that explains why I am the foremost Draigowing expert and you do not understand how they should be played.

Blackmoor wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
A - It is still sloppy playing. The extra Paladins hit could potentially suffer more wounds over it. Blackmoor calls himself "the foremost Draigo Wing expert". If that is the case, he sould be displaying a perfect and impeccable play style at all times.
B - It develops bad habits to be sloppy with coherency in one game, and than claim you will suddenly have mastery over coherency in another because the blasts are stronger.
C - There was also an additional reason for him to have better coherency in this game. His Paladins were between 2 different objectives. They would have had better control over the situation if they were spaced the maximum 2" toward each
objective. It was a minor tactical mistake for them to be in this type of coherency & formation relative to the objectives.

As clearly demonstrated, even "the foremost Draigo Wing expert" rarely keeps all of his models at maximum coherency. There wasn't a turn in the game where I couldn't hit at least 2 models with a small blast, and could usually hit at least 3 per small blast.


I don't believe there is anything more to be said on this. You can try to defend your man because I caught him with his pants down, but it is not going to change anything.


Learnings:
1 - Both small and large blasts rated at S8+ AP2 & AP1 are absolutely deadly to Paladins.
2 - Even seasoned tournament players don't maintain perfect unit coherency and formation at all times.

Really? So what you are saying is that you do not change tactics or strategy depending on your opponent?

Against Black Templar you want to be clumped together.
#1. You want him to shoot frag shots at you so you have to make a tempting target.
#2, I have to be very careful of assaults. He has 15 termintaors with powerfists and preferred enemy. I can't have my guys spread out all over the place and get assaulted and have models that can't attack back.
#3. There were no threats to me being clumped up.

If you think that you should always space your units out not matter what army you are facing, that explains why I am the foremost Draigowing expert and you do not understand how they should be played.

Allan,

A post like this really makes me loose all respect for you. First of all, you call yourself "the foremost Draigo Wing expert". I point out several tactical mistakes you have made, and you are not even reasonable & man enough to admit it wasn't a perfectly
played game on your part.

"You want him to shoot frag shots at you so you have to make a tempting target."

Are you serious? You are seriously using this as an excuse as to why you clumped your Paladins? Your opponent is supposedly a high level player that has beat you in the past. He isn't going to shoot frags at your Paladins and you know it.


"I have to be very careful of assaults. He has 15 termintaors with powerfists and preferred enemy. I can't have my guys spread out all over the place and get assaulted and have models that can't attack back. "

Dude......First it was " I did not realize that I was facing a colossus", and now it is "I didn't want to get assaulted" from angles where it wouldn't have even been possible. The Paladins that were clumped could have easily been spread out to the sides. His largest threats were coming from the North & North West sections of the table


"There were no threats to me being clumped up."

Please don't work around the swear filter, it's there for good reason. Thanks.
Reds8n


There were blasts in his list, that is a threat no matter how you spin it. It was also suboptimal playing & displayed bad habits; if you want to be the world's best Grey Knight player.


"If you think that you should always space your units out not matter what army you are facing, that explains why I am the foremost Draigowing expert and you do not understand how they should be played."

In this particular situation, they should have been spread out in coherency; and if you were being honest you would agree. There are very good reasons for doing so, and by not doing it in this appropriate situation, it displayed
a weakness in your playstyle.


I am not trying to be an ass dude. But don't call yourself the world's #1 expert at something unless you can walk the walk. Being humble and letting other people talk about what a tactical genious you are at 40K goes much further.

You used those pictures to illustrate that a colossus would be devastating to me.

There was no colossus in that game, and there was absolutely no downside to being clumped up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NoArmorSave wrote:
"You want him to shoot frag shots at you so you have to make a tempting target."

Are you serious? You are seriously using this as an excuse as to why you clumped your Paladins? Your opponent is supposedly a high level player that has beat you in the past. He isn't going to shoot frags at your Paladins and you know it.



"There were no threats to me being clumped up."

Bulls hit. There were blasts in his list, that is a threat no matter how you spin it. It was also suboptimal playing & displayed bad habits; if you want to be the world's best Grey Knight player

Didn't you just contradict yourself? Should I be worried about Frags or shouldn't I?