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Joey wrote:Putting a heavy flamer on one would be silly. If it's not shooting at vehicles/MEQ, it's not doing its job. Maybe on turn 4/5 to rush an objective but I'd still rather have a multi-melta as a back-up.

Actually, if a Heavy Flamer can score twice as many hits against MEQs in cover, it is more effective. Given that a small blast template scores 2-3 hits on the high end, the flamer is often better. Plus, there are entire armies out there that have neither vehicles nor MEQs. Shocking, I'm sure.

DarkHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Putting a heavy flamer on one would be silly. If it's not shooting at vehicles/MEQ, it's not doing its job. Maybe on turn 4/5 to rush an objective but I'd still rather have a multi-melta as a back-up.

Actually, if a Heavy Flamer can score twice as many hits against MEQs in cover, it is more effective. Given that a small blast template scores 2-3 hits on the high end, the flamer is often better. Plus, there are entire armies out there that have neither vehicles nor MEQs. Shocking, I'm sure.

Yeah but 90% of my battles are against Mech BA. I'd love to play orks or nids so I could field different armies and have some variety but since I have the same opponent I have to tailor.

Joey wrote:Putting a heavy flamer on one would be silly. If it's not shooting at vehicles/MEQ, it's not doing its job.

The hull flamer is better.

Many horde and DoA drop armies don't have vehicles, and the small blast isn't big enough to cover a significant number of infantry targets. Tyranids don't have vehicles, and most of their monstrous creatures don't care if you put one wound on one MC with your str8 small blast (if you can even manage to hit). The flamer plus the 12" move makes the devil dog a serious threat to hordes, nid small bugs (and genestealers) and allows you to more wounds on more marine infantry than the small blast

Everybody talks about tank-shocking targets into bunches and then flaming them, but have you ever actually tried it? If you're close enough to drive 6" and flame them, they're close enough to have already assaulted you in the previous turn. Only vehicles that can move 12" and shoot can realistically flame a unit that has been tank-shocked (by another tank) into a clump.

Finally, even against mech armies, there's nearly always a point when all the good melta targets have run out, and there's just fifty billion disembarked space wolves or whatever running around the table. The flamer is better--especially if they're in cover--than the extra multimelta shot that's probably going to miss, or be negated by a cover save anyway.

And, really finally, I never move my devil dogs less than 6" anyway, so it never fires more than one weapon at a time. A DD moving 6" isn't picking the best targets or lining up the best shots, or defending itself adequately from assaults.

If you want a second melta shot as backup, take a second devil dog (with a hull flamer).

I'd rather the tank had some real anti-infantry capability. A second Multi-melta only makes it marginally better at killing tanks (at the cost of speed, mind you), while a Heavy Flamer more than doubles its effectiveness against infantry.

Having been on the other end of a Devil Dog, I will admit it is not the first target I go after, Usually will go after Vendettas, Russes first, but then I do try to take it out. If it presents itself as a juicy target I do take it out. When I quick look at the board it looks like a chimera, so sometimes I forget what it is. That being said, I have seen it hit itself with its own template.... However I have seen a squad of IG troops whiped out by their own demo charge.... I don't wanna name names but it happened to some poor soul here on dakka in one of our games... Cheers all.. Good post, I am surprised it is not discussed more. IG has options for 14 armour things, but many races 12 is the best that they get or if you are DE you fly around in cardboard boxes with fliker fields

Yeah, I've hit my devil dogs with their own templates before.

The sad/funny part is that you're always within 12" of yourself, so even a partial hit gets the 2d6.

Not to go too OT:
I had a friend that scattered his Bassy shot into itself, then blew up taking out his CCS Chimera that blew up and took out his
CCS. And I thought I had crap luck!

The moral is anything is possible. They are dice after all.
And whether it's Chimera or DD, you can talk yourself out of anything if you "what if" it enough.
One thing I think to consider about the DD that I haven't heard mentioned. I'd never squadron
a Vendetta. The DD variants would be less of a problem for me due to them being easier to hide.
I've never ran one, but I have 2 built, and 1 being painted atm.

I had a Medusa scatter back into itself, roll a Weapon Destroyed, but save the gun because it was an open topped vehicle. Who says +1 to the damage table is a bad thing?

DarkHound wrote:You imply that if a unit is not constantly the most threatening thing on the board it isn't worth taking. You entirely miss the point of target saturation: your opponent has finite resources, and his neglect of an element of your army is the lesser of two evils. A Demolisher may be more threatening than a Devil Dog, but effectiveness is relative to the price; Devil Dogs are cheaper, so can afford to be less effective.

It's not that it always needs to be the most threatening thing on the board, it's that it always needs to be a serious threat in order to not just be ignored. Having only a single BS3 shot, needing to be really close to get melta (without which its threat level goes in the toilet), and not getting other benefits like always hitting side armor, or the ordnance special rule, or ignoring cover or something, means that the threat level on this very expensive vehicle isn't very high. This means most of the time it will be ignored (except for if it just so happens to be a real threat to a rare opponent, who will have no time leveling it with something that can beat AV12).

As you say, for just a few more points you could have a demolisher which is much more effective for not a terrible price hike. That or you could take something with lascannons that is threatening turn 1 and every turn after in which it survives.

As for target saturation, if that's the only thing that you're taking the vehicle for, then that vehicle better be pretty damn cheap. Given that you can buy two chimeras with change for the price of a devil dog, it's easy to say that this can't be the vehicle's primary role when other options exist.

As for hull weapon, I'm sort of split, but I also fall more on the side of the flamer. Moving 6" a turn just to fire two short-range weapons seems to defeat the purpose of fast attack. I mean, I get it as an insurance policy, which makes it worth taking, but more only if you have points to spare, rather than a primary upgrade. As mentioned, there will still probably be targets for flamers, and don't forget that you can also ram. A 18" ram with a AV12 tank has the ability to do some serious damage.

I agree a squadron of those would be good, except the bad part about squadrons (immobilized is wrecked, until the last one). I squadron my War Walkers, Hornets, Wasps and if I run them Vypers all the time when I run them and have had good luck with them.

However if I played IG I would squadron 3 Leman Russ Punishers!!! 20 shot gun each x 3 (60 shots - wholly cow). These tanks could take out a squad of termies with the sheer amount of saves they need to make....

36" is "really close?"

Remember the range of the gun is 24" (not 12") and the tank can move 12" and shoot. Its natural enemy is the rhino, for which str8 is plenty and the AP1 is more important than the extra D6.

It's better at killing rhinos than a demolisher (and has 6" longer effective range). f you resist the temptation to put stuff you don't need on your devil dog, it's also 45 points cheaper than a naked demolisher.

But I agree there are better choices for target saturation. Armored sentinels, for example, with the same armor profile, but much cheaper.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Remember the range of the gun is 24" (not 12") and the tank can move 12" and shoot.

Put another way, the tank moves 12", and gets so that it's 12" away (so that it's in melta range), takes its single shot that still has to hit, pen, and roll in the top 50% on the damage chart (and get past a cover save if one exists). Once they've blown their load, they're now in assault range with rear armor 10, and in regular meltagun range.

Basically, they're the guard's most expensive hunter killer missile. One real good shot on a BS3 model that is likely not doing anything after.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Its natural enemy is the rhino, for which str8 is plenty and the AP1 is more important than the extra D6.

What? Devil dogs are a woefully inefficient way of taking out rhinos, especially when you have options like hydras or even autocannon scout sentinels.

I mean, I'm trying really hard to think of a use for them, but the only thing I'm drawing up at the moment is against land raider spam armies where the speed allows them to strike from out of assault ramp range, and their small blast is easier to hit, even when it misses against such a large target as a raider. Even then...

I didn't know US Marines had such an impressive stat line.

/troll

Yeah, they're pretty good. Although I hate that you have to pay for smoke launchers.

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Remember the range of the gun is 24" (not 12") and the tank can move 12" and shoot.

Put another way, the tank moves 12", and gets so that it's 12" away (so that it's in melta range), takes its single shot that still has to hit, pen, and roll in the top 50% on the damage chart (and get past a cover save if one exists). Once they've blown their load, they're now in assault range with rear armor 10, and in regular meltagun range.

Basically, they're the guard's most expensive hunter killer missile. One real good shot on a BS3 model that is likely not doing anything after.

BS3 on a plate weapon that can still penetrate on a scatter is actually very good odds. Chances are you'll blow up what you shot at and enemy will need 6s to hit in CC. Of course that'd mean being blasted by plasma vets so wouldn't they go after them instead? Or your Demolisher?

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Remember the range of the gun is 24" (not 12") and the tank can move 12" and shoot.

Put another way, the tank moves 12", and gets so that it's 12" away (so that it's in melta range)

Geometry fail, Ailaros. Meltacannon range is *24* inches. 24" range + 12" move = 36" effective range.

Ailaros wrote:...takes its single shot that still has to hit, pen, and roll in the top 50% on the damage chart (and get past a cover save if one exists)

The top 66%, since AP 1.

Ailaros wrote: Once they've blown their load, they're now in assault range with rear armor 10, and in regular meltagun range.

Not in meltagun range or assault range if they're more than 18" away.

But I was overstating in my original post.

In practice the way it works is that there's a rhino about 25-29" away from the DD at the start of the turn--which is also well out of meltagun range for the marines in the rhino. So you move the whole line up 6" (with the DDs behind your chimeras) and open the rhino with the melta cannon, which allows your multilasers and rear fire-support units to shoot at the marines instead of wasting shots trying to kill rhinos. Whether the survivors approach or stand still, it puts them in range for your chimera-mounted meltaguns and lasguns (and sometimes hull flamers), in the following turn depending how close you are.

If it weren't for the devil dog, then with that starting position you'd have to either overextend by sending up a chimera at full speed and disembarking the meltaguns to shoot (i.e. a death sentence for that infantry unit) or use up long-range firepower shooting rhinos. It extends the range of your chimera-mounted melta weapons from 18" to just under 30" and threatens all transports in that range band.

Then you can throw your long range fire and ordinance from the rear at guys who have already been blown out of their rhinos, not the rhinos themselves. Bastion-breacher Medusas are the exception. Actually that might be a better comparison to a devil dog, since the DD is only slightly less effective than a bastion-breacher medusa at ranges of 12" or less, has only a slightly shorter effective range, and has exactly the same chance of hit/miss and exactly the same odds on the damage table, but is more survivable and cheaper.

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Its natural enemy is the rhino, for which str8 is plenty and the AP1 is more important than the extra D6.

What? Devil dogs are a woefully inefficient way of taking out rhinos, especially when you have options like hydras or even autocannon scout sentinels.

Autocannons actually do struggle against AV11 sometimes--especially without AP1.

Ailaros wrote: I mean, I'm trying really hard to think of a use for them, but the only thing I'm drawing up at the moment is against land raider spam armies where the speed allows them to strike from out of assault ramp range, and their small blast is easier to hit, even when it misses against such a large target as a raider. Even then...

Actually in my experience, DDs are inconsistent against land raiders. Because you really do have to be close, and because the LR-owning player is going to do everything he can to prevent that, and because you only get the one shot, it's not as reliable as shooting long-range shots at AR10-12 vehicles. Dropping stormtroopers and meltavets are better at killing land raiders.