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For some reason I've never used Devil Dogs, and I don't seem to see them mentioned much round here.
Looking at them in the codex, 120 points for a 12/12/10 vehicle that shoots a small blast 24" melta gun, with a hull multi-laser for +15pts.
As part of a mech guard list with hyrdas, chimeras and sentinals these things could be deadly.

I was thinking of something like this:
CCS(plasma,MOTF,power fist)-155
4*veterans(plasma)-460
Devil Dog(multi-melta)*3-405
Hydra*3-225

would be devestating. There's really not much at 1250 that could deal with so many targets.

Its not really fun when the wind blows and you melta yourself, or you dont get the hole over your target

Its nearly as much as a vendetta, mind as well go for more reliable anti tank range fire power (although almost all the FA options suffer from the vendetta problem)

If the 6th ed leak is semi-accurate, the devil dog might be much more useful soon...

kenshin620 wrote:Its not really fun when the wind blows and you melta yourself, or you dont get the hole over your target

Its nearly as much as a vendetta, mind as well go for more reliable anti tank range fire power (although almost all the FA options suffer from the vendetta problem)

Chance of it blowing back at you is tiny, you'd have to be within 9 inches and scatter completely back into yourself.
Also the Devil Dog is fast, so it can move 12" and fire its weapon. I think a few of these would make Land Raiders think twice.

Joey wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Its not really fun when the wind blows and you melta yourself, or you dont get the hole over your target

Chance of it blowing back at you is tiny, you'd have to be within 9 inches and scatter completely back into yourself.

There's also the "I don't do to vehicles unless I get that hole over the vehicle" thing. And blowing back into you is a bigger chance than you think. Alot of my games played/witnessed have had some danger close firing

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Its not really fun when the wind blows and you melta yourself, or you dont get the hole over your target

Chance of it blowing back at you is tiny, you'd have to be within 9 inches and scatter completely back into yourself.

There's also the "I don't do to vehicles unless I get that hole over the vehicle" thing. And blowing back into you is a bigger chance than you think. Alot of my games played/witnessed have had some danger close firing

Half strength will still hurt at half range, 4+2d6 damage isn't bad, you'd need 7+ to damage a rhino.

7 is your average roll.


Yes, like you said- it makes a landraider think twice.


waaaaiiiitt...

Jihallah wrote:7 is your average roll.


Yes, like you said- it makes a landraider think twice.


waaaaiiiitt...

It can move six and fire both. On average one of them will hit and need 6+ on two dice to damage it, and with AP1 there's a good chance of doing it some serious damage.
I'm going to bring 3 of these to my next game and hope my opponant is curtious enough to field 2 Land Raiders.

Meh, you're spending how much on a pair of slow multimeltas? On how fragile of a vehicle?

This vehicle pretty well falls into 40k's golden rule - if it's a threat it will be destroyed; if not, it will be ignored. Either way, you're not getting much. Given that the devil dog falls into this hole worse than other units, there's a reason most guard commanders don't take them.

Ailaros wrote:Meh, you're spending how much on a pair of slow multimeltas? On how fragile of a vehicle?

This vehicle pretty well falls into 40k's golden rule - if it's a threat it will be destroyed; if not, it will be ignored. Either way, you're not getting much. Given that the devil dog falls into this hole worse than other units, there's a reason most guard commanders don't take them.

As part of a mech list though, when there'd be a couple of Demolishers and 3-4 Hydras vying for enemy firepower. Remember they can move 6 and shoot both or 12 and shoot one, so hide them behind buildings/cover and swing them round when the enemy armour rears into view. AV 12 with cover is capable of withstanding a fair bit of firepower.

Joey wrote:As part of a mech list though, when there'd be a couple of Demolishers and 3-4 Hydras vying for enemy firepower.

Doesn't matter. Either they will be more threatening than the demolishers and hydras and thus will be opened up first, or they will be less threatening than demolishers and hydras and thus won't be contributing much (your opponent would be ignoring them precisely because of how little damage they would do to his particular list.

And moving 6" is slow. Moving 12" to shoot the one isn't so bad, but you're talking single-shot BS3 here, which isn't exactly reliable. For a lot of points.

... in the FA slot. A HMM devil dog costs as much as a vendetta or three lascannon scout sentinels, either of which I'd take before the devil dog.

I've used them in multiple games, and when it hits its absolutely devastating to anything, but if it scatters its a waste of an entire unit's shooting. Its definitely a lot of fun, but if you want to have a "blast" (heh heh) then it definitely is a choice to consider.

Devil dogs, and really all the hellhound varients are good choices.
Their decently armored, with 12 on the sides. They have good templates, and can bring a lot of punch to your army.
Here is the problem, however....

Vendetta's are great choices. For roughly the same cost, you get 3 TL LC, Scout, Skimmer, Fast, and the ability to carry troops.
In fact, they are such great choices, there is no reason to take the hellhounds.

Maybe if the squadren rules in 6th edition turn out to be accurate, we will see some hellhound squads, but today the vendettas are just much better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihallah wrote:7 is your average roll.

Yes, like you said- it makes a landraider think twice.

waaaaiiiitt...

You can accomplish the same thing with a demolisher LRBT, which is in a different slot. That STR 10, 2d6 dice gives a much greater chance of penetration.

The hull on a LR is huge, so you need to deviate ~4" (depending on the exact direction of the scatter) to go off. That means you hit more often than you miss on a LR

I use devil dogs standard in my mech armies.

They drive behind the chimera wall and lob shots over the tops of the chimeras. They fill a gap in the AT range bands between the long-range guns at the back, and the chimera-mounted meltas (IG don't really have any other way to access multimelta except for hellhound variants). Rhinos are the main target, and even with a scatter you can still kill rhinos more reliably than a multilaser--the AP1 is an important part of this. So devil dogs create a credible threat to transports that are trying to set up in the range band just outside melta range for a run at your chimera wall.

I use a hull heavy flamer on them, which gives them a role against hordes, and also makes them useful even after all the AT targets are dead. The 12" + shoot makes the hull flamer more useful than the slow flamer on chimeras and other tanks.

The flamer + meltacannon combo makes them not only the cheapest hellhound variant, but also makes them a threat to everybody all the time. All my opponents try to shoot them first, which is why they hide behind the chimeras for cover saves.

Also they're great for tank shocking (because they're fast).

My personal problem with vendettas is that there's no way to hide the thing. Most IG players wind up starting their vendettas off the table, then it flies on the board (having to move more than 6" to get on the table, so can only shoot one weapon) takes its one shot, then gets nailed the following turn.

So it's a tradeoff for two tanks that play a similar role and cost about the same. Vendettas are more accurate and have more firepower, but devil dogs--working with chimeras--are more survivable.

labmouse42 wrote:Devil dogs, and really all the hellhound varients are good choices.
Their decently armored, with 12 on the sides. They have good templates, and can bring a lot of punch to your army.
Here is the problem, however....

Vendetta's are great choices. For roughly the same cost, you get 3 TL LC, Scout, Skimmer, Fast, and the ability to carry troops.
In fact, they are such great choices, there is no reason to take the hellhounds.

Maybe if the squadren rules in 6th edition turn out to be accurate, we will see some hellhound squads, but today the vendettas are just much better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihallah wrote:7 is your average roll.

Yes, like you said- it makes a landraider think twice.

waaaaiiiitt...

You can accomplish the same thing with a demolisher LRBT, which is in a different slot. That STR 10, 2d6 dice gives a much greater chance of penetration.

The hull on a LR is huge, so you need to deviate ~4" (depending on the exact direction of the scatter) to go off. That means you hit more often than you miss on a LR

Well HellHounds are much easier to proxy, but i agree three TL Lascannons would be better.

labmouse42 wrote:

waaaaiiiitt...You can accomplish the same thing with a demolisher LRBT, which is in a different slot. That STR 10, 2d6 dice gives a much greater chance of penetration.

Let's be clear on a key difference here. A meltacannon at half range gets +2d6 penetration. A demolisher cannon gets to roll two 1d6 and pick the higher. That works out about the same to damage if the hole doesn't scatter off, but if the hole scatters off, then a demolisher can never get more than 5+6=11 max on the pen roll, whereas a meltacannon can still get up to 4+12=16 (with more than half of the results being 11 or better). That's why a devil dog is good against rhinos--because it doesn't need a solid hit, and also it's AP1.

labmouse42 wrote:
The hull on a LR is huge, so you need to deviate ~4" (depending on the exact direction of the scatter) to go off. That means you hit more often than you miss on a LR

Demolishers get more off-hole hits than meltacannons because the blast is larger. But the odds of having the *hole* over any given tank after the scatter are exactly the same for both weapons--the hole is the same size on both templates.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Let's be clear on a key difference here. A meltacannon at half range gets +2d6 penetration. A demolisher cannon gets to roll two 1d6 and pick the higher. That works out about the same to damage if the hole doesn't scatter off, but if the hole scatters off, then a demolisher can never get more than 5+6=11 max on the pen roll, whereas a meltacannon can still get up to 4+12=16 (with more than half of the results being 11 or better). That's why a devil dog is good against rhinos--because it doesn't need a solid hit, and also it's AP1.

I agree with everything you said sir.
The reason I mentioned the demolisher is that it comes out a different slot, as fast attacks are often taken by Vendettas.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Demolishers get more off-hole hits than meltacannons because the blast is larger. But the odds of having the *hole* over any given tank after the scatter are exactly the same for both weapons--the hole is the same size on both templates.

Again, we are in agreement.
I mentioned this to illustrate how templates can be effective on a large target such as a LR.

I look at them, then I look at plasma cannon armored sentinals......that can tarpit, that cost 81 points with smoke and searchlights, that have a 3 foot range, oh and they can run if they have to and come with extra armor.

If they were AV 13 on the front I'd take them. (That 12 on the side....whoop dee doo, everything can still kill it.)

It's a glass cannon for sure, and damn it'd be fun. (Half the time when it's not blowing up)

And to the person hating on blast templates. Do the math, BS 3 is much worse then rolling to scatter.

sfshilo wrote:I look at them, then I look at plasma cannon armored sentinals......that can tarpit, that cost 81 points with smoke and searchlights, that have a 3 foot range, oh and they can run if they have to and come with extra armor.

If they were AV 13 on the front I'd take them. (That 12 on the side....whoop dee doo, everything can still kill it.)

It's a glass cannon for sure, and damn it'd be fun. (Half the time when it's not blowing up)

And to the person hating on blast templates. Do the math, BS 3 is much worse then rolling to scatter.

I'm not sure if I'm the person hating on blast templates, but the math I've seen says BS3 is about the same against vehicles with blast or direct-fire weapons, except against land raiders which are easier to hit with BS3 blasts (as labmouse pointed out).

I've also used armored sentinels as fire support units walking behind chimeras, but then I have to swap my heavy choices. With devil dogs, I like autocannons in the heavy slots (hydras, exterminators) because I need more light armor AT. With sentinels I use high-strength ordinance heavies (basilisk, manticore--medusas would also work) because that build lacks anti-heavy AT.

sfshilo wrote:

And to the person hating on blast templates. Do the math, BS 3 is much worse then rolling to scatter.

This.

BS 3 Blast weapons have right at a 50% chance of hitting within one inch of the initial target, and when shooting at parking lots it generally has about a 75% chance of hitting something.

Flavius Infernus wrote:They drive behind the chimera wall and lob shots over the tops of the chimeras.

So, you use them in such a way that you give your opponents cover saves? The main problem with devil dogs is how little killing power they have for their points. Halving that hardly seems helpful to fixing that.

Ive been taking a devil dog with a MM ever since i played guard. My opponents usually dont direct that much fire at it, and it has taken down many vehicles. I think it is a good option, not as good as a vendetta, but i still take 1.

dajobe wrote:My opponents usually dont direct that much fire at it, and it has taken down many vehicles.

Then either it's getting more fire than you think, it's not taking down as many vehicles as you think, or your opponents are being dummies by not shooting at one of your most effective units.

... or you're getting really lucky with how poorly your opponents are rolling against them.

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:They drive behind the chimera wall and lob shots over the tops of the chimeras.

So, you use them in such a way that you give your opponents cover saves? The main problem with devil dogs is how little killing power they have for their points. Halving that hardly seems helpful to fixing that.

This is 5th edition. Shooting over another model doesn't grant the target an automatic cover save anymore. As long as the gun has a clear line of sight to more than 50% of the target, no cover save.

Since both the chimera and the devil dog move every turn, it's easy to line up these shots in the movement phase.

Ailaros wrote:

dajobe wrote:My opponents usually dont direct that much fire at it, and it has taken down many vehicles.

Then either it's getting more fire than you think, it's not taking down as many vehicles as you think, or your opponents are being dummies by not shooting at one of your most effective units.

... or you're getting really lucky with how poorly your opponents are rolling against them.

Autocannon will need 6s to penetrate, lascannons will need 4s, with a cover save that means an autocannon and lascannon(presuming they both hit thanks to BS4 Twin-Linked) would each damage 1/3 of the time. It'd probably be difficult to take out more than one per turn and your opponant would have to get lucky on his damage rolls.

I've used them a lot, but not much for AT, more for killing termies, meganobz, and such. That was until I discovered how much I LOVE the Medusa.

Also, AV 12 is substantial, it means that small arms cannot touch you. Not even heavy bolters nor my Fire Warriors awesome, awesome, rifles. Hell, since S6 or higher is needed to scratch it, even multilas won't work.

Devil Dogs are good, it's just that they aren't needed when you have things like Leman Russes, and Hellhounds are the best Hellhound variant.

Captain Destructo wrote:Devil Dogs are good, it's just that they aren't needed when you have things like Leman Russes, and Hellhounds are the best Hellhound variant.

No Leman Russ can spit out 2 melta weapons. The melta Leman Russ varient (can't remember its name) is still a BS3 shot, so it'll miss 50% of the time, and your enemy will probably get a cover save.
Devil Dogs will destroy any vehicle that gets within 12" of it, and can butcher MEQ from 24" with the small blast multi-melta.

Ailaros wrote:Either they will be more threatening than the demolishers and hydras and thus will be opened up first, or they will be less threatening than demolishers and hydras and thus won't be contributing much (your opponent would be ignoring them precisely because of how little damage they would do to his particular list.

This is tremendously flawed. You imply that if a unit is not constantly the most threatening thing on the board it isn't worth taking. You entirely miss the point of target saturation: your opponent has finite resources, and his neglect of an element of your army is the lesser of two evils. A Demolisher may be more threatening than a Devil Dog, but effectiveness is relative to the price; Devil Dogs are cheaper, so can afford to be less effective. Then, of course, your model doesn't take into account positioning and spheres of influence.

Way back when the current IG book hit the tourney scene the top players were divided into two camps: Devil Dogs and artillery. The former found that Meltavets often die after moving in to attack, making objective games harder. The Devil Dog had the dual effect of saturating their forward force and relieved the Meltavets of their more dangerous duties.

In practice, taking two Meltaguns wastes the points you payed for the Fast type. Take a hull-mounted Flamer to keep it effective against infantry. The Devil Dog is fast enough to be your sole form of anti-tank, so your remaining points should go to killing the infantry that fall out. Hydras are unnecessary; try for Griffons or Leman Russes instead.

Putting a heavy flamer on one would be silly. If it's not shooting at vehicles/MEQ, it's not doing its job. Maybe on turn 4/5 to rush an objective but I'd still rather have a multi-melta as a back-up.
Agree about mech lists, especially if you have a couple of leman russes too. Then your enemy has to split his limited AT between Leman Russes, which would have a small chance of penetrating anyway, or AV12s.